Originally posted by CalmOceans

 

In case I'm wrong..Cross server grouping does two things, it breaks up the community because you're now playing with people you will never see again, and it allows people to get away with misbehavior in groups since they have unlimited grouping opportunities.

Why can't you have friend on other server?  I play GW2 and all my friend are on different server.  But we are still friend who regularlly chat.  And do dungeon together.

Stop thinking as cross server and think it as a mega server.  If my friend from other server want to do a dungeon he just send me a whisper and of we go.

Grouping with random strangers fosters a silent/stfu/get-in/get-out-with-loot-as-fast-as-possible mentality which destroys community.

Yep. There is a world of difference between groups in early EQ and groups now.

People nowadays just ditch the group if after 10 seconds you're not killing mobs. In Everquest you could say to the group "give me 5 minutes please, I'm on my new PC and setting up my keys", and people would usually be ok with this. Nowadays people throw a hissy fit if they can't cram as much XP into 30 minutes as possible.

I wonder how that generation of players would deal with early Everquest where you had to wait 30 minutes for a boat to arrive, they would probably lose it and throw their screen out of the window or something. Most people are so direct and rude in new MMO. Not even saying hi anymore, not even talking anymore, no respect for new players, etc.

Originally posted by simmihi

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Cross server grouping does two things, it breaks up the community because you're now playing with people you will never see again, and it allows people to get away with misbehavior in groups since they have unlimited grouping opportunities.

Does more things also. Helps me get a group fast when i have only 45min-1h to play, which happens a lot with age for most of us. No LFG tool for me equals playing (mostly) alone. How is that more social than leveling with others, evein if I don't meet them ever again?

I understand that, I understand that there are people who both want to group and do it in a really short time period.

But also understand that not all games are for you. In Everquest you had to wait 20-30 minutes just to get on a boat, and travel for 30 minutes just to get to a group, that is if you didn't die along the way.

My issue is that some players with your time constraints expect every MMO they play to have easymode access to groups and fast travel. I do not go into PVP games saying I want a PVE only game, but many players from WoW and other games come into certain games and whine until they have easy access gameplay (good example Vanguard).

Some of us want a meaningful instead of fleeting experience.

Originally posted by Xthos

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Xthos

I think the cross server LFG tool is the worst, I am not a big fan of the tool as it is, but if it was atleast confined to the server you play on, it would better.....Sure the cross server type may be quick to get the group, but I think you sacrifice your server community in the process.

 

I think multiples things ruin the community, the move to everyone can solo most content, with railed quest hubs isn't doing much for it either.

 

I don't care about a server community. The game community is bigger and better. Why restrict to a single server? If the goal is to make friends, have a bigger pool.

Cross server LFG tool is the best. In fact, it would be even better to have cross GAME lfg tool. At least we have some cross game social tools like friend list.

Looking over your posts, you are either:

1. someone who purpously trolls topics to get a rise out of people by posting the opposite of what everyone has experienced

2. someone very new to MMO

I'm going to guess 1, since you purpously seem to want to instigate by posting controversial and misguided opinions.

In case I'm wrong..Cross server grouping does two things, it breaks up the community because you're now playing with people you will never see again, and it allows people to get away with misbehavior in groups since they have unlimited grouping opportunities.

He has already stated that he doesn't care about the groups he plays with, and quits out of games at the drop of a dime, since they are made to be fun, so I think I will ignore any social gaming advice from someone that most people would not want to play with. 

His type of fun=ruining others fun, I am not saying a game is more important than rl, but to not even care if you are screwing over other people that are real people too.  They are trying to play and have fun also, not to be online and treated like a npc and if you screw them over, who cares?

When most of them are no better, and sometimes even worse, one must ask:  why the hell should he care?  This, again, goes back to my previous point:  LFG isn't the problem.  People are the problem.

No, LFG didnt ruin games communities. People ruined communities.

The reality is, its all about who is playing the game. In the past, only people with LOTS of time played mmos. Now, people with very limited time play, and so the "community" suffers because they appear to be dicks about efficient use of time.

Its really that simple.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by simmihi

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Cross server grouping does two things, it breaks up the community because you're now playing with people you will never see again, and it allows people to get away with misbehavior in groups since they have unlimited grouping opportunities.

Does more things also. Helps me get a group fast when i have only 45min-1h to play, which happens a lot with age for most of us. No LFG tool for me equals playing (mostly) alone. How is that more social than leveling with others, evein if I don't meet them ever again?

I understand that, I understand that there are people who both want to group and do it in a really short time period.

But also understand that not all games are for you. In Everquest you had to wait 20-30 minutes just to get on a boat, and travel for 30 minutes just to get to a group, that is if you didn't die along the way.

My issue is that some players with your time constraints expect every MMO they play to have easymode access to groups and fast travel. I do not go into PVP games saying I want a PVE only game, but many players from WoW and other games come into certain games and whine until they have easy access gameplay (good example Vanguard).

Some of us want a meaningful instead of fleeting experience.

There is no reason why you can't have a very very long game, that takes years to finish but have the tasks/quest/events... broken up into short segments, just multiple, multiple segments.

And/or

I have nothing against long play times.  We just typically will not play those games,  but when the devs start breaking them into chunks to get us, don't blame us, we aren't demanding anything of the devs, they are trying to attract us. 

Istaria's adult dragon quest, orginally was about 10-12 hours (alot was figuring it out, now I can do it in about 4-5 hours), however there was about 15 parts to it, each part only took 15 minutes to an hour, depending on how good and prepped you were.  This was a classic, epic quest.  Loved it. 

I"m told the ancient quest is even longer, but I've never done that one.

Originally posted by Aroton

No, LFG didnt ruin games communities. People ruined communities.

The reality is, its all about who is playing the game. In the past, only people with LOTS of time played mmos. Now, people with very limited time play, and so the "community" suffers because they appear to be dicks about efficient use of time.

Its really that simple.

A lot could be solved if there were just a few selectable options on these tools:

• Pro-player (prefer fast, expert runs)
• Casual/social (prefer chat and leisurely pace) 
• Beginner/experimental (teaching newbies or trying new tactics)
• RP (roleplaying group)

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by Aroton

No, LFG didnt ruin games communities. People ruined communities.

The reality is, its all about who is playing the game. In the past, only people with LOTS of time played mmos. Now, people with very limited time play, and so the "community" suffers because they appear to be dicks about efficient use of time.

Its really that simple.

A lot could be solved if there were just a few selectable options on these tools:

• Pro-player (prefer fast, expert runs)
• Casual/social (prefer chat and leisurely pace) 
• Beginner/experimental (teaching newbies or trying new tactics)
• RP (roleplaying group)

Maybe integrate a chat channel that allows players to greet before entering the instance.

I definately agree with this. I think a great solution is paring people with similar play styles.

That actually sounds really great.

Voted yes, but iit's not that simple.  

Being able to LFD, dungeons being instanced, insta-travel, a holy trinity system that creates a few high demand classes...

Such Games might be lobbies for dungeon runners.

But not everyone plays that way, and some people would never see dungeon content otherwise.

Overall, game mechanics don't ruin a community, players do, but some mechanics might make it easier to do so...promoting a certain mindset.

LFG did not ruin the community. It simply made things faster. Faster does not mean easier content. It just means I get to see that content with out all of the BS. Standing around and shouting in a chat channel is not fun for me. Traveling for 15 mins to get to the dungeon is not fun for me. Grouping with a bunch of people that would rather be in a chat room instead of killing things is not fun for me. 

I am not some kind of "leet" or "pro" player. I'm just a normal guy who has limited time to play and when I do I want to feel like I have actually done something. I work strange hours and a lot of times my friends and family are not on so I have to run solo.  With out a LFG tool I'm pretty much screwed. 

So maybe as I got older I have become a more casual player. Maybe its people like me who have ruined the community in games. It's possible I guess. I just want to play games. I don't want to make friends. I don't want to meet new people. I don't want to hear about your problems. I don't care about what gear you need. I just want to kill the boss and be on my way.

To me running a dungeon is like going to a store. Just because there are people there I don't need to talk to all of them. I don't need to make friends everytime I go to walmart. I'm not rude. Im not a douche bag to people. I just don't have a need or the desire to be social. I am at the store for a reason. I want to accomplish my task and leave. Thats the way I feel about running a dungeon or a raid. I believe in communication. I believe in working as a cohesive team to accomplish our goal. I just want to stay focused on that goal so we can part ways as quickly as possible.

I'm not saying that I think everyone should feel the same way. If you want a more social experience knock yourself out. I'm cool with that. Go stand in a major city and shout in chat that you want to put together a group. If you want to spend 15 mins traveling to a dungeon find some like minded people and go do it. If you don't like LFG tools than simply don't use them. Just don't try to make me play the game the way you want it to be played.

Originally posted by GreenHell

 Grouping with a bunch of people that would rather be in a chat room instead of killing things is not fun for me. 

 I'm just a normal guy who has limited time to play and when I do I want to feel like I have actually done something.

I don't want to make friends. I don't want to meet new people.

I don't want to hear about your problems.

why do you even play MMO then though....you don't want to chat... you don't want to make friends...you don't want to meet new people....you don't want to listen to people

no offense but what you're asking for is a single player game

Originally posted by GreenHell

To me running a dungeon is like going to a store. Just because there are people there I don't need to talk to all of them. I don't need to make friends everytime I go to walmart. I'm not rude. Im not a douche bag to people. I just don't have a need or the desire to be social. I am at the store for a reason. I want to accomplish my task and leave. Thats the way I feel about running a dungeon or a raid. I believe in communication. I believe in working as a cohesive team to accomplish our goal. I just want to stay focused on that goal so we can part ways as quickly as possible.

Could have fooled me.

If someone wants to group with others I expect those people to have the courtesy to say hi and to at least introduce themselves.

Why people who do not want to talk, do not want to socialise and don't even care about other people want to play with other people is beyond my comprehension.

You are a good candidate for battle arena games like League of Legends, but I have no idea why you would want to play MMO when you don't seem to even like other people.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by simmihi

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Cross server grouping does two things, it breaks up the community because you're now playing with people you will never see again, and it allows people to get away with misbehavior in groups since they have unlimited grouping opportunities.

Does more things also. Helps me get a group fast when i have only 45min-1h to play, which happens a lot with age for most of us. No LFG tool for me equals playing (mostly) alone. How is that more social than leveling with others, evein if I don't meet them ever again?

I understand that, I understand that there are people who both want to group and do it in a really short time period.

But also understand that not all games are for you. In Everquest you had to wait 20-30 minutes just to get on a boat, and travel for 30 minutes just to get to a group, that is if you didn't die along the way.

My issue is that some players with your time constraints expect every MMO they play to have easymode access to groups and fast travel. I do not go into PVP games saying I want a PVE only game, but many players from WoW and other games come into certain games and whine until they have easy access gameplay (good example Vanguard).

Some of us want a meaningful instead of fleeting experience.

Well, what can I say except that, as far as I know, the games having a LFD tool do not "force" you into using it. You still can do your things in your own way, while I can do mine in my way. I've never understood the "against LFD" argument "a LFD tool is bad because everyone will start using it and the game will lose its tedious and time consuming approach which I love". 

Then there is the "if i have to spend a lot of time on it, then it becomes more meaningful". If that's the case, there are other solutions. Anarchy Online has (well, at least it used to have, no idea how it is now) server wide raids which took 30-90min. They took place at some fixed hours, you knew when you "had to" log in. People used DKP. Even if the raid was short, it took someone months or even years to get "everything" they wanted from the raids. I'd love to see that system again in games.

For the "community" part alone, I'm sorry, but I'm not primarly looking to "create a community", I'm looking to have fun. That does not mean that I'm not curteous, nice and kind, or that I'm lazy, slacking etc. I love great communities, but I strongly believe that they develop around what the games have to offer in terms of content, setting, approach, atmosphere and systems, not that much influenced by the LFD tool. For example, I don't believe that a LFD tool would ruin TSW's community, and on the other hand, it would make me play that game more.

There are solutions for everyone, and a game with LFD is for me just an improved version of the same game without LFD, because i see it as what it is, just a tool. Does not mean that i will not group in guild or with friends, or even start an old school pick up group if i want to.

Originally posted by simmihi

Well, what can I say except that, as far as I know, the games having a LFD tool do not "force" you into using it.

That's a straw man argument.

When a server has a 2000 player capacity, and there is a 1000 player influx of people who only want to group for 30 minutes and zergrush the content with others through LFD tools, then you just made our server half the size.

I don't go asking in PVP games to remove PVP, so why are you asking my game to be changed to meet your need.

How about you play a game with LFD tools and leave the game that don't have it alone, since each time there is no LFD tool, the WoW and ADD crowd starts whining about it.

You have the biggest MMO in the world with LFD tools, it's called WoW.

If a game doesn't have an easy access LFD tool, maybe the game, isn't for you.

Originally posted by simmihi

For the "community" part alone, I'm sorry, but I'm not primarly looking to "create a community", I'm looking to have fun.

That's fine, there are many action games for you like League of Legends.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by GreenHell

 Grouping with a bunch of people that would rather be in a chat room instead of killing things is not fun for me. 

 I'm just a normal guy who has limited time to play and when I do I want to feel like I have actually done something.

I don't want to make friends. I don't want to meet new people.

I don't want to hear about your problems.

why do you even play MMO then though....you don't want to chat... you don't want to make friends...you don't want to meet new people....you don't want to listen to people

no offense but what you're asking for is a single player game

I could just as easily ask you why you bother to play an MMO. Look at the things you asked me and ask yourself why you play any game at all. If those things are so important to you why not save yourself $15 a month and just go on facebook.

Massively multiplayer online role-playing game..where in there does it say I have to be or even should be social. I do interact with other players. I have to. I interact in a very polite way when there is a need. I just don't go looking for social interaction.

As a player I am always prepared. I pull good numbers. I look up fights if it's my first time running a dungeon or raid. I research my class. I do everything that I am supposed to. I do my part to make sure that we are successful. So why do I need to be your friend?

I play an MMO so I can play with my RL friends and family in a persistent world. It is cheap entertainment and it's fun. Sometimes I play just because Im bored it's 3am and all of the people with normal schedules are sleeping. Why does it matter why I play an MMO or how much time I have to play it? Do I need to be a basement dweller in order for my opinion to matter? Is it because I just don't play the game like you do?

Next time you go to the store try having the same social experience there that you want to have in a MMO. Just go up to a complete stranger and start a conversation. Start telling them your problems or what you need. Why is it so much different from the real world to a MMO? Is it just because its "safe" in a mmo? No risk? Whats the difference? There is a bunch of people in one place. Why am I supposed to act differently in a game and why is it such an alien idea to behave the same way in a MMO as you do in the real world?

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by simmihi

Well, what can I say except that, as far as I know, the games having a LFD tool do not "force" you into using it.

That's a straw man argument.

When a server has a 2000 player capacity, and there is a 1000 player influx of people who only want to group for 30 minutes and zergrush the content with others through LFD tools, then you just made our server half the size.

I don't go asking in PVP games to removed PVP, so why are you asking my game to be changed to meet your need.

How about you play a game with LFD tools and leave the game that don't have it alone, since each time there is no LFD tools, the WoW and ADD crowd starts whining about it.

You have the biggest MMO in the world with LFD tools, it's called WoW.

If a game doesn't have an easy access LFD tool, maybe the game, isn't for you.

If the LFD was not there, the 1000 people willing to group only for 30 minutes won't be there also. If there's an influx of 1000 players out of 2000 (practically, doubling the paying customers for the company) only because of the LFD tool, and you say it's bad for your game, then there's no point in us arguing, we definitely see things differently.

Comparing open PvP (which is core game attribute) to LFD (a tool for easy-access to some parts of the game) feels to me like comparing apples and oranges.

I know a lot of games without LFD tools that I'd like to play, unfortunately they're kind of dead, barren. The reason why most games implement LFD tools is that they keep the game alive. I'm sure GW2 and TSW will bring LFD tools soon enough, and that will happen probably because that tool brings extra value, the win is greater than the presumed "loss".