Trending Games | ArcheAge | World of Warcraft | Elder Scrolls Online | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,923,670 Users Online:0
Games:760  Posts:6,317,437
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » micro, macro, why all the transactions?

2 Pages « 1 2 Search
40 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20720

3/15/13 5:59:52 PM#21
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by jandrsn
So what does it cost to actually make a decent game? I live in minnesota, we just threw over 500 million to a vikings stadium, but we can't find out what theteam owner grosses in any year. By my calculations, based on 100 grand a year for the best available talent, 9 thousand subs pays for that, at 15 US a month, disregarding local taxes. What kind of profit margin do you need to proceed with a game?

That's 100k x five year development cycle x say 50 people average = 25m for a lower end AAA MMORPG. If you get 200k players buying a box that's 6m to the developers. That leave 19m to get back, if 100k players stick at 15 a month it would take 1 years to pay back the investment, that doesn't take into account the running costs and advertising needed and doesn't take into account the returns you could have got investing elsewhere over the 6 years.

Basically if you invest 25m you need to have a success to get any return.

And 200k is pretty much a failure for any AAA game. Even games like AOC sold like 700k out of the gate.

My guess is when companies are considering 25-50M type investment, they don't do it on a whim. There will be market research, and what-not.

  jandrsn

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/06
Posts: 190

 
OP  3/15/13 6:00:40 PM#22
>There is no cash price for a house in RG's game. What you are looking at is an item from a list of 12 rewards for a donation level in a Kickstarter campaign. Why no one else noticed that your argument begins on a flawed premise is beyond me.

 

Oh sorry, guess a $500 dollar investment isn't a pay to get something scheme, it's a user friendly bonus?
  Jenuviel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/05
Posts: 958

Sadness is but a wall between two gardens. -Kahlil Gibran

3/15/13 6:00:57 PM#23
Originally posted by Yyrkoon_PoM
Originally posted by Jenuviel
-snip-

 

Alot of what you say is true, and games should not be costing more money to build, but for some odd reason they are. The salaray numbers have alot of wiggle room depending on where the company is located. I know that in LA your average mid level programmer (not even a lead programmer) is making closer to $90k with the average lead making  near the $120k. So your companies like Activision, Sony, Blizzard, Trion are paying a bit more.

Couple that with the poor economy and alot of companies are trying to do the same with less staff. that introduces the increased chance for those things like bugs to get caught later and later in the dev cycle so it ends up being more of a case of being nibbled to death by ducks. Skyrim is a good example, I believe that they only had a QA team of a dozen or so staff testers (which helps explain why it had a fair number of big bugs that should have been caught before it shipped). It needed to sell alot of games to make money.  Kingdom of Amalur was another example of a game that had to sell lots of copies to make a profit.

While not a new thing to the gaming industry feature creep caused by the execs/investors seems to be getting worse. In the past creep was usually came about internally from the team members (mostly the ooo shiny! moments), but lately I am seeing more and more suits making noise at the design/brainstorming/user story sessions.

Some companies in the industry are also willing to invest more money into a game than they were in the past, so while the individual parts like labor, advertising, publishing, engines, ... are cheaper the extra money gets spent in other places, in the hopes of making more money. It is the philosopy of "if we spend more we will make a better game."

 

 

Great insight, thanks for that, Yyrkoon. I really should have realized the regional salary differences would be an issue, but It didn't even occur to me that feature creep had shifted from an interior source to an exterior one. It's a lot easier to reign it in when the source is close to the ground, but very difficult when the source is a grand piano suspended over your head by a string of store-brand dental floss.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/15/13 6:04:09 PM#24
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aerowyn
is there such a thing as a P2P MMO without some sort of micro transactions? i can't think of any off the top of my head

WOW. You can buy $10 pet and $25 mounts.

i said "without".. yea WoW has tons of microtransactions besides just the pets and mounts.. last I remember you cna pay to change race, faction, all sorts of stuff

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

3/15/13 6:04:21 PM#25
Originally posted by asmkm22
You have to do microtransactions when so many players refuse to pay for subscriptions.  Everyone wants the game to be "free" to play.  We brought this on ourselves.

A game has to be free to play first before anyone can refuse to pay for a subscription.  They're the ones who put the model out there, gamers were just stupid enough to fall for it.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Yyrkoon_PoM

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 150

3/15/13 6:19:17 PM#26
Originally posted by jandrsn
So what does it cost to actually make a decent game? I live in minnesota, we just threw over 500 million to a vikings stadium, but we can't find out what theteam owner grosses in any year. By my calculations, based on 100 grand a year for the best available talent, 9 thousand subs pays for that, at 15 US a month, disregarding local taxes. What kind of profit margin do you need to proceed with a game?

38 Studios is a recent example of a company that ran out of money while trying to make an MMO ... I beleive they were over $200M in debt even after Curt Chilling spent $50M of his own money.  Your $100,000/year might only cover 1 programmer , and that would only be his salary ... add onto that his benefits and then multiply it by a dozen since you might need to start with that many more programmers  to build a sub game. Now comes the artisits that could add up to 30? more people to your team ... now the HR people, Marketing people, QA, designers, CEOs, CFOs, CTOs .... your $100,000 a year is now about $3M/month. Now expand that out 5 to 6 years for an MMO now you are at  $180M to $216M assuming you did not hire any more talent.

Other PC games run cheaper because you need less in terms of staff, and they take less time to make 6month to a year in development seems about average for a mid sized game. You can still wind up spending $30M to $60M if you are not thrifty with your budgets.

I am not saying all MMO/PC games take millions of dollars to make, but that recent games like the Star Wars MMO and Skyrim are expensive to make.

I am not sure what the expected profit margins are to be considered good, but software companies are usually in the top 3 industries when it comes to profit margins, so expect 20%+ ... I think somewhere in the above posts 30% was mentioned and that would not surprise me.

The days of 250,000 subs being good are long gone and left in the era before 2004 and WoW.

  jandrsn

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/06
Posts: 190

 
OP  3/15/13 8:19:16 PM#27
I'm curious how much the liscensing fees are for these 250 million dollar games. That's a lot of 50 grand a year people over several years; without said IP would the same game cost even 25 million? Would a brand new world done by bioware as an mmorpg cost nearly as much as swtor did? And the extra bonus of avoiding lucasarts as a ' partner' ....
  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3888

RIP City of Heroes!

3/16/13 3:47:39 AM#28
Originally posted by Sovrath

My thought is that developers, regardless of how small or large have a plan (and hopefully it's good). And if they are smart they have a good business plan.

They figure out their budget, they then figure out how much money they want/need to make and they figure out how to monetize their game.

Then the fun begins.

There are delays, maybe bad managment or maybe they run into issues where they find that what they wanted doesn't work or doesn't work well. They have to change their plans and that runs into delays whch then create budget issues. Maybe they figure out that they need a certain software product because what they want to do doesn't quite work  with the tools at hand.

They might have to hire new people which costs additional money because of advertising, recruiting agencies and loss of productivity as the people interviewing have to stop what they are doing to do interviews.

I can't tell you how many articles i've read about game developers that folded because they ran out of money. Honestly, the more I read about the industry the more I wonder why people continue to seek it out or continue to invest in it!

Then they launch their game and they hope to get sales/subscribers or a good amount of people playing who "hopefully" will use their cash shop.

Additionaly, when you see salaries you have to realize that the salary you see is not what the employer is paying. The employer is paying much more than someone's 55k per year. Payroll taxes, benefits, worker's comp, training, etc. I tall adds up.

So when I see companies trying to figure out how to get more income, it doesn't come as a suprise. Espeically because 15.99 per month is not what it used to be because of inflation. It's not surprising that companies are desperate to find new revenue streams.

Now, having said that I did say that there are some scummy companies and I meant it. There is a difference between paying what is not only fair but what is going to get a good return for their efforts and gouging the customers.

I just wouldn't assume that just because a company is charing for  the box and has a sub and has a cash shop that they are automatically gouging you. It might just mean that they don't have enough players to keep the game afloat and the cash shop is a way to keep them running.

Heck, even GW2 has a cash shop and they are the original "buy the box and play with no extra money" company.

 

 You are correct that they have a plan for the money flow so they can budget resources.  They can't just make a game then decide how to pay for it at release.  The monthly subfee is small compared to so many other hobbies and hasn't been adjusted for inflation.  Salaries have inflated and are often the highest fixed expenses for most companies.

  User Deleted
3/16/13 5:15:30 AM#29

Its a business, not a charity. Some of the prices seem a bit off lately, because the industry is still new. Compare smartphone costs today to what they were when first released, not even in the same ballpark.

Over time costs will lower to meet a happy medium between sales numbers and price, but it takes time.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/16/13 10:25:00 AM#30

The number of bankrupt game companies in the last year has been fairly ridiculous.  If company survival was common and easy without microtransactions, they would be rare.  As it stands, a game with good F2P design doesn't ruin its fun and simply performs better, allowing that company to stay in business and keep making games.

If you like a particular developer, you should want them to be as successful as possible so they can increase the amount of money they pour back into the system.  Games are a business venture, and companies will invest deeper on products likely to have a good return.

Sorry to hear your sister's company doesn't focus on fun.  Doesn't sound like a successful plan, financially, though if that's her view internally.  I mean a lot of companies (mine included) are accused of not trying to make fun games, but certainly at all the companies I've worked for it's been my focus to make things as awesome as I can with the constraints I'm given -- otherwise why be in the industry at all?  When your job is entertainment, making boring things is the path to failure. 

(Also if that's the OP after being edited for 'wall of text' I'd hate to have seen the post before!)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20720

3/16/13 11:08:31 AM#31
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aerowyn
is there such a thing as a P2P MMO without some sort of micro transactions? i can't think of any off the top of my head

WOW. You can buy $10 pet and $25 mounts.

i said "without".. yea WoW has tons of microtransactions besides just the pets and mounts.. last I remember you cna pay to change race, faction, all sorts of stuff

Oh .. lol .. i read too fast. You are right.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20720

3/16/13 11:09:28 AM#32
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by asmkm22
You have to do microtransactions when so many players refuse to pay for subscriptions.  Everyone wants the game to be "free" to play.  We brought this on ourselves.

A game has to be free to play first before anyone can refuse to pay for a subscription.  They're the ones who put the model out there, gamers were just stupid enough to fall for it.

Yeah ... and it is totally good. Many of us can play parts of many games for free.

I would bring it on myself again and again.

  jandrsn

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/06
Posts: 190

 
OP  3/20/13 5:36:24 PM#33
Personally, I disagree with the whole economies of scale argument theory when it comes to anything 'artsy'. There seems to be a point where you go from 'this is how much I make an hour' into ' The absolute maximum amount of cash you can generate gets you a bonus'. Game companies seem to need massive immediate cash grabs instead of the slow and steady approach. 'Well, we need x programmers and x managers and x artists and x blah blah......' What happened to dropping seed money and giving it a few years to grow, mature, and then it can pay off? Any real world businesss I can think of needs return sales to maintain itself, why does our mmorpg business need this immediate cash grab even before it opens? Maybe the kickstarter peeps can change this, but there is really no accountability there.
  jpnz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3565

3/20/13 7:48:45 PM#34
Probably because mmos requires infrastructure that cost a lot to maintain

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2800

3/20/13 8:00:32 PM#35
Originally posted by jpnz
Probably because mmos requires infrastructure that cost a lot to maintain

 

Ummm... no. Several devs have spoken about this at various times, including Raph Koster of SWG design fame. And he related that hosting costs for MMOs have gone down 90% or more since the "old days" in terms of cost for bandwidth and server functionality. If this were not so, so called F2P games could not exist. So, it is not the upkeep, which is why so many over the hill titles continue in undeath instead of being closed, because they cost almost nothing to keep running. To the main point of the thread, it is simply because the companies are greedy. A max of $15 per player is not enough for them anymore, and, no one has really wanted to break the $15/mo sub rate to the upside, because there is feeling the market will not accept it. So if they can't charge more up front, they must nickle and dime to get there.
  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4944

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/20/13 9:06:31 PM#36
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by jpnz
Probably because mmos requires infrastructure that cost a lot to maintain

 

Ummm... no. Several devs have spoken about this at various times, including Raph Koster of SWG design fame. And he related that hosting costs for MMOs have gone down 90% or more since the "old days" in terms of cost for bandwidth and server functionality. If this were not so, so called F2P games could not exist. So, it is not the upkeep, which is why so many over the hill titles continue in undeath instead of being closed, because they cost almost nothing to keep running. To the main point of the thread, it is simply because the companies are greedy. A max of $15 per player is not enough for them anymore, and, no one has really wanted to break the $15/mo sub rate to the upside, because there is feeling the market will not accept it. So if they can't charge more up front, they must nickle and dime to get there.

 I am not a dev but even I know that bandwith and server functionality has never been the biggest cost in MMO dev houses.  Biggest houses in almost any company is always the cost of the devs themselves, humans their pay, penefits, pensions, taxes, and everything they need to do their job and those have gone up in 10 years.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2800

3/20/13 11:48:18 PM#37
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by jpnz
Probably because mmos requires infrastructure that cost a lot to maintain

 

Ummm... no. Several devs have spoken about this at various times, including Raph Koster of SWG design fame. And he related that hosting costs for MMOs have gone down 90% or more since the "old days" in terms of cost for bandwidth and server functionality. If this were not so, so called F2P games could not exist. So, it is not the upkeep, which is why so many over the hill titles continue in undeath instead of being closed, because they cost almost nothing to keep running. To the main point of the thread, it is simply because the companies are greedy. A max of $15 per player is not enough for them anymore, and, no one has really wanted to break the $15/mo sub rate to the upside, because there is feeling the market will not accept it. So if they can't charge more up front, they must nickle and dime to get there.

 I am not a dev but even I know that bandwith and server functionality has never been the biggest cost in MMO dev houses.  Biggest houses in almost any company is always the cost of the devs themselves, humans their pay, penefits, pensions, taxes, and everything they need to do their job and those have gone up in 10 years.

 

In the original games, the infrastructure costs were that high. That was the basis of the $15 in the first place. It has been mentioned that the COST of the infrastructure was running in the $5-6/mo/customer range for UO in 2000. So yes, with the level of technology and bandwidth at the time it was probably the single largest expense. Now it is less than 25 cents. That said, with modern games, personnel expenses are a much larger part... especially because "guided content", the main part of most games these days is expensive to make. Raph Koster hit this point as well, when he was talking about the making of SWG: for as deep and complex as the systems in SWG were, they were MUCH cheaper than doing tons of guided content out of the gate. This was a prime reason SWG was "cheap" in his words, to make. Now you need $75 mil or more to make a decent modern MMO, if you are wedded to guided content as the basis of your game.
  jandrsn

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/06
Posts: 190

 
OP  3/21/13 2:37:54 AM#38
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by jpnz
Probably because mmos requires infrastructure that cost a lot to maintain

 

Ummm... no. Several devs have spoken about this at various times, including Raph Koster of SWG design fame. And he related that hosting costs for MMOs have gone down 90% or more since the "old days" in terms of cost for bandwidth and server functionality. If this were not so, so called F2P games could not exist. So, it is not the upkeep, which is why so many over the hill titles continue in undeath instead of being closed, because they cost almost nothing to keep running. To the main point of the thread, it is simply because the companies are greedy. A max of $15 per player is not enough for them anymore, and, no one has really wanted to break the $15/mo sub rate to the upside, because there is feeling the market will not accept it. So if they can't charge more up front, they must nickle and dime to get there.

 I am not a dev but even I know that bandwith and server functionality has never been the biggest cost in MMO dev houses.  Biggest houses in almost any company is always the cost of the devs themselves, humans their pay, penefits, pensions, taxes, and everything they need to do their job and those have gone up in 10 years.

 

Well there it is! We need non human devs, either robots or chimpanzees.... Personally I lean towards primates of some sort, but robots would be cool too.
  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

3/21/13 7:14:39 AM#39
Originally posted by jandrsn
$500 dollars, US, gets you perferred housing in Richard Garriott's new Ultima-ish game. $200 gets you access to Drizzt in the newest Neverwinter game. SWOTOR has a cash shop to unlock content even for subscription players. Dead space 3 has day 1 microtransactions. Dark and Light sure took pre-orders. Are we as gamers that gullible that no other industry, at least that I can think of, are susceptible to these ridiculious cash grabs? I've never seen a pre-order car that has extras, nor a pre-order pair of pants, or anything. I get that small teams of devs (and by devs I include coders, managers, art people, etc...) might need a bit of cash infusion make a game, but why the constant hunt for 'big whales' to finance everything? At $15 a month US, plus a $50-60 dollar box sale, in three months I'm still around where I'd be at buying a used newish game at a gamestop type store at one a month, and most single player games don't hold my attention more than a month straight. Why do I need to get whacked with microtransactions on top of that? I get the fact that yes, some people will pay for anything once they get excited for something. But if a signed Peyton Manning jersey might sell for $1000, do you stop making unsigned #18's? Or half-ass the ones you do make? My sister got a masters in non-profit business management, and by almost random chance ended up as a video game tester for Warner Brothers. Every time we'd discuss gaming, a). She obviously knew more than I did about video games, since she got paid for it and I just have spent money on it for a good twenty years now, and b). It's about profit. My talk of fun and that sense of fulfillment didn 't register in her brain. I know that this will get flamed and ignored, but I can't play a cash shop game again. I won't get NGE'd again. I will buy a boxed game and subscription, but I draw the line at micro/macro cash transactions. *edited for wall o'text, sorry wrote this on a nook

Its up to you eather go for it or not still plenty of games out there that dont have micro transactions.

Don't want timesink but want fast gain and ezmode=cashshop

  emperorwings

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1429

3/21/13 7:18:24 AM#40
Buying the boxed too and not doing the whole kickstarter thing but it would be nice to have a house it's just $500 could make me live in a real one for a couple weeks.

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

2 Pages « 1 2 Search