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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Dedicated Buffing Classes

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83 posts found
  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

3/14/13 4:42:48 PM#41
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

I believe more and more in this game every day. Take my money already! ;)

Spoke to Amazon payments today actually about our account. :)

Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

Originally posted by MarkJacobs
We have some good ideas here, one BSC idea but I want to hear what our backers have to say before we commit to anything. I'm sure somebody will say that this is just more B.S., that I only listen to me, but I look forward to seeing what those same people say after about a year of development, especially if we can implement the BSC idea. :)

As always, I'm grateful for your support and interest in CU as I am for everyone else who has been part of thise brief but interesting journey so far. Back to work on the eye chart...

 

Yeah, there's a lot of naysayers and trolls floating around this forum..  I can't wait to see CSE prove 'em wrong! :D

I don't mind the naysayers, I really don't. To me there's a world of difference though between attacking an idea and attacking a person so, as usual it's  just the personal stuff I adhore. I might be a slow learner but I'm not going to get drawn into flame-wars, back and forth, etc. whenthings get to that level anymore and I'll just ignore the thread/person. See, I can be taught! :)

That being said, I think that overall the vast majority of folks here have been awesome and I can say without any fear of contradiction that the community here has already contributed to the evolution of CU since I announced this project. Heck, they have even done that before we announced when I was in full "lurking mode." Whether it is with the game itself or the Kickstarter, I'm glad I came back to the forums to talk and not just played the role of "aloof developer" because I suck at that and I really hate it. I wasn't really sure how it would turn out (as the folks at CSE could tell you if you asked them) but I can't complain as it has been truly net positive here.

 

OMG "Spoke to Amazon payments today actually about our account. :)" that means setting upamazon affiliates for kickstarter! :P

I completely understand about the personal attacks versus attacks on an idea.  Glad the community has contributed to the evolution and design of CU! :)  Thanks again for all the communication, Mark.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2004

3/14/13 5:10:12 PM#42
Originally posted by meddyck

I'm not a fan of stat buffs. If the game is balanced around everybody having +155 strength from buffs, then just give everybody +155 strength and dispense with the whole need to buff at all. Having played countless hours on clerics, druids, and healers in DAOC, there wasn't anything fun or interesting about buffing, rebuffing, or even shearing.

I don't even need to mention how bad it is when buffing classes can be used as bots.

If the main healing class has buffs, then everybody is going to expect healers to spec for buffs and heals and will scorn you if you spec for damage or CC or even for the best healing at the expense of buffing.

For all these reasons, the only kind of buffs I'd like to see in CU are stuff like DAOC's healer's celerity: short duration group buffs where the player has to pick the right time to use them rather than them always being on. And if you have spells like that, don't put them on the main healers.

I don't think it's ever the case where the game is balanced around the buffs given by the buff class.  That is, it should never be mandatory that you have a buffer in your group.  You should still be able to do content if you swap the buff class for some other role.  

It's mostly about providing players with more flexible gameplay, something else to do besides damage damage damage.  The goal is still the same: survive and kill enemies.  Your group's overall power level should still be relatively the same.  The buff class just provides some additional combat variety.  It should also provide some variety for the group.  

When a buff class is well designed, players actually want to have them in their group due to the relative experience of increased power.  Pure damage dealers love experiencing that +155 strength relative to their normal damage.  Suddenly bigger numbers feel good.  +155 does not feel good if it is permanent; that becomes the new baseline comparison.  Casters love suddenly being more free with their spell rotations due to increased mana regen, etc.  Other buffs like accuracy, armor and health increases might be less exciting to the rest of the group, but they allow the buffer to pull his weight in the group, and don't leave you wishing you brought another class in his place.  

 

  BowbowDAoC

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 482

3/14/13 5:31:08 PM#43

Thanks for the updates :)

 

Hopefully there will be at least 5 classes, and the fifth should be roguish class :)

Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

  KappenWiz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/06/07
Posts: 163

3/14/13 5:59:09 PM#44
Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

Thanks for the updates :)

 

Hopefully there will be at least 5 classes, and the fifth should be roguish class :)

 

For some real fun, give each realm different rogues...one archer, one assassin, one mage. That should light up the forums.

 

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

3/14/13 6:20:35 PM#45

I think the shaman was a perfectly implemented buffing class. Buff sheers, large area interrupts/disease, combat-rebuffs/cleansing, suplementary emergency healing.

High skill cap class. I think it was a better example of a primary buff class than druid or cleric because they usually weren't expected to heal. Good mix of support and disruption.

  Channce

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/04
Posts: 497

3/14/13 6:24:54 PM#46
Originally posted by Odaman
I'd rather see a heavy debuffer than a buffer. At least when it comes to generic stat buffs.

I think i like this idea.  No buffs at all, you are what you are, but a class that is "played" that can reduce your stats for a short amount of time.

When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.

  Ellya

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 99

3/14/13 7:06:15 PM#47

Tank

Healer

Mage

Stealther

Archer

Bard

Unless we could combine two of those types in one class, we're going to need 6 per realm :)

Possible split classes could be stealther/archer, bard/healer. Not sure you could get away from pure magic dps and pure tank though :)

 

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

3/14/13 8:07:49 PM#48

Also I liked some of the buffing that WoW had. /em puts on flame retardant suit

 

By this I mean like, instead of a buffbot class, one of the classes might just have a really strong buff of each type like the paladin.

 

All the different types of buffs in WoW were more interesting than DAoC concentration based buffs.

 

Auras are cool, but the idea of calling them "auras" thus they belong on a magical class or a bard was a limiting factor to how cool auras could be. Different classes inspire different things IRL when you see them. A frenzied berserker on your backside makes the person behind the keyboard literally say "oh shit". Lets call this reaction "dread". That could be an aura that debuffs enemies around you. What does the effect have? Up to game designers. Maybe its a way to differentiate two classes that are very similar in playstyle, while having them complement each other.

 

I don't want to even attempt to design classes, but a light tank for example could put dread on nearby enemies. Maybe certain archtypes are more effected by dread than others, and some might not be effected at all. Mystics and seers might piss their pants and take full effect of dread, rogues might take half the effect of dread, while vikings might not be effected by dread.

 

On the flip side, maybe some classes (*cough* heavy/primary tanks *cough*)  might have an aura that cancels out dread  if they're close to their friendly softies. Call it valor/courage, whatever. And maybe the classes that are effected by dread are also proportionally effected by courage, and courage might reduce movement imparing effects proportionally. So not only is your heavy tank peeling guardian removing dread, but also if he is snaring your assailants, then you'll move faster than them and be able to get away. An interesting aura-counter aura dance for melee classes. Just don't call it an aura, that sounds magical. ;)

 

Mystics might also have their own interesting auras like "clarity", if you're close to an allied mystic, you might be less effected by mind altering CC. Less duration, less of an effect, or higher chance to resist, idk. This would be a force multiplier helping your peeling heavy tank resist CC so that he can clear off the baddies.

Additionally being near an enemy mystic could inflict "mystification" (yes its a word), amplifying the effects of mind altering spells, but again maybe mystification and clarity only effect the lesser minded vikings and rogues, and not effect mystics and seers at all.

 

I have some ideas for rogue auras but that would probably be counter-intuitive unless the effects were completely hidden. Maybe rogues inflict "distraction" on everyone but other rogues. I don't know what it would do though. Something cool maybe.

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

3/14/13 8:28:12 PM#49
Originally posted by Hokibukisa

Also I liked some of the buffing that WoW had. /em puts on flame retardant suit

 

By this I mean like, instead of a buffbot class, one of the classes might just have a really strong buff of each type like the paladin.

 

All the different types of buffs in WoW were more interesting than DAoC concentration based buffs.

 

Auras are cool, but the idea of calling them "auras" thus they belong on a magical class or a bard was a limiting factor to how cool auras could be. Different classes inspire different things IRL when you see them. A frenzied berserker on your backside makes the person behind the keyboard literally say "oh shit". Lets call this reaction "dread". That could be an aura that debuffs enemies around you. What does the effect have? Up to game designers. Maybe its a way to differentiate two classes that are very similar in playstyle, while having them complement each other.

 

I don't want to even attempt to design classes, but a light tank for example could put dread on nearby enemies. Maybe certain archtypes are more effected by dread than others, and some might not be effected at all. Mystics and seers might piss their pants and take full effect of dread, rogues might take half the effect of dread, while vikings might not be effected by dread.

 

On the flip side, maybe some classes (*cough* heavy/primary tanks *cough*)  might have an aura that cancels out dread  if they're close to their friendly softies. Call it valor/courage, whatever. And maybe the classes that are effected by dread are also proportionally effected by courage, and courage might reduce movement imparing effects proportionally. So not only is your heavy tank peeling guardian removing dread, but also if he is snaring your assailants, then you'll move faster than them and be able to get away. An interesting aura-counter aura dance for melee classes. Just don't call it an aura, that sounds magical. ;)

 

Mystics might also have their own interesting auras like "clarity", if you're close to an allied mystic, you might be less effected by mind altering CC. Less duration, less of an effect, or higher chance to resist, idk. This would be a force multiplier helping your peeling heavy tank resist CC so that he can clear off the baddies.

Additionally being near an enemy mystic could inflict "mystification" (yes its a word), amplifying the effects of mind altering spells, but again maybe mystification and clarity only effect the lesser minded vikings and rogues, and not effect mystics and seers at all.

 

I have some ideas for rogue auras but that would probably be counter-intuitive unless the effects were completely hidden. Maybe rogues inflict "distraction" on everyone but other rogues. I don't know what it would do though. Something cool maybe.

I'm a fan of each class having a unique "buff" type ability available to them in a specific spec line.  This gives each class utility in the group setting.

 

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

3/14/13 8:51:28 PM#50
It doesn't need to even be a spec or an ability. It could just be there. Like pure tanks having higher weaponskill and stoicism. Just baked into the class and\or archtype. I wouldn't want everything needing to be specced into a support branch. I also hate it when games give you a gimped version of everything and you have to spec into a certain tree in order for it to be any good. Like a wow paladin. :\

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

3/14/13 9:58:24 PM#51
Originally posted by Hokibukisa
It doesn't need to even be a spec or an ability. It could just be there. Like pure tanks having higher weaponskill and stoicism. Just baked into the class and\or archtype. I wouldn't want everything needing to be specced into a support branch. I also hate it when games give you a gimped version of everything and you have to spec into a certain tree in order for it to be any good. Like a wow paladin. :\

Well, my thought was that each class might have a spec line that offered some good "solo" abilities and a different line with some good "grouping" abilities, but they were mutually exclusive... you couldn't have both.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  meddyck

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1108

3/15/13 7:27:00 AM#52
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
My *current* thinking is that the 4th class will be a bard-type class that will have a wide range of buffs/debuffs (not heals).

So... what are the first 3 classes? (Did you think you were going to slip that one by us? Heh.)

No sir, even if I was tempted to do so, I wouldn't even try to slip anything past this crew, that's for sure. OTOH, burying stuff in my blog posts, hidden messages in dialogue, etc. I do so love doing. I posted a few on the Vault that nobody figured out. :)

As to the other three classes, they are the expected HT, one tank, one healer and one damage dealer but that's only part of the story. Assuming we fund, I want to use the next two years to do something interesting with each one of the core classes. I've got some interesting thoughts on the healer and dps but nothing special has lept to mind yet on the pure tank. The key is that once we've freed ourselves from having to worry about PvE, where can we go with each class to make them fun and interesting to play? This is one of the reasons I'm not doing what I did with Dark Age and planning to have more classes than EQ1 had when we launched. This time, I'd rather have 4 or 5 great classes per realm at launch and then slowly add new ones.

I'm kind of surprised to hear how few classes you are targeting. It would seem difficult to meet your goal of having unique classes in each realm with so few classes at release unless each class actually has a much wider range of possible specs than was possible  in DAOC. (Can you give us any details or even general ideas about whether there will even be specialization in CU or is it just going to be a matter of which weapons and armor you equip and how long you've used them?)

I'm not that excited about a pure song class tbh. I'd rather you give the speed spell to one of the other classes and have a different archetype perhaps archer as the 4th class. Or maybe you could have archers with speed? That would certainly make sense for them being a scouting class and would solve the age old problem from DAOC of groups not wanting to invite archers.

Obviously I understand the total number of classes and which classes is a long way from being decided. The more, the better especially when it comes to archetypes that players will expect in an RvR game. You could easily leave adding additional casters until after release for instance, but many players will be disappointed if archers and assassins aren't in there.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  BowbowDAoC

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 482

3/15/13 8:14:49 AM#53

I do agree that 5 classes would be a bit too few, and for different reasons :

- too few classes would be a bit less appealing to some people.  Since CU can bring awesome new stuff for a MMO, i think it has to offer headstart a good variety of classes.

- having only 5 classes, to me (i'll try to explain my thoughts on it the best i can), would make those 5 classes a bit too specialised to allow further classes to easily appear afterwards, unless there is so many skills available in each of those 5 classes that one cannot get 40 % of them, then it would allow each player that plays a specific class the possibility to be very different from one another.

- regarding 2nd reason,  i think there is room headstart for a wide variety of skills or spells that could not be given within 5 classes only, without making some classes having a too much wide variety of skills/spells.

Of course i might be totally wrong, since i'm suggesting this based on my actual knowledge of what the game will be so far, plus based on what i experienced so far in other mmos.

 

I think 6 or 7 classes at launch would be better for those reasons.

Tank

healer

dps

scout / stealther

mage

bard / mins / skald

1 original class

Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

  KappenWiz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/06/07
Posts: 163

3/15/13 9:01:47 AM#54

I wonder if it would be possible to have buffs and other abilities improve or evolve based on stats/conditions/etc.

 

They'd always work at some basic level, but the player who uses them more or more timely would get smaller added benefits  and maybe new and different effects from them. If a mage has an ability that summons elementals for 30 seconds, you'd get a different, random elemental depending on a bunch of factors like:

 

  • How high his magic attunement is - that would make him an overall better summoner.
  • Where they are in the world - in a forest, one of several different woodland elementals would be summoned with a whole host of different abilities. Is he in his homeland? Perhaps that would work in his favor and summon a creature that comes with a buff to group morale.
  • How successfully he's used the ability up to now - Only used the ability once ever? Maybe a failure at summoning altogether, maybe get a deranged creature that attacks his own group or runs off in fear.
  • What structures are built nearby - Has someone built a mage tower? Or is there a cemetary in proximity? Maybe someone disturbed a mine and angered some deep-dwelling spirits.
All kinds of things you could do. But draw from a large stable of creatures for randomness.  And maybe even have each creature of the same type draw it's abilities randomly from a table. So, one ice elemental mage NPC would be a nuker, while another ice elemental mage NPC would be a dotter, debuffer, or pet summoner.
 
Now this would just be one ability or buff, not how the entire class would work. And the more a character played, used the ability, and had decent stats, the more reliable the summoned creature would be, but still always have some percentage of random turnout. The odds on the "rolls" would be better for the accomplished player, but never 100%.
 
It would be fun to apply this idea to different degrees across all kinds of abilities, including buffs that sometimes grant one effect, sometimes another.
 
 
  zekuel

Novice Member

Joined: 3/09/13
Posts: 39

3/15/13 9:08:54 AM#55
I think 5 classes is nice. I would actually like to see less classes and more class development to make those classes different. Anyways I thought a crusader type class would be cool. like a palidin but more tank based. I thought having passive aoe auras around the class along with basic chants you cand twist like in daoc. damage/heal/absorbtion. that would be the base of the class but then you would spec into multiple weapons sheilds and make them a true tank. I also thought the cleric class should have auras for buffs and maybe some abilities to up the auras aoe and buff power for short durations instead of just having buffs and concentrtion or aoe buffs. You can make the class more active and bring them in line with a secondary tank type class with hammers and smite. Most of all with healing it should be based upon it being reactive meaning your going to be slower reacting off of what the other classes HP is. It would be nice to see spell start delays and ending delays. A spell that takes 1 sec would have .5 sec start delay(cast) .5 sec end spell delay. abviously your first reaction cast would cast in .5 sec but with the end delay and the start delay of next cast it would still take 1 sec. For longer duration spells or chain style spells and combat styles you could level up abilities to have shorter end delays. another though would be to only have interupt on the start delay. I also like the idea of a ruin preist having ruins auras(necklace) soceted ruins to weapons you can interchange or have higher end weapons with 2-3 ruin slots where you could almost twist your ruins (doesn't have to be limited to buffs though you could have healing and damage ruins too and more than 1 of the same type to stack for higher end buffing, healing, and damage/ also they don't have to be group based the coul be solo based ruins too.)
  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/15/13 9:22:06 AM#56

Rock Paper Scissors type system you need more classes - imo. Each class needs the defined roles and in a RVR game like this there will be a bunch of roles needed.

I think they will end up around 6-8 classes likely.

Musts will be :

Healer

Melee dps

Caster dps

Caster 2ndary support

Speed class - granted could mix this through other classes

Tank ? if they don't just link it with melee dps class.

hybrid

 

I will always lean towards more classes the better, even daoc had 3 hib casters that were different in minor ways but all had similar DD type spells, its sometimes not hard to add an extra class.

I will hope for 8, and have group sizes set to 8.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

3/15/13 10:11:50 AM#57

Folks,

    Time for a quick post and then back to work on the tiers (I think I went a little overboard with them, currently 17 digital pledge tiers).

As to not having as many classes as expected, please keep a few  things in mind:

1) I'm trying my best not to repeat certain mistakes of the past. It would be easy for me to go "OMG, of course we are going to have XXX class or more classes than Dark Age did!!!!' to generate interest and possibly additional support for the game. However, since my approach with CU is rather more guarded, I'd rather say that there will be fewer at launch and then overachieve rather than the opposite.

2) I know that we will definitely have four classes and that we will have enough variety in how they are built so that they won't be boring. While I expect that we'll be able to have more, the key for CU's success is a small but highly engaged playerbase. If putting in additional classes that weren't fully baked at launch could hurt that playerbase and distract the team as we iterate on the game, then I'll avoid adding additional classes till they are ready to go.

3) Even if I thought that stealthers were going to be in the game and be the 5th class, I have stated that we really have some interesting thoughts on the subject and that I can't commit either way until our backers have the chance to weigh in. As always, I remain of two minds regarding stealthers and if they go into CU, it has to be done carefully. 

Mark

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  meddyck

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1108

3/15/13 10:18:52 AM#58
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

3) Even if I thought that stealthers were going to be in the game and be the 5th class, I have stated that we really have some interesting thoughts on the subject and that I can't commit either way until our backers have the chance to weigh in. As always, I remain of two minds regarding stealthers and if they go into CU, it has to be done carefully.

There's no necessity that an archer is a stealther. More than a few games including WAR and GW 2 have made them visible toons.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

3/15/13 10:26:29 AM#59
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

3) Even if I thought that stealthers were going to be in the game and be the 5th class, I have stated that we really have some interesting thoughts on the subject and that I can't commit either way until our backers have the chance to weigh in. As always, I remain of two minds regarding stealthers and if they go into CU, it has to be done carefully.

There's no necessity that an archer is a stealther. More than a few games including WAR and GW 2 have made them visible toons.

I couldn't agree more but it's a bit of the "chicken or the egg" thing. I don't want to commit on archers, assassins, stealth, etc. until  we really have a chance to talk it through. I will say I have no plans to implement a system where someone can push a button, go invisible, attack (short range, long range, etc.), push the same button and go invisible again, rinse, wash and repeat. But there's a rather wide gulf between that and no stealth at all. For what it's worth, I've played a lot of long-range damage dealers over the years and I do enjoy the dynamic but I don't want them to be JAFA. :)

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  BowbowDAoC

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 482

3/15/13 11:01:31 AM#60

Originally posted by BowbowDAoC


I do agree that 5 classes would be a bit too few, and for different reasons :

- too few classes would be a bit less appealing to some people.  Since CU can bring awesome new stuff for a MMO, i think it has to offer headstart a good variety of classes.

- having only 5 classes, to me (i'll try to explain my thoughts on it the best i can), would make those 5 classes a bit too specialised to allow further classes to easily appear afterwards, unless there is so many skills available in each of those 5 classes that one cannot get 40 % of them, then it would allow each player that plays a specific class the possibility to be very different from one another.

- regarding 2nd reason,  i think there is room headstart for a wide variety of skills or spells that could not be given within 5 classes only, without making some classes having a too much wide variety of skills/spells.

Of course i might be totally wrong, since i'm suggesting this based on my actual knowledge of what the game will be so far, plus based on what i experienced so far in other mmos.

 

I think 6 or 7 classes at launch would be better for those reasons.

Tank

healer

dps

scout / stealther

mage

bard / mins / skald

1 original class

Originally posted by MarkJacobs


Folks,

    Time for a quick post and then back to work on the tiers (I think I went a little overboard with them, currently 17 digital pledge tiers).

As to not having as many classes as expected, please keep a few  things in mind:

2) I know that we will definitely have four classes and that we will have enough variety in how they are built so that they won't be boring. While I expect that we'll be able to have more, the key for CU's success is a small but highly engaged playerbase. If putting in additional classes that weren't fully baked at launch could hurt that playerbase and distract the team as we iterate on the game.

Mark

*snip*

ok sound good then :) thats the part i was a bit afraid, that there would be only a few "templates" for each class, and evereyone would end up playing exactly the same.

Less classes is cool as long as there is more options in each one :)

Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

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