It is cross server dungeons that destroy the community.

No regular dungeon finders just add more chat in the main town and that doesnt really affect the server community, but when you play with other players from the same server you get to know people and at least I tends to do other stuff with people I like.

In a cross server dungeons you play with people you probably never will see again and that means you wont get to know people on your own server.

I never really had problems finding groups, not in GW2 or any other MMO but I see that dungeonfinders can be useful. 

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Alberel

Players come to rely upon the automated LFG tools and no longer bother to communicate any more. It completely replaces the part where players used to talk to each other to find other people for their group. It may make it easier to play together with other people but that alone does not make a community. You need that forced communication to break the ice and get players talking in order for them to find friendships, without it they'll just follow in silence.

 

At least one person gets it.

 

Well, I use LFG all the time, and  always communicate in the party. And my "friends" list is usually completely full.

Originally posted by Corehaven

I've never understood the argument that it ruins a community.  In fact it seems like incredibly backward logic to me. 

 

If anything I'd assume anything that makes it easier to unite with other players would actually bring the community together.  Not apart.  It's like arguing that a GPS makes it harder to reach your destination.  

 

Sometimes I just don't understand where people are coming from.  A lot of the time actually.  The obviously intelligent folks that make concrete, well thought out points?  I think I get them most of the time even if I don't always agree with them.  Then there are the other folks. 

Imo the automated LFG systems are more scapegoats then the actual reason. Taking the excample from the poster below you.. during WoW wotlk the people looking for group wherent the most social to begin with, there wasnt all that much chatter, unless (just like in LFG system queueing) you brought it in yourself. What it DID remove (in wow) was having 4 group members complain that they didnt get a summon to the instance by the 1 and only person who DID go to the instance, which.. already was a problem since vanilla, people preffered to sit in their respective cities and wanted the warlock and 2 others to goto the instance.

Personally I have yet to run into quiet groups, they may start out as such but with half a comment its not hard to get people to open up.

Im sure tthe more automated systems make some impact but not that much, people rever  back to EQ but overlook what arguebly is a much bigger reason for the more-social grouping there. Not the endless hours of LFG in open channels, it was more the slower pased combat and actual downtime. Waiting for mana , waiting on pulls to actually arive.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

 Most LFG systems further ruin the community because games right now are easy and require no travel, you basically group and forget about it. The whole MMO experience in games like GW2 is forgetable.

EQ had a barebone LFG system later on, but the fact you needed to travel for miles to get where other people are meant grouping meant something, now grouping in MMO is playing together 30 minutes and never seeing each other again. Really, you didn't go back to town in EQ just for the heck of it, you stayed with the same people for days usually, in the same zone. If you're going to make someone travel for an hour or letting him wait on a boat for 30 minutes you need to make sure you know who that other person is, you can not just let some automated feature do the grouping for you or use some anonymous site, you need to engage and talk to the other person.

Current MMO have no community, they're just forgetable zergfests. Stuff like queue are a joke, how about you talk to the people yourself and engage with them instead of using automated features.

Spot on imo, LFG system take away alot of the community aspect in games and because of that the community suffers.

Nope. What ruins it is if difficulty is trivialized. In the case of WoW, having the raid finder does ruin the community mostly out of the fact that it demotes guild play which those raids are MEANT to be done with. It detracts from those elements so in a way you could say it does.

The thing is though, its up to the player to talk in a dungeon.

The difference between me shouting in chat "LFG Dungeon DPS" and clicking a button to queue up for one is just me being obnoxious in chat.  Really, I don't care waht dillusion people have spamming in chat for a group does NOT promote social interaction.  Its up to the players doing that interaction after getting in a group.

Originally posted by Alberel

Originally posted by Corehaven

I've never understood the argument that it ruins a community.  In fact it seems like incredibly backward logic to me. 

 

If anything I'd assume anything that makes it easier to unite with other players would actually bring the community together.  Not apart.  It's like arguing that a GPS makes it harder to reach your destination.  

 

Sometimes I just don't understand where people are coming from.  A lot of the time actually.  The obviously intelligent folks that make concrete, well thought out points?  I think I get them most of the time even if I don't always agree with them.  Then there are the other folks. 

You're making an incorrect assumption that simply being in a group is a community building exercise. In actuality it is communication between players in said group that builds relationships and ultimately a community. You cannot form a relationship with someone without communication of some kind.

With regards to the GPS you have it wrong; it's like arguing that using a GPS all the time makes you less capable of navigating without one, which is true of any tool or device humans come to rely on.

Players come to rely upon the automated LFG tools and no longer bother to communicate any more. It completely replaces the part where players used to talk to each other to find other people for their group. It may make it easier to play together with other people but that alone does not make a community. You need that forced communication to break the ice and get players talking in order for them to find friendships, without it they'll just follow in silence.

I know a lot of people like to rebutt that argument by saying 'you can still be social'. Yes I can but I alone cannot build a community, you need everyone socialising to do that and most people are too busy chasing their carrots to bother unless forced.

 

I talked crap in /group chat back in Vanilla/TBC when there was no LFG. Then I talked crap in /group chat after there was the LFG. It's true that LFG might discourage people to speak in the chat but from my experience every time I've tried to strike up a conversation in a group people would usually reply :D I have added a lot of people as friends from LFG parties. So it's quite possible to talk to other people when you're using the tool. No one is stopping you (but yourself?). I think the problem was not with the LFG tool. I think the problem was with the difficulty of the instances. In Vanilla (looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong instances) and in TBC heroics (ultra difficult compared to now) the difference was that a dungeon could take you hours to finish. So people will of course talk and especially so when they wipe. I think that LFG is perfectly fine. I don't miss spamming LFG in the chat. I think if instances took way long than 20 min, e.g. 1-2 hours and people wiped, they would talk.

To sum up, LFG = great, have instances which are longer and more difficult AND make it so people don't want to leave a group once they've joined. 15-30 min penalty is a joke. Go for 6 hours :D

Originally posted by Corehaven

I've never understood the argument that it ruins a community.  In fact it seems like incredibly backward logic to me. 

 

If anything I'd assume anything that makes it easier to unite with other players would actually bring the community together.  Not apart.  It's like arguing that a GPS makes it harder to reach your destination.  

 

Sometimes I just don't understand where people are coming from.  A lot of the time actually.  The obviously intelligent folks that make concrete, well thought out points?  I think I get them most of the time even if I don't always agree with them.  Then there are the other folks. 

You bring up a good point in orange, a GPS may make reaching the destination easier however it also has a trade off. Is an edventure/trip realy thay exciting when u know exactly how to get there and told exactly what to do every step of the way??? I find using a GPS makes a trip much less memorable than not having the direction and going into the unknown even though u may get lost once or twice and may be a little slower to get there but is that realy a bad thing??? You never forget that one time you get lost trying to get somewhere.

GPS simply give u 1 direction u can go while not using one can leave you on an adventure that you may not forget, sure it may be a little slower but its definetly the one i prefer to take. (GPS is a good way to describe questing in games after WoW aswell, All those quests i did in WoW i havant remember a single one but i can remember that one epic adventure i took trying to get from Qeynos to Freeport in Everquest may of took longer but was definetly worth it)

From my WoW experience, there's two kind of LFG: one that groups you with people from YOUR SERVER, and the other that doesn't.

When you're randomly grouped within your server (like WoW during WotLK) the system actually work because you meet people that you see again and again, even outside the dungeon. I made lots of friends this way! It's also a nice way to recrute people for your guild. It works because if someone is a douche, it will be known on the whole realm and he will be ignored fast.

Of course the problem is with the second kind of LFG. When you're grouped with people you will *never* see again. 

It's like arguing that a GPS makes it harder to reach your destination.  

 

GPS makes it easier. Know what people did before GPS? They got out of their car and aksed people directions, they socialised, I have shown many foreigners directions, I communicated and actually one of my friends is someone who I helped with dirctions.

In Everquest the world was huge and you often needed directions, often times I walked along with people for over 20 minutes just to show them some place. Hell, in Everquest half the challenge was making it alive to the group.

Nowadays people sit in some LFG queue like a stupid robot on a production chain, waiting for their number, to get transported into some dungeon and to complete their stupid dungeon and get out without saying a word. I would rather work on an actual production chain than be one of those WoW zombies.

I suggest a diffrent LFG system.

This one sucks it indeed destroys what little community forming there is. I don't even say a word inside a dungeon anymore. That is also because dungeons anrt random. Your doing the exact same thing evry time and i only can get pissed off at the many retards doing less DPS then me the Tank.

So i suggest 2 things. open world dungeons with lots and patrols and traps. youl have to be on your toes in there or you will wipe your group by overpulling things.

And for the LFG system. Instead of this push a button and join a random player thing. they should just simply make a list. U want to do a dungeon? then u just simply put yourself on that list wich tells other player your name class spec and lvl. People can pick u up from there. u don't have to wait for hours because people youl be picked out from that list. and if you are a retard the community wil punish you by not giving you invites because hey they can see your name.

Everything known to man ruins "Community". That's the best thing about conceptuals, ceaseless slippery slopes.

Originally posted by Loke666

It is cross server dungeons that destroy the community.

No regular dungeon finders just add more chat in the main town and that doesnt really affect the server community, but when you play with other players from the same server you get to know people and at least I tends to do other stuff with people I like.

It's both, cross server is just way worse. Vindictus has a dungeon finder that doesn't work cross-server and no one, I mean no one says anything to other people. You can play in that game with 5 other people for 30 minutes without a single person having said anything. You can say hi and not a single person will say hi to you back, no one says a single word.

You don't need to talk to other people if grouping is trivial, you don't need to engage with other people, you're now a factory worker with premade chores, you click the LFG button, you get automatically ported into some dungeon with strangers, you finsish the dungeon while keeping your mouth shut because who cares about making friends, you finsih your job and you're done. The only thing that matters in those games like WoW and Vindictus is your stats, no one gives a damn who you are, you're just another number on the automated LFG factory worker list.

In new MMO I am lucky to even talk to another person, hell I am lucky if someone even says hi to another person instead of rushing by them because time counts, gotta get those uber leet stats and that gearscore so everyone can see how uber I am, since friends don't exist in those games, you're just a means to an end. In EQ half the time was spent talking to other people, socialising, in new MMO you need to practically beg to get a stranger to even say hi.

Originally posted by HeroEvermore

No one ruins the community but themselves. If you are adaptable in real life you can as well be in a game to accomodate your needs wether it be raiding or leveling or trading, etc.

A person can make his community be good or bad. The choice is yours. I can mute almost every idiot in every game ever made. Most of the poeple who complain about community are actually the ones feeding into the problem.

Case Closed.

Carmen Sandiego solved the mystery.

I agree.

LFG is just a tool. You don't have to use it if you don't want to.

No one ruins the community but themselves

Case Closed.

 

That's a terrible cop-out and you know it, or you never experienced what old MMO were like.

I tried Guild Wars after playing Everquest and the difference was night and day.

I could walk up to a person in pre-luclin Everquest and before I could reach my keys I would have a person throwing buffs on me and saying hi.

In Guild wars it felt like I was thrown into a world where people lost their ability to communicate, no one said anything. I couldn't believe it and thought it was some fluke. But I saw this pattern in more MMO, I saw it in WoW, I saw it in Vindictus, I saw it in FFXIV, I saw it everywhere.

The exception to this rule was Vanguard, people didn't communicate nearly as much as in EQ, but they communicate much more than in games like guild wars.

Communication stands and falls from game design.

Here is an example of Everquest. People sitting next to each other, talking to each other, trading things, making groups.

Does this happen in new MMO? No Sir, it does not. In new MMO you join the factory chain called the LFD dungeon seeker and complete your meaningless dungeon, and you keep using that tool because it's far easier to just be a little robot than to actually make friends, because if you had any friends you wouldn't join the LFD. Socialising be damned.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

No one ruins the community but themselves

Case Closed.

 

That's a terrible cop-out and you know it, or you never experienced what old MMO were like.

I tried Guild Wars after playing Everquest and the difference was night and day.

I could walk up to a person in pre-luclin Everquest and before I could reach my keys I would have a person throwing buffs on me and saying hi.

In Guild wars it felt like I was thrown into a world where people lost their ability to communicate, no one said anything. I couldn't believe it and thought it was some fluke. But I saw this pattern in more MMO, I saw it in WoW, I saw it in Vindictus, I saw it in FFXIV, I saw it everywhere.

The exception to this rule was Vanguard, people didn't communicate nearly as much as in EQ, but they communicate much more than in games like guild wars.

Communication stands and falls from game design.

 

 

Here is an example of Everquest. People sitting next to each other, talking to each other, trading things, making groups.

Does this happen in new MMO? No Sir, it does not.

Well, that's all up to to the people, Some people like spending hours in game just chatting. some pople just want to play the game.

Also, a lot of people are using Skype, Teamspeak or Mumble to communicate, which is far better then typing, especially in the middle of a fight.

Originally posted by Emrendil

Originally posted by CalmOceans

No one ruins the community but themselves

Case Closed.

 

That's a terrible cop-out and you know it, or you never experienced what old MMO were like.

I tried Guild Wars after playing Everquest and the difference was night and day.

I could walk up to a person in pre-luclin Everquest and before I could reach my keys I would have a person throwing buffs on me and saying hi.

In Guild wars it felt like I was thrown into a world where people lost their ability to communicate, no one said anything. I couldn't believe it and thought it was some fluke. But I saw this pattern in more MMO, I saw it in WoW, I saw it in Vindictus, I saw it in FFXIV, I saw it everywhere.

The exception to this rule was Vanguard, people didn't communicate nearly as much as in EQ, but they communicate much more than in games like guild wars.

Communication stands and falls from game design.

 

 

Here is an example of Everquest. People sitting next to each other, talking to each other, trading things, making groups.

Does this happen in new MMO? No Sir, it does not.

 

Well, that's all up to to the people, Some people like spending hours in game just chatting. some pople just want to play the game.

 

It's not up to the people, people haven't suddenly changed so dramatically in 10 years time that we went from everyone socialising to everyone being reclusive zombies.

It's the game design. If you don't give people the right incentive, right tools and right environment to socialise you will have no socialising.

Originally posted by Emrendil

Originally posted by CalmOceans

No one ruins the community but themselves

Case Closed.

 

That's a terrible cop-out and you know it, or you never experienced what old MMO were like.

I tried Guild Wars after playing Everquest and the difference was night and day.

I could walk up to a person in pre-luclin Everquest and before I could reach my keys I would have a person throwing buffs on me and saying hi.

In Guild wars it felt like I was thrown into a world where people lost their ability to communicate, no one said anything. I couldn't believe it and thought it was some fluke. But I saw this pattern in more MMO, I saw it in WoW, I saw it in Vindictus, I saw it in FFXIV, I saw it everywhere.

The exception to this rule was Vanguard, people didn't communicate nearly as much as in EQ, but they communicate much more than in games like guild wars.

Communication stands and falls from game design.

 

 

Here is an example of Everquest. People sitting next to each other, talking to each other, trading things, making groups.

Does this happen in new MMO? No Sir, it does not.

 

Well, that's all up to to the people, Some people like spending hours in game just chatting. some pople just want to play the game.

 

Also, a lot of people are using Skype, Teamspeak or Mumble to communicate, which is by far better then typing, especially in the middle of a fight.

i cannot use teamspeak or mumble with random people. I'd actualy would have to communicate with them to give them or get their details wich doesn't happen because we diddn't even say hi remember?