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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » I just realized, I don't like MMORPGs any more!

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228 posts found
  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2717

3/12/13 6:04:12 PM#201
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by nate198

 

True, the failure of SWTOR sent a larger message than any complaining on forums would. I'm not sure I'd still play a MMO made like the old school ones. I'm 10 years or more older now, and enjoy playing games in < 3 hour increments. However, there are some old ideas that just worked well in the MMORPG genre that I'd either like to see again, or like to improved upon.

Like what?  I can't think of anything that actually worked well that has totally gone away, in fact, the ideas that have gone away have largely been the ones that MMO evolution has selected against, they died for a reason.

There is some truth to what you are saying. But the reason for some of those features going away was sometimes a cost/benefit analysis based on dev time in building the game versus end product as received by users. A myopic approach has yielded results lately that are ungood for the same bean counters.

I don't really buy that.  Developers take the most popular elements and spend the most time on them because they are popular and will draw in the most paying players.  That's how business works.  What you're really saying is that developers don't waste their time on unpopular ideas and I agree with you.  Why?  Because they're unpopular!

 

There is also such a thing as over-saturation in a given market segment. The themepark segment is overloaded. The casual, click and go, get right into the game with no thought has been done to death. If game makers want players to stay with a title for more than 1 month, there should be enough depth to ensure that, instead of instance grinds and gear grinds. Now, the market segment that wants a deeper, virtual world type of experience is almost unserved. Usually, the hardest thing in business is to identify the market segment in which you can be successful. In the MMO space, it seems to be the other way around: the market opportunity is there, but no one wants to take it.
  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2717

3/12/13 6:07:49 PM#202
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Psychow

The Good Old Days:

 

Customers: $$$$$$ (The Vets)

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

New MMOs:

 

New Customers: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Ex-customers:  $$$$$$ (The Old Biter Vets)

That actually deserves an infographic, sort of.

Only 22 million vs about 4 million, though. If 4 million is 6$..."new" customers is 33.

$$$$$$ vs $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

(Naturally all figures are wildly inaccurate estimates)

 

The other thing is what is really counted in there. What is considered in "MMO" for that graph? Anything that can be played online and has a fee? And what do "active accts" signify? Not revenue if it is a F2P game. And for any F2P game, once an acct is created, do they keep counting that forever? If so, than I am counted about 14 times in there. The devil is not in the details, the devil IS the details.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

3/13/13 9:48:20 AM#203
Originally posted by Burntvet
 

 

There is also such a thing as over-saturation in a given market segment. The themepark segment is overloaded. The casual, click and go, get right into the game with no thought has been done to death. If game makers want players to stay with a title for more than 1 month, there should be enough depth to ensure that, instead of instance grinds and gear grinds. Now, the market segment that wants a deeper, virtual world type of experience is almost unserved. Usually, the hardest thing in business is to identify the market segment in which you can be successful. In the MMO space, it seems to be the other way around: the market opportunity is there, but no one wants to take it.

There is over-saturation .. that is why there are different games like LOL, and WOT .. and they are successful.

Looking at just the "MMO" space is limiting. If a dev is good at doing online games, why not go in new directions? WOT is the opposite of traditional MMO. Ditch everything but instanced pvp batter. PS2 is teh same .. just do world pvp but nothing else. Also there are ARPG which essentially is doing nothing but instanced dungeons.

All those things seem to be successful. May be the time of traditional pure MMO has passed .. and the time for adjacent, MMO-like games has arrived.

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2294

World > Quest Progression

3/13/13 10:08:34 AM#204
We're on MMORPG.com in the Pub section that is about MMOs, any conversation here by definition should be about MMOs and limited as such.

The comparison to WoT and LoL is not applicable because they are top of their class and targeted at a diffrerent audience. If there were 10 more LoL/WoT type big name games you would see the same saturation problems plaguing the MMORPG scene.

The "MMO-like" games have generally attracted an addition to the Internet gaming scene. The evidence of this is that the numbers WoT/LoL bring do not compare with the losses MMOs have. It's a seperate issue.
  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1288

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

3/13/13 10:09:15 AM#205

That graph shows a decline since 2009. Sad considering many games have gone free to play, so not only do they have less customers compared to 2009, they also have a lot less paying customers.


Regarding the bad economy comment, that should push people to the gaming market, especially FTP.


Some are giving gaming companies too much credit. Rather than 'reading the market and designing an appropriate game' they are following the same bottom-feeder mentality of the last five years: copy WoW, hype the heck out of it, payoff game reviewers, and hope enough suckers buy in.

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3597

3/13/13 12:36:17 PM#206
Originally posted by Burntvet

 

There is also such a thing as over-saturation in a given market segment. The themepark segment is overloaded. The casual, click and go, get right into the game with no thought has been done to death. If game makers want players to stay with a title for more than 1 month, there should be enough depth to ensure that, instead of instance grinds and gear grinds. Now, the market segment that wants a deeper, virtual world type of experience is almost unserved. Usually, the hardest thing in business is to identify the market segment in which you can be successful. In the MMO space, it seems to be the other way around: the market opportunity is there, but no one wants to take it.

The whole MMO market is over-saturated, there are far more games coming out than there are people to fill them all.  It's not just themeparks, it's *ALL* MMOs!  Besides, most developers make back all of their money in the first month, anyone who stays on longer than a couple of months is just a bonus.  You seem to have this delusion that "serving a niche segment" is financially rewarding.  It's not.  It costs many tens of millions of dollars and many years to develop an MMO, nobody is going to make a game that only appeals to 50k people worldwide.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

3/13/13 12:39:43 PM#207
Originally posted by Aelious
We're on MMORPG.com in the Pub section that is about MMOs, any conversation here by definition should be about MMOs and limited as such.

The comparison to WoT and LoL is not applicable because they are top of their class and targeted at a diffrerent audience. If there were 10 more LoL/WoT type big name games you would see the same saturation problems plaguing the MMORPG scene.

The "MMO-like" games have generally attracted an addition to the Internet gaming scene. The evidence of this is that the numbers WoT/LoL bring do not compare with the losses MMOs have. It's a seperate issue.

What loss? The MMO market grew 14% in revenue from 2011 to 2012.

http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18726

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/13/13 12:40:12 PM#208
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Burntvet
 

 

There is also such a thing as over-saturation in a given market segment. The themepark segment is overloaded. The casual, click and go, get right into the game with no thought has been done to death. If game makers want players to stay with a title for more than 1 month, there should be enough depth to ensure that, instead of instance grinds and gear grinds. Now, the market segment that wants a deeper, virtual world type of experience is almost unserved. Usually, the hardest thing in business is to identify the market segment in which you can be successful. In the MMO space, it seems to be the other way around: the market opportunity is there, but no one wants to take it.

There is over-saturation .. that is why there are different games like LOL, and WOT .. and they are successful.

Looking at just the "MMO" space is limiting. If a dev is good at doing online games, why not go in new directions? WOT is the opposite of traditional MMO. Ditch everything but instanced pvp batter. PS2 is teh same .. just do world pvp but nothing else. Also there are ARPG which essentially is doing nothing but instanced dungeons.

All those things seem to be successful. May be the time of traditional pure MMO has passed .. and the time for adjacent, MMO-like games has arrived.

Naw, I think the time of the Mega MMORPG has passed, fewer AAA firms will try to appeal to a broad player base, and the genre will likely shrink down to some smaller firms catering to more niche markets while big boys go off and build whatever pleases the masses.

Not every new store that opens intends to become WalMart

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2294

World > Quest Progression

3/13/13 12:51:31 PM#209
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aelious
We're on MMORPG.com in the Pub section that is about MMOs, any conversation here by definition should be about MMOs and limited as such.

The comparison to WoT and LoL is not applicable because they are top of their class and targeted at a diffrerent audience. If there were 10 more LoL/WoT type big name games you would see the same saturation problems plaguing the MMORPG scene.

The "MMO-like" games have generally attracted an addition to the Internet gaming scene. The evidence of this is that the numbers WoT/LoL bring do not compare with the losses MMOs have. It's a seperate issue.

What loss? The MMO market grew 14% in revenue from 2011 to 2012.

http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/

 

 

That's my point.  You said this:

 

"All those things seem to be successful. May be the time of traditional pure MMO has passed .. and the time for adjacent, MMO-like games has arrived."

 

Indicating that there has been a shift of what people want based upon the popularity of WoT/LoL.  My point is that the WoT/LoL numbers are an addition to those preferring a more "traditional MMO".  Additionally both of those games benefit from being top of the class and getting all the marbles.  If there was the same type of saturation, which I have no doubt is coming, numbers for both would see a drastic drop.

 

Simpy put: MMO-like popularity =/= shift from MMOs.  In fact, whos to say that most of the MMO-like players don't also play MMOs? Who wouldn't want to play a free game that you're in and out within 20 minutes?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

3/13/13 12:53:26 PM#210
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Burntvet
 

 

There is also such a thing as over-saturation in a given market segment. The themepark segment is overloaded. The casual, click and go, get right into the game with no thought has been done to death. If game makers want players to stay with a title for more than 1 month, there should be enough depth to ensure that, instead of instance grinds and gear grinds. Now, the market segment that wants a deeper, virtual world type of experience is almost unserved. Usually, the hardest thing in business is to identify the market segment in which you can be successful. In the MMO space, it seems to be the other way around: the market opportunity is there, but no one wants to take it.

There is over-saturation .. that is why there are different games like LOL, and WOT .. and they are successful.

Looking at just the "MMO" space is limiting. If a dev is good at doing online games, why not go in new directions? WOT is the opposite of traditional MMO. Ditch everything but instanced pvp batter. PS2 is teh same .. just do world pvp but nothing else. Also there are ARPG which essentially is doing nothing but instanced dungeons.

All those things seem to be successful. May be the time of traditional pure MMO has passed .. and the time for adjacent, MMO-like games has arrived.

Naw, I think the time of the Mega MMORPG has passed, fewer AAA firms will try to appeal to a broad player base, and the genre will likely shrink down to some smaller firms catering to more niche markets while big boys go off and build whatever pleases the masses.

Not every new store that opens intends to become WalMart

 

Oh there is definitely some of that .. look at the indie gaming movement.

However, there will still be AAA games, just not in the mold of the traditional MMOs. Look at Destiny .. new big game from Bungie with *some* MMO elements but strictly speaking not a MMO. That is the future.

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2294

World > Quest Progression

3/13/13 1:33:12 PM#211
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Burntvet
 

 

There is also such a thing as over-saturation in a given market segment. The themepark segment is overloaded. The casual, click and go, get right into the game with no thought has been done to death. If game makers want players to stay with a title for more than 1 month, there should be enough depth to ensure that, instead of instance grinds and gear grinds. Now, the market segment that wants a deeper, virtual world type of experience is almost unserved. Usually, the hardest thing in business is to identify the market segment in which you can be successful. In the MMO space, it seems to be the other way around: the market opportunity is there, but no one wants to take it.

There is over-saturation .. that is why there are different games like LOL, and WOT .. and they are successful.

Looking at just the "MMO" space is limiting. If a dev is good at doing online games, why not go in new directions? WOT is the opposite of traditional MMO. Ditch everything but instanced pvp batter. PS2 is teh same .. just do world pvp but nothing else. Also there are ARPG which essentially is doing nothing but instanced dungeons.

All those things seem to be successful. May be the time of traditional pure MMO has passed .. and the time for adjacent, MMO-like games has arrived.

Naw, I think the time of the Mega MMORPG has passed, fewer AAA firms will try to appeal to a broad player base, and the genre will likely shrink down to some smaller firms catering to more niche markets while big boys go off and build whatever pleases the masses.

Not every new store that opens intends to become WalMart

Oh there is definitely some of that .. look at the indie gaming movement.

However, there will still be AAA games, just not in the mold of the traditional MMOs. Look at Destiny .. new big game from Bungie with *some* MMO elements but strictly speaking not a MMO. That is the future.

 

You're right, traditional SPRPGs are taking on MMO features and that is the future due to PSN and Live.  Traditional MMOs? If they're going away were a long ways off IMO since none of us have a crystal ball.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1288

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

3/13/13 1:38:15 PM#212


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Aelious We're on MMORPG.com in the Pub section that is about MMOs, any conversation here by definition should be about MMOs and limited as such. The comparison to WoT and LoL is not applicable because they are top of their class and targeted at a diffrerent audience. If there were 10 more LoL/WoT type big name games you would see the same saturation problems plaguing the MMORPG scene. The "MMO-like" games have generally attracted an addition to the Internet gaming scene. The evidence of this is that the numbers WoT/LoL bring do not compare with the losses MMOs have. It's a seperate issue.
What loss? The MMO market grew 14% in revenue from 2011 to 2012.

http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/


Interesting article. Yes, 'MMO' revenues are up 14% in the U.S. If costs went up by more than 14% that indicates decline. The article also says:


there is another key reasons why some MMO companies are struggling to maintain healthy profitability and revenue growth. This is the extreme rise in cost of acquisition per registered player


Furthermore, keep in mind that many players were 'fooled' into buying products they ultimately disliked. They will be much more hesitant to do so in the future.

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

3/13/13 1:58:48 PM#213
Originally posted by Aelious

You're right, traditional SPRPGs are taking on MMO features and that is the future due to PSN and Live.  Traditional MMOs? If they're going away were a long ways off IMO since none of us have a crystal ball.

Of course no one can perfectly predict the future.

But let me say this ... the new innovation and development in non-MMO online games excit me a lot more than traditional MMOs. There are where i see new exciting games.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

3/13/13 1:59:48 PM#214
Originally posted by Arclan


Furthermore, keep in mind that many players were 'fooled' into buying products they ultimately disliked. They will be much more hesitant to do so in the future.

Where do you get that? If you read the article, most players are doing F2P without paying a cent. That is the beauty of F2P. You will never be fooled into buying anything. You play the game for free first.

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2294

World > Quest Progression

3/13/13 2:40:43 PM#215
Nariusseldon

I can see how those games would excite you since those seem to be the kind you like. We all tend to notice more of what we like and I hope you have many years of gaming enjoyment to come. I, on the opposite side of the yard, am more opt to pay more attention to the MMOs coming out.

There are many titles to keep the genre going though luckily not as many per year as it has strangulated the market, the full effects we haven't seen yet.

I think the biggest shift to MMOs may be platform and phasing. The PS4 for example boasts very nice numbers and would play an MMO great as far as I can see. Also, having "super servers" like TESO will probably see a lot more use from here on out. I love he fact that 100s or 1000s of people are "out there" playing with me in a big virtual world. That's why I'm not intereted in most SPRPGs or lobby games for very long. If you can trick me into thinking I'm playing with 1000s though only 100s are really there, I don't care.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

3/13/13 3:04:18 PM#216
Originally posted by Aelious
Nariusseldon

I can see how those games would excite you since those seem to be the kind you like. We all tend to notice more of what we like and I hope you have many years of gaming enjoyment to come. I, on the opposite side of the yard, am more opt to pay more attention to the MMOs coming out.
No argument here.


I think the biggest shift to MMOs may be platform and phasing. The PS4 for example boasts very nice numbers and would play an MMO great as far as I can see. Also, having "super servers" like TESO will probably see a lot more use from here on out. I love he fact that 100s or 1000s of people are "out there" playing with me in a big virtual world. That's why I'm not intereted in most SPRPGs or lobby games for very long. If you can trick me into thinking I'm playing with 1000s though only 100s are really there, I don't care.

I wonder if what turn you off from lobby gaming is that the explicit nature of matching (you go in .. choose to be match in a game), and that is immersion breaking.

I wonder if something like Destiny will suit you. It will implicitly match you with someone ... and from a gameplay perspective, you are in your world, and there are thousands potentially can appear .. and sometimes they do. If they don't tell you the underlying mechanism .. it would be as if you are in a big world, and sometimes other people appear .. and they will control it so that there is no crowding.

If that is the case .. the experience .. then you don't need a MMO. Whether it is an instance, or persistent world, or shard .. won't matter a bit. You will just have a consistent experience in a world that can potentailly enconter thousand of people ..seamlesslly.

 

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

3/13/13 3:15:36 PM#217
Originally posted by Theocritus
Originally posted by FromHell

wait 1-2 years, real revolution is coming

 

World of Darkness

Star Citizen

Elite Dangerous

Black Desert

Repopulation

AND EVERQUEST NEXT

 

 

the end of cartoony fantasy clones is nigh

 People always think great games are coming and when these great games finally launch we learn they aren't so great......

not in my case. Haven't been excited about many releases in the last 5 years. Well except SWTOR because it was Star Wars, but.. you know. The other title I was hyped about was TSW, that one at least met my expectations and the above mentioned ones have a high chance to be worth the hype as well.

not sure about Repopulation though, indie dev and small budget doesn't smell like AAA but who knows

Secrets of Dragon´s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.


.
The Return of ELITE !

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2294

World > Quest Progression

3/13/13 3:18:00 PM#218
To be honest I'll play anything if I think I'll enjoy it. I don't "need" MMOs but what I want to spend my time doing and playing can only be found there. For instance Skyrim looks like an incredible game but I'll likely never play it. I picked up Oblivion when it released and only played it for a week before going back to my MMO. SPRPGs to me are empty.

I'll look more into Destiny though I'm mostly excited by EQN ATM. If it features an online feature where you are paired with random people in a virtual world that sounds more like an MMO to me than a SPRPG.
  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1832

3/13/13 5:30:38 PM#219
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by nate198

 

True, the failure of SWTOR sent a larger message than any complaining on forums would. I'm not sure I'd still play a MMO made like the old school ones. I'm 10 years or more older now, and enjoy playing games in < 3 hour increments. However, there are some old ideas that just worked well in the MMORPG genre that I'd either like to see again, or like to improved upon.

Like what?  I can't think of anything that actually worked well that has totally gone away, in fact, the ideas that have gone away have largely been the ones that MMO evolution has selected against, they died for a reason.

Well, I guess I can list some features I enjoyed in my early days:

1. DAoC's 40+ classes, which each had their own unique flavor. 

2. DAoC's 10+ races, which mostly started in different areas of the map when the game first released.

3. A wide variety of ways to build any particular class, all of which will play completely different and with different skills used. Unlike new MMORPG's where, for example, all warriors will have the same skills, but can spec in a talent tree to specialize in some of those skills, while maybe getting 1-2 special skills from their tree. With that kind of class flexibility comes a lot of fun, freedom of choice, and the ability to gimp yourself. In other words, smart people end up with a good character, while stupid or lazy people gimp themselves.

4.Player made cities and housing. 

5. Persistent battlegrounds like DAoC.

6. Grouping being better xp than soloing.

7. No quest grinding

8. alternate level advancement (ie. Master Levels, Champion Levels, Realm Ranks, AA system from EQ2 etc)

9. Classes filling a niche in the group, instead of being able to do everything. Group dependency and balance, not balance for 1v1 encounters.

10. No items with stats on them. Items with special effects were rare. Weapons and armor could get stats on them if they went to a Master Crafter and had them spellchant them.

11. Open world (ie. No instances, extremely limited loading screens, no copies of the same map [ie. Coruscant1, Coruscant2])

12. Downtime between fights. This is minimized by grouping with people that cover your weaknesses.

13. 1v1 fights with mobs of equal level were challenging and required the used of everything you had to win. Instead of today, where I can go into any MMORPG post-WoW and solo mobs anywhere 4-6 levels above me.

 

Anyways, I really could think about this longer and come up with some more, but I'm threw. Basically, older games were more challenging, less forgiving, had more diversity, and more features other than combat. New games have homogenized all the classes, have taken any real choice out of advancement, have very little, if any, non-combat and crafting features, are solo centric, quest grinds, heavily instanced and zoned, combat centric, gear centric, and completely lack any sort of challenge outside of PvP and/or hardmode group content.

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1832

3/13/13 5:34:11 PM#220
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by nate198

 

True, the failure of SWTOR sent a larger message than any complaining on forums would. I'm not sure I'd still play a MMO made like the old school ones. I'm 10 years or more older now, and enjoy playing games in < 3 hour increments. However, there are some old ideas that just worked well in the MMORPG genre that I'd either like to see again, or like to improved upon.

Like what?  I can't think of anything that actually worked well that has totally gone away, in fact, the ideas that have gone away have largely been the ones that MMO evolution has selected against, they died for a reason.

There is some truth to what you are saying. But the reason for some of those features going away was sometimes a cost/benefit analysis based on dev time in building the game versus end product as received by users. A myopic approach has yielded results lately that are ungood for the same bean counters.

I don't really buy that.  Developers take the most popular elements and spend the most time on them because they are popular and will draw in the most paying players.  That's how business works.  What you're really saying is that developers don't waste their time on unpopular ideas and I agree with you.  Why?  Because they're unpopular!

Sounds to me that someone needs to take a marketing class at college. 

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