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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What does depth in an mmo mean to you?

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67 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/12/13 1:46:30 PM#41
Originally posted by Benedikt
its quite hard to define and it will proly means something else to everyone.

It's more a marketing term than an actual description of anything for exactly that reason.


One could write a feature list that would probably get 9 out of 10 MMO gamers to drool, however each of those 9 people has a completely different game in mind when reading it.

 

Deep crafting system!

     Meaningful PVP!

          Richly detailed game world!

               Epic team-based combat!

 

 

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

3/12/13 1:52:16 PM#42
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Benedikt
its quite hard to define and it will proly means something else to everyone.

It's more a marketing term than an actual description of anything for exactly that reason.


One could write a feature list that would probably get 9 out of 10 MMO gamers to drool, however each of those 9 people has a completely different game in mind when reading it.

 

Deep crafting system!

     Meaningful PVP!

          Richly detailed game world!

               Epic team-based combat!

 

 

Amazing!

Damn, youre good. I lol'd at this. Especially since the terms are so abused, and with such frequent mendacity that they are meaningless as coming from companies and shills.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  BitterClinger

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 205

2014 Watch List: World of Warships, Wildstar Online

3/12/13 1:53:25 PM#43
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Benedikt
its quite hard to define and it will proly means something else to everyone.

It's more a marketing term than an actual description of anything for exactly that reason.


One could write a feature list that would probably get 9 out of 10 MMO gamers to drool, however each of those 9 people has a completely different game in mind when reading it.

 

Deep crafting system!

     Meaningful PVP!

          Richly detailed game world!

               Epic team-based combat!

 

 

LOL! You just described EVERY MMO game that has EVER been released!!!

Top Games Played JAN 2014: World of Warplanes, Guild Wars 2, World of Tanks

  Phaserlight

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/04
Posts: 677

Do you want to improve the world? I don't think it can be done. -Lao Tzu

3/12/13 8:31:04 PM#44
Deep games tend to last, but a long-lived game isn't necessarily deep.

A deep game tends to allow strategy to flourish.

Complexity is not the same thing as depth.

Standing on the cliff
Your parachute is not there
Time to take the plunge

"To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
Check it out on Steam

  allendale5

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 125

3/12/13 8:45:16 PM#45
I feel depth in a game whenever I feel like there is something to lose or when I feel unique in some way.  When there is nothing to lose or no death or performance penalty whatsoever, then it feels holllow.  When I see my toon doing the same exact thing as 50 other players in the same area, it feels like it doesn't really matter if I am there or not.  And, it doesn't.
  Codenak

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/08
Posts: 418

3/12/13 8:46:56 PM#46

Depth to me is a fully fashioned world, one that lives, changes over time due to actions within its systems, that develops wether you are personally there or not. One where complexity or simplicty is possible and can occur simultaneously.

Where not everything is devoted to a linear experience in order to shove you to the end of their designated line as swiftly as possible.  A world where your story can be told and where you can listen to the stories of the those around you. Depth is nooks and crannies and gaps that players can inhabit in the pattern of a world. One where we can be surprised, delighted and on occasion awed, where we the players sometimes just have to say "OOOOOOOH"

F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html

  Aeolyn

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/08
Posts: 136

3/12/13 11:12:02 PM#47
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
I think a game with "depth" means you get drawn into playing despite yourself.  You didn't think you would take the game seriously or it wasn't going to last or you were just checking it out for kicks.  Next thing you know you have friends, family, guild mates, associates, and you are looking up on line how to accomplish your next goal.  You don't even know how it happened.  That is depth in gamers' terms to me.

When I played UO years ago I had written and distributed books of my own poetry to a few ingame friends, they were then able to lock them down in their homes for their visitors to read and comment on.  That's a brief example of depth for me. 

 

Re being drawn into a game, lol, I still get tingles when I hear the original soundtrack from UO as the treasure chest opened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X1gC3BLq2w

  Warmaker

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/07
Posts: 2233

3/12/13 11:54:43 PM#48
Originally posted by Merilirem

I read many people arguing against or for kinds of games and types of play they themselves enjoy. I read the responses, the many different and the same. An interesting factor in games is depth, in an mmo it seems to have been forgotten, not that it stopped existing, just what it means. The meaning may have changed or merged, it may have always been the same. So I ask the question.

What does depth in an mmo mean to you?

A good question, actually.

For me, "depth" in a game is sophistication;  You have the two extremes:  An overly simplified game that you don't need to worry much regarding the details.  They also tend to let you do less;  Fewer options, not too long to master.  The ones you hear guys joke of as having gameplay where you could roll your face on a keyboard and still do fine   On the other extreme is a very sophisticated game where there's tons of different stats, immense build possibilities, lots of viable options.  Due to the options, you have to sweat the details, because it's those little things that make your character strong or have some glaring weakness.

Also, a Crafting system with depth offers many options for customizations and building, even with the same item.  SWG for instance, allowed weaponsmiths to build the same E-11 blaster to have a focus on power, low usage cost cost, and mediocre accuracy.  Or he could opt for making it with high power, high usage cost, decent accuracy.  If he knew what he was doing.

Basically, a game with depth allows you to go far "down in the weeds" can with an aspect of the game due to increased variables and most especially options.  Combat, Crafting, etc.  A really deep MMORPG to me provides many different forms of playing and enjoyment, and a sophisticated form of play in that title's gaming aspects.

It's a fine line to tread though.  I despise the overly simplistic stuff.  On the other hand, even though I like sophisticated play, I dislike my RPGs/MMORPGs to be too complicated and tedious to play.

"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  phumbaba

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 72

3/13/13 9:31:38 AM#49

Very good answers in the thread already. What it means to me is

- I can do many not-pointless things in many different ways (replayability).

- I am not able to see with my ### what is my desired course of action, but I need to stop for a while and really think about it (too often it sees it and it feels like my ### has near 20/20 sight. Much better than my eyes actually). Notice that there doesn't need to be too much balance in the possible actions, just that they all need to be meaningful.

Notice that depth is very different from complexity and I'd also mention that to me at least a game loses depth immediately once min/maxers have taken over at the level I'm playing. (Rant Alert!!)

The goal of min/maxing is to force every1 to perform in "the most efficient" way. Like machines. For me, that immediately kills a lot of the depth in whatever the activity. Now I'm starting to blahblahblah but that get's me heated about my personal vendetta for gearscores and inspecting and game set itemscore requirements for content and player set itemscore requirements for content and dps meters and how crafting is today in so many games and... ffs

I need to cool down for a while. Guess I'm still in the process of denial of gear being the sole form of progression in endgame which is encouraged/expected to be reached within weeks... a "reality" I think I'll refuse to accept as long as I consider myself a gamer. When MMORPG's have the same balance FPS's have, I'll relish it in some games, but a balance like that with good rpg elements is imo neigh impossible.

While min/maxing, so much less playing hours is spent on other activities and all else is condemned by others. And the behaviour spreads. And developers use what works and the meter for that is often what players do in-game. Ergo, most games have been made for min/maxers for some time now.

I know full well that grind and inexperienced players give birth to the search for path of least resistance, in other words, min/maxing. Just that min/maxing leads to inexperienced players and grind and it's a game and well.. instead of just putting more grind in game, developers should consider other forms of progression. A bit like educating kids instead of giving them their instant satisfaction. To make them see there are other things they could enjoy with a bit of patience.

Sry for the rest of the post being pretty much a rant with bad grammar and kinda stating the obvious^^ Nice thread again.

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

3/13/13 9:37:44 AM#50

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/depth-vs.-complexity

^ That.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/13/13 10:26:11 AM#51
Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

I think it means WoW to me.

Well, WoW an basically any other title that survives eight years intact.

Has it survived because it is deep, or is it deep because it has survived? These aren't independent variables.

EQ's got a boatload of content too... and FFXI... and UO... and Runescape... and you get the idea.

But yup, I'll give 'variety of experience' a nod as a partial working definition for 'depth'. See that word 'partial' in there?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/13/13 10:31:51 AM#52
Originally posted by Loktofeit


One could write a feature list that would probably get 9 out of 10 MMO gamers to drool, however each of those 9 people has a completely different game in mind when reading it.

You can call someone out for reification once in a while; but forums won't ever stop using the undefined terms as concretes.

'Reification'--you're just trying to 'sound smart'.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19086

3/13/13 11:49:49 AM#53
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

I think it means WoW to me.

Well, WoW an basically any other title that survives eight years intact.

Has it survived because it is deep, or is it deep because it has survived? These aren't independent variables.

EQ's got a boatload of content too... and FFXI... and UO... and Runescape... and you get the idea.

But yup, I'll give 'variety of experience' a nod as a partial working definition for 'depth'. See that word 'partial' in there?

EQ has little depth in my books, at least when it was released till the first expansion.

Combat mechanics is simple (if you are a wiz, there is nothing but root & nuke, no CDs, no procs, no skill synergies). The gameplay style is simple. 99% of the time is killing the same spawn again and again.

Modern games are much better.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/13/13 12:00:25 PM#54
Originally posted by nariusseldon

EQ has little depth in my books, at least when it was released till the first expansion.

Modern games are much better.

Sure, certainly nothing's changed at all since 1999.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19086

3/13/13 12:15:47 PM#55
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by nariusseldon

EQ has little depth in my books, at least when it was released till the first expansion.

Modern games are much better.

Sure, certainly nothing's changed at all since 1999.

Did EQ has much more complex combat mechanics, compared to modern games? i don't think so.

  Merilirem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/01/13
Posts: 77

Do not fear the unknown, for it does not fear you.

 
OP  3/13/13 8:46:13 PM#56
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by nariusseldon

EQ has little depth in my books, at least when it was released till the first expansion.

Modern games are much better.

Sure, certainly nothing's changed at all since 1999.

Did EQ has much more complex combat mechanics, compared to modern games? i don't think so.

Game mechanics have changed over the years, but nothing worth mentioning. It's a slow progression waiting for new technology to hand us our games. I haven't found any games deeper then stuff like runescape, in my opinion anyway.

If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  Paradigm68

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 878

3/13/13 9:02:17 PM#57

Offering many styles of game play.

One of the things that always baffled me in mmo culture is the common theme of  "Since I don't like that particular gamestyle/gameplay, it shouldn't be in my game!"  I understand that complaint in a regular video game where the scope of play is generally narrow as a default of the type of game the desingners made, but it doesn't make sense in an MMO, where you want as many people playing in as many ways as possible to provide the real depth of an MMO: Community.

For example, I'm not into crafting. But I want a game with as rich, complex, interesting and intelligent as possible because  I want the people who do like that, in my game. Those people in my game make my game more fun to be in.  Same goes for every other mmo dynamic.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19086

3/13/13 9:04:52 PM#58
Originally posted by Merilirem
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by nariusseldon

EQ has little depth in my books, at least when it was released till the first expansion.

Modern games are much better.

Sure, certainly nothing's changed at all since 1999.

Did EQ has much more complex combat mechanics, compared to modern games? i don't think so.

Game mechanics have changed over the years, but nothing worth mentioning. It's a slow progression waiting for new technology to hand us our games. I haven't found any games deeper then stuff like runescape, in my opinion anyway.

Certainly not my opinion.

Combat mechanics have progressed far. Now we have procs, CDs, synergy skills (CD reduction by crit, and things like that). Those things are certainly NOT in EQ.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19086

3/13/13 9:06:07 PM#59
Originally posted by Paradigm68

Offering many styles of game play.

One of the things that always baffled me in mmo culture is the common theme of  "Since I don't like that particular gamestyle/gameplay, it shouldn't be in my game!"  I understand that complaint in a regular video game where the scope of play is generally narrow as a default of the type of game the desingners made, but it doesn't make sense in an MMO, where you want as many people playing in as many ways as possible to provide the real depth of an MMO: Community.

For example, I'm not into crafting. But I want a game with as rich, complex, interesting and intelligent as possible because  I want the people who do like that, in my game. Those people in my game make my game more fun to be in.  Same goes for every other mmo dynamic.

 

Nah .. it is more like "since i don't like that gameplay, i don't care if it is in my game".

And why would people who like something else make it more fun? It is not like you are going to group with them to craft.

  Paradigm68

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 878

3/13/13 9:31:14 PM#60
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Paradigm68

Offering many styles of game play.

One of the things that always baffled me in mmo culture is the common theme of  "Since I don't like that particular gamestyle/gameplay, it shouldn't be in my game!"  I understand that complaint in a regular video game where the scope of play is generally narrow as a default of the type of game the desingners made, but it doesn't make sense in an MMO, where you want as many people playing in as many ways as possible to provide the real depth of an MMO: Community.

For example, I'm not into crafting. But I want a game with as rich, complex, interesting and intelligent as possible because  I want the people who do like that, in my game. Those people in my game make my game more fun to be in.  Same goes for every other mmo dynamic.

 

Nah .. it is more like "since i don't like that gameplay, i don't care if it is in my game".

And why would people who like something else make it more fun? It is not like you are going to group with them to craft.

I've seen plenty of posts of people arguing against including game mechanics they don't like in the game, especially things like crafting or housing, even though they wouldn't be required to craft or have a house. It often is "Since I don't like that particular gamestyle/gameplay, it shouldn't be in my game!"

To me an MMORPG is a world simulator and to that end I like having many different kinds of people in the gameworld, playing many different kinds of ways. It fills the game out, it provides depth. Grouping is hardly the only reason to interact with other players. As the point of the post is asking, playing an MMORPG where everyone is doing the same thing lacks depth.

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