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Neverwinter

Neverwinter 

General Discussion  » Rooted in place

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207 posts found
  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16476

3/12/13 7:42:31 AM#121
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

I saw. Cleric video and the player was complaining thatwith every spell he casted, he w unable to move and rooted on the spot.  That sounds just plain stupid for an action based combat system, doesnt it?

The problem is that this is in line with the lore.

In D&D many spells limit your movement, particularly wizards spells. That is why D&D isnt a great model for a more action based MMO mechanics while working for more tactical games.

This is not Cryptics fault and anyone who played Biowares NWN remember the same thing there. Maybe they should have used some other mechanics instead, if they would have based it on Pathfinder there would have been some more flexibility and it would have been even more if they based it on something like Warhammer.

The real problem is that clerics doesnt cast that many spells in the P&P game. Sure, you do some healing, some buffs and even a attack spell or 2 but they spend a lot of time smacking in the opponents head with a morningstar as well, in fact our cleric in our last campign were so much tanking as we had (no aggro control but he did walk in front and took the main damage), not that much casting for him.

Wizards are standing so still because of balance, their spells are really OP but they are very fragile, the favorite target of any mob and lacks mobility. That type of balancing might not work so well in a action MMO.

  User Deleted
3/12/13 7:58:43 AM#122
I didn't have any issues evading mid-attack in this beta round, so I am fine with the rooting. I can see how wizards and clerics reverse strafing while casting would end up being rediculous. The main issue I had with it last beta weekend was that my rogue would get locked in an animation and then get blasted by an AE that was completely avoidable. Now that is fixed I am fine with it.
  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

3/12/13 8:00:52 AM#123
Originally posted by Monstre0auS
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

this is only proof of the FPS players invading the mmorpg genre and slowly taking out the RPG aspect.

Ppl that dont have a effing clue about D&D.

In D&D in order to a mage cast a spell he needs to be concentrate  while making certain hand gestures and movements allied with words with perfection for the spell work. IT s NOT A FART OR A BURP its a SPELL with spetacular effects.

u adhd kids and ur twich combat, go play COD with retarded kids where u belong.

RED: I hate to argue with you, as I did in fact argue the same point earlier in thread (using magicians from fantasy novels as inspiration), but in 3ed and 3.5ed there were feats mages could take that allowed them to cast spells without gestures, sound, reagents or even removed cast times! - The one thing that rings true is that the magician had to be able to concentrate still, so this could barely be pulled off whilst on the run from a fireball, or if you were knocked out...

However, in the same edition, certain rituals and crafting attempts for example required several hours of concentration! Meaning that wizards who flapped a butt cheek to fart would ruin that attempt! So yes, there were exceptions to your rule, but ultimately in terms of storytelling, you are correct.

correct me if im wrong, but these feats are cumulative for a single spell?

if memory does not fail me u can cast a fireball without reagents or without gestures or without sound,  but not all of them in a single spell.

  Monstre0auS

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/12
Posts: 46

3/12/13 8:28:40 AM#124
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by Monstre0auS
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

this is only proof of the FPS players invading the mmorpg genre and slowly taking out the RPG aspect.

Ppl that dont have a effing clue about D&D.

In D&D in order to a mage cast a spell he needs to be concentrate  while making certain hand gestures and movements allied with words with perfection for the spell work. IT s NOT A FART OR A BURP its a SPELL with spetacular effects.

u adhd kids and ur twich combat, go play COD with retarded kids where u belong.

RED: I hate to argue with you, as I did in fact argue the same point earlier in thread (using magicians from fantasy novels as inspiration), but in 3ed and 3.5ed there were feats mages could take that allowed them to cast spells without gestures, sound, reagents or even removed cast times! - The one thing that rings true is that the magician had to be able to concentrate still, so this could barely be pulled off whilst on the run from a fireball, or if you were knocked out...

However, in the same edition, certain rituals and crafting attempts for example required several hours of concentration! Meaning that wizards who flapped a butt cheek to fart would ruin that attempt! So yes, there were exceptions to your rule, but ultimately in terms of storytelling, you are correct.

correct me if im wrong, but these feats are cumulative for a single spell?

if memory does not fail me u can cast a fireball without reagents or without gestures or without sound,  but not all of them in a single spell.

You are indeed correct and I apologise for having not made it clearer in my post. You could cast spells without needing vocalisation, you could cast spells without the gestures, you could cast spells without reagents, but only a DM could do all of this at the same time!

  Alber_gamer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/08/12
Posts: 455

3/12/13 9:10:11 AM#125
Originally posted by Monstre0auS
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by Monstre0auS
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

this is only proof of the FPS players invading the mmorpg genre and slowly taking out the RPG aspect.

Ppl that dont have a effing clue about D&D.

In D&D in order to a mage cast a spell he needs to be concentrate  while making certain hand gestures and movements allied with words with perfection for the spell work. IT s NOT A FART OR A BURP its a SPELL with spetacular effects.

u adhd kids and ur twich combat, go play COD with retarded kids where u belong.

RED: I hate to argue with you, as I did in fact argue the same point earlier in thread (using magicians from fantasy novels as inspiration), but in 3ed and 3.5ed there were feats mages could take that allowed them to cast spells without gestures, sound, reagents or even removed cast times! - The one thing that rings true is that the magician had to be able to concentrate still, so this could barely be pulled off whilst on the run from a fireball, or if you were knocked out...

However, in the same edition, certain rituals and crafting attempts for example required several hours of concentration! Meaning that wizards who flapped a butt cheek to fart would ruin that attempt! So yes, there were exceptions to your rule, but ultimately in terms of storytelling, you are correct.

correct me if im wrong, but these feats are cumulative for a single spell?

if memory does not fail me u can cast a fireball without reagents or without gestures or without sound,  but not all of them in a single spell.

You are indeed correct and I apologise for having not made it clearer in my post. You could cast spells without needing vocalisation, you could cast spells without the gestures, you could cast spells without reagents, but only a DM could do all of this at the same time!

Not to say that when you use any metamagic feat, the spell becomes a higher level to cast, up to three levels higher for Quickened spells, which are the ones that can be cast instantly.

 

I would see as good thing a cooldown ability that allows casters to move while casting for a short period of time, much like Shaman's Spiritwalk in WoW, but in my own point of view, I insist that rooting is necessary, and welcome in any ARPG. From the Legend of Zelda to Diablo 3, and everything in between.

 

I will accept and respect the comments of people that think they'd enjoy the game more if it didn't have rooting, each one is entitled to their own opinion. But every worthwhile action RPG has used rooting as a tactical mechanic and those who can't see that fact or say that rooting doesn't belong to the ARPG genre is just clueless.

My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

3/12/13 9:21:23 AM#126
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Alber_gamer

I think the rooting does not only belong to action gamse, but also it's a necessary gameplay and tactical element. I normally lose respect pretty quickly for action games that allow you to just run around freely as you swing a two handed sword or cast a powerful spell, or just allow you to do a 180 direction change mid-jump. To me it's so absurd that it breaks the immersion and makes me think of outdated mechanics typical of the arcades in the 90's.

 

Even the most acclaimed ARPG saga of all time, Diablo, uses rooting not only when casting spells, also when doing melee attacks. Rooting in action games has always existed, and will always exist. It adds the important element of forcing you to make decissions such as skill timing or choose when you can afford to attack, or will have to settle for a more defensive approach. I value the feature, and I enjoy its existance. It's here to stay, and rightly so.

 

When I want to play mindless button mashers, I switch to console games.

i will agree rooting is probably not going anywhere and when done right i like it.. For example batman arkham games I felt had very fun and fluid combat even with the rooting.. but for whatever reason certain games and rooting feel very off for me.. diablo i couldn't stand the rooting but mostly because it's a point and click game to begin with. I think it's honestly the animations in this game as in games like vindictous I don't mind the rooting either. Just something about the ranged classes animations feels wrong and it turns me off to their combat.. 

but then again Tera had some very nice animations and the ranged classes rooting felt all wrong.. so i dunno has to be a combination of the animations and how the skills transition from one to the other that bothers me... but guess I'm just picky in that way... oh well melee it is for me I guess as I don't see this changing much...

Reduction in movement while executing a skill is a must for an action combat game, else you could just kite all damage with little effort.  If you didn't have some sort of rooting or dramatic speed reduction then the mobs would need to run faster than the player.

It's how the rooting is implemented that is the problem.  It feels stuttery and jerky which is not how you want your action combat to feel.  I'm used to the system now and how to use the dodge mechanic to break animations, but it's not smooth compared to the GW2, Tera, or TL2.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  SoMuchMass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/12/13 10:33:31 AM#127
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Skeetz
Originally posted by Asm0deus
No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

 Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

Just take any real action game, MMO or not going back to the 80's. I will not start quoting games at you if you can't see what I am saying.

You won't start "quoting games" because you have no examples.  Most action games including the god fathers of action games root you.  I will name them again:

  • Diablo, God of War, Bayonetta, Kingdoms of Amalur, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dark Soul, Devil May Cry even games like Street Fighter and Mortal Combat

I just don't think you have played any action games.

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 782

3/12/13 6:04:08 PM#128
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Skeetz
Originally posted by Asm0deus
No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

 Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

Just take any real action game, MMO or not going back to the 80's. I will not start quoting games at you if you can't see what I am saying.

You won't start "quoting games" because you have no examples.  Most action games including the god fathers of action games root you.  I will name them again:

  • Diablo, God of War, Bayonetta, Kingdoms of Amalur, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dark Soul, Devil May Cry even games like Street Fighter and Mortal Combat

I just don't think you have played any action games.

I have been playing video games since atari and colecovision, these game you mention are far from the grand daddy of anything.  From your post I would deduce that I have forgotten more games than you have even played.

Troll on though!

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  ranncore

Novice Member

Joined: 12/11/12
Posts: 93

3/12/13 8:41:05 PM#129
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Skeetz
Originally posted by Asm0deus
No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

 Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

Just take any real action game, MMO or not going back to the 80's. I will not start quoting games at you if you can't see what I am saying.

You won't start "quoting games" because you have no examples.  Most action games including the god fathers of action games root you.  I will name them again:

  • Diablo, God of War, Bayonetta, Kingdoms of Amalur, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dark Soul, Devil May Cry even games like Street Fighter and Mortal Combat

I just don't think you have played any action games.

I have been playing video games since atari and colecovision, these game you mention are far from the grand daddy of anything.  From your post I would deduce that I have forgotten more games than you have even played.

Troll on though!

On the contrary, every modern ARPG can trace it's roots back to Diablo, Bayonetta and Dark Souls are widely considered modern classics, and Street Fighter and Mortal Combat are the games where this literally all began. 

Unless you can cite some examples of your own I'm going to say that the TL; DR here is that you have nothing to add to this conversation other than a misinformed opinion. 

  ranncore

Novice Member

Joined: 12/11/12
Posts: 93

3/12/13 8:44:49 PM#130
Originally posted by Torvaldr
 

It's how the rooting is implemented that is the problem.  It feels stuttery and jerky which is not how you want your action combat to feel.  I'm used to the system now and how to use the dodge mechanic to break animations, but it's not smooth compared to the GW2, Tera, or TL2.

I actually think the problem stems from the Attack Qeueing system. You have by now no doubt realised that when you click the left mouse button twice, even tho it takes 1.5 seconds for your attack to finish, the next one is already lined up. This means that if you're out of stamina, there's no way to interupt whatever is lined up in the action qeue so that you can walk away. 

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 782

3/13/13 3:17:06 AM#131
Originally posted by ranncore
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Skeetz
Originally posted by Asm0deus
No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

 Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

Just take any real action game, MMO or not going back to the 80's. I will not start quoting games at you if you can't see what I am saying.

You won't start "quoting games" because you have no examples.  Most action games including the god fathers of action games root you.  I will name them again:

  • Diablo, God of War, Bayonetta, Kingdoms of Amalur, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dark Soul, Devil May Cry even games like Street Fighter and Mortal Combat

I just don't think you have played any action games.

I have been playing video games since atari and colecovision, these game you mention are far from the grand daddy of anything.  From your post I would deduce that I have forgotten more games than you have even played.

Troll on though!

On the contrary, every modern ARPG can trace it's roots back to Diablo, Bayonetta and Dark Souls are widely considered modern classics, and Street Fighter and Mortal Combat are the games where this literally all began. 

Unless you can cite some examples of your own I'm going to say that the TL; DR here is that you have nothing to add to this conversation other than a misinformed opinion. 

Really ranncore are you telling me there were no action games before these ones lol   Street fighter came out in 87 and Mortal Kombat came out in 92 and was an arcade game.

 

You guys have got to be kidding me, have you not ever played some of the old DOS games lol there were many many action games where you could attack while moving.

lmao

 

Modern classics my behind, they are only classic if your like 25 or so which in the scheme of things is still kind of young, it's like 12 year olds claiming stuff is OLD SKOOL BABY

 

But w/e floats your boat.  Be sure I will TL; DR your next posts myself.

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  SavageHorizon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1551

3/13/13 3:47:24 AM#132
Originally posted by Skeetz
Originally posted by Asm0deus
No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

 Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

That's the problem with GW2 fans, nothing came before GW2 LOL. The OP make a silly thread complaining about how action combat should work without realizing  that it's actually GW2 that is not normal action combat.

Imagine the uproar if you went to there forum and moaned about the GW2 combat lol, you would be hung out to dry. 

 

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  DeniZg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/12
Posts: 498

3/13/13 3:48:45 AM#133
Originally posted by Asm0deus

You guys have got to be kidding me, have you not ever played some of the old DOS games lol there were many many action games where you could attack while moving.

lmao

 

Prince of Persia comes to my mind. It had rooted combat (you couldn't cancel your attack moves IIRC).

 

  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

3/13/13 6:26:41 AM#134

DOWN with the rooting.

 

I dont care if it is realistic or not. It breaks the fluidity of the combat. It feels like turn based combat with the rooting. We were promised action combat.

 

Bring back the non-rooted combat I played at PAX. That was massive fun before nerf bat hit the combat with realism.

  goosie

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 69

3/13/13 12:24:56 PM#135
Originally posted by Asm0deus

Really ranncore are you telling me there were no action games before these ones lol   Street fighter came out in 87 and Mortal Kombat came out in 92 and was an arcade game.

 

You guys have got to be kidding me, have you not ever played some of the old DOS games lol there were many many action games where you could attack while moving.

lmao

 

Modern classics my behind, they are only classic if your like 25 or so which in the scheme of things is still kind of young, it's like 12 year olds claiming stuff is OLD SKOOL BABY

 

But w/e floats your boat.  Be sure I will TL; DR your next posts myself.

PC was not the platform for innovative action games back in the day, certainly not DOS - the arcades were with companies like (in no particular order): Capcom (Final Fight, SF1), Sega (Golden Axe), Taito & Technos (Double Dragon), and Data East (Renegade) all making beat-em-ups/fighters and defining the action genre. No, they were not the first action games, but they were the ones that defined the genre into what we know as action combat today. Can you guess what the one thing they all had in common was? ROOTING. So please, enough with your hollow opinions and provide some evidence if you're going to be so belligerent about it.

I'll add that it's okay to just not like rooted combat. Everybody's taste is different. Some people prefer to eat McDonald's rather than a meal at a decent restaurant, and that's totally their preference and nothing can change that. However, you can't try to convince the general population that your choice is the best because there's no evidence to support that and the whole industry is has been going in the complete opposite direction of what you "prefer".

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 782

3/13/13 3:52:29 PM#136
Originally posted by goosie
Originally posted by Asm0deus

Really ranncore are you telling me there were no action games before these ones lol   Street fighter came out in 87 and Mortal Kombat came out in 92 and was an arcade game.

 

You guys have got to be kidding me, have you not ever played some of the old DOS games lol there were many many action games where you could attack while moving.

lmao

 

Modern classics my behind, they are only classic if your like 25 or so which in the scheme of things is still kind of young, it's like 12 year olds claiming stuff is OLD SKOOL BABY

 

But w/e floats your boat.  Be sure I will TL; DR your next posts myself.

PC was not the platform for innovative action games back in the day, certainly not DOS - the arcades were with companies like (in no particular order): Capcom (Final Fight, SF1), Sega (Golden Axe), Taito & Technos (Double Dragon), and Data East (Renegade) all making beat-em-ups/fighters and defining the action genre. No, they were not the first action games, but they were the ones that defined the genre into what we know as action combat today. Can you guess what the one thing they all had in common was? ROOTING. So please, enough with your hollow opinions and provide some evidence if you're going to be so belligerent about it.

I'll add that it's okay to just not like rooted combat. Everybody's taste is different. Some people prefer to eat McDonald's rather than a meal at a decent restaurant, and that's totally their preference and nothing can change that. However, you can't try to convince the general population that your choice is the best because there's no evidence to support that and the whole industry is has been going in the complete opposite direction of what you "prefer".

Rooting is a technique some old action games used that was shoddy, saying it defines the genre is asinine and sure as hell more of a step backwards than forwards.

 

You guys are you taking the example of some games but ignoring the rest of them just to try and prove you a right.  You guys are taking just action "combat"  and forgeting all the rest of the "action" games.

 

Hollow opinions my arse I mean unless you think MMOs are going in such a GREAT direction, so deep and invovled if you will, the truth is the  whole industry is making games for peeps with ADD.

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  goosie

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 69

3/13/13 5:20:04 PM#137
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by goosie
Originally posted by Asm0deus

Really ranncore are you telling me there were no action games before these ones lol   Street fighter came out in 87 and Mortal Kombat came out in 92 and was an arcade game.

 

You guys have got to be kidding me, have you not ever played some of the old DOS games lol there were many many action games where you could attack while moving.

lmao

 

Modern classics my behind, they are only classic if your like 25 or so which in the scheme of things is still kind of young, it's like 12 year olds claiming stuff is OLD SKOOL BABY

 

But w/e floats your boat.  Be sure I will TL; DR your next posts myself.

PC was not the platform for innovative action games back in the day, certainly not DOS - the arcades were with companies like (in no particular order): Capcom (Final Fight, SF1), Sega (Golden Axe), Taito & Technos (Double Dragon), and Data East (Renegade) all making beat-em-ups/fighters and defining the action genre. No, they were not the first action games, but they were the ones that defined the genre into what we know as action combat today. Can you guess what the one thing they all had in common was? ROOTING. So please, enough with your hollow opinions and provide some evidence if you're going to be so belligerent about it.

I'll add that it's okay to just not like rooted combat. Everybody's taste is different. Some people prefer to eat McDonald's rather than a meal at a decent restaurant, and that's totally their preference and nothing can change that. However, you can't try to convince the general population that your choice is the best because there's no evidence to support that and the whole industry is has been going in the complete opposite direction of what you "prefer".

Rooting is a technique some old action games used that was shoddy, saying it defines the genre is asinine and sure as hell more of a step backwards than forwards.

 

You guys are you taking the example of some games but ignoring the rest of them just to try and prove you a right.  You guys are taking just action "combat"  and forgeting all the rest of the "action" games.

 

Hollow opinions my arse I mean unless you think MMOs are going in such a GREAT direction, so deep and invovled if you will, the truth is the  whole industry is making games for peeps with ADD.

L2read, I said those action games were the heyday games that defined the genre, and rooting is a common denominator in those action game.

So why keep dodging the question? What are these "other" action games you are getting at that are sooooooo good that only you seem to recall?

IMO you're spewing garbage, you have nothing to back up your opinion on the matter other than "I hate what you guys like, therefore I am right". 

  fiontar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/04
Posts: 3687

3/13/13 6:07:17 PM#138

Rooted "action" combat was really a transition step between turn based combat and fully realized action combat. Rooting doesn't "need to go" because that's the way GW2 does combat, GW2 just proved that fluid, non-rooted combat is now fully achievable and rooted combat is thus now an archaic throwback to a thankfully now dead era.

A lot of concessions need to be made in game design due to technical and design limitations. One of the major elements marking the end of one generation of games and the beginning of the next is some significant progress towards eliminating one or more of those concessions.

The era of rooted combat in MMOs has passed and MMO developers who don't adapt to the new reality are doing themselves, their game and their fans a huge dis-service.

Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 782

3/13/13 8:02:05 PM#139
Originally posted by fiontar

Rooted "action" combat was really a transition step between turn based combat and fully realized action combat. Rooting doesn't "need to go" because that's the way GW2 does combat, GW2 just proved that fluid, non-rooted combat is now fully achievable and rooted combat is thus now an archaic throwback to a thankfully now dead era.

A lot of concessions need to be made in game design due to technical and design limitations. One of the major elements marking the end of one generation of games and the beginning of the next is some significant progress towards eliminating one or more of those concessions.

The era of rooted combat in MMOs has passed and MMO developers who don't adapt to the new reality are doing themselves, their game and their fans a huge dis-service.

Yay someone that can use his brain and see rooting for what it was/is ! 

 

Btw I don't play GW2 as I am not a fan of how gear works in that game but it IS a step in the right direction, a proper step forwards.

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  SoMuchMass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/13/13 8:13:26 PM#140

GW2 combat is NOT "action combat".  So many face palms in this thread.  People bringing up DOS games as a comparison and actually thinking GW2 is "action combat".  I cringed.  GW2 is a clunky tab/target type of game with a aimbot mechanic.  

It is easy to make games spammy and mindless.  It is harder to make games with thought and actual action combat.  There is a reason GW2 is a virtually dead game, because it offered no depth in terms of combat or gameplay.  It was mindless.

The future does not belong to lazy developers who take the easy way out with spammy and mindless combat.

The problem with Neverwinter is the crappy animations.

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