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Neverwinter

Neverwinter 

General Discussion  » Rooted in place

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207 posts found
  fledur

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/06/08
Posts: 77

3/11/13 2:01:07 PM#101

I like the self root, because it makes the combat more strategic...imo it takes skill to know when to perform a move, when to dodge, reposition, etc.

It's not mindless moving around like GW2 (I like GW2, but the combat is a weak point for me)...without the rooting, avoiding the big attacks would be trivial. I like that it is possible to take on a big pack of mobs and, if you play properly, take almost no damage while others shug potions like crazy.

Imo, the "slow moving while casting" suggestion would make the gameplay feel weird and solve nothing in the process, because ppl would just start to complain about the "self snare" instead.

That said, I'm a veteran TERA player...so I'm used to the root on an even greater degree (TERA roots you for longer, your character moves slower while in combat, etc). At the beginning I hated it, but after I actually learned the combat it became very fun and different from classic combat games (WoW, EQ, etc).

 

 

  Agrias34

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/09
Posts: 147

3/11/13 3:44:10 PM#102

I think the combat is fine how it is.  The only small term change I could see being implemented would be faster animation times which means less time standing still after using a skill etc. and balancing each individual skill differently so that you can move faster after using certain skills, meaning said certain skills are quicker to cast, and some skills that do larger amounts of damage or larger area of effects may root you for a longer duration than said other skills that are weaker or highly mobile.

For example, I played a cleric up to level 10, I typically don't like playing beta's too long because it ruins the fun for me when the game actually launches, but I could suggest that the basic left click ability which throws spears could have less animation time so that you can sort of throw a spear, take a small step back in between throws, and continue the chain of throwing the spears since the 3rd spear does more damage.  But some skills like my daily power that calls down the angel wings of light or whatnot, which does a lot of damage and also knocks down or stuns the enemy(something like that) should take longer to cast and hinder your movement capabilities more than just basic and smaller attacks.

I'm not suggesting to completey remove the rooting system for the weaker, more mobile skills, but just tweaking them slightly to improve upon their current system which is fine altogether.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/11/13 4:16:55 PM#103
Originally posted by Agrias34

I think the combat is fine how it is.  The only small term change I could see being implemented would be faster animation times which means less time standing still after using a skill etc. and balancing each individual skill differently so that you can move faster after using certain skills, meaning said certain skills are quicker to cast, and some skills that do larger amounts of damage or larger area of effects may root you for a longer duration than said other skills that are weaker or highly mobile.

For example, I played a cleric up to level 10, I typically don't like playing beta's too long because it ruins the fun for me when the game actually launches, but I could suggest that the basic left click ability which throws spears could have less animation time so that you can sort of throw a spear, take a small step back in between throws, and continue the chain of throwing the spears since the 3rd spear does more damage.  But some skills like my daily power that calls down the angel wings of light or whatnot, which does a lot of damage and also knocks down or stuns the enemy(something like that) should take longer to cast and hinder your movement capabilities more than just basic and smaller attacks.

I'm not suggesting to completey remove the rooting system for the weaker, more mobile skills, but just tweaking them slightly to improve upon their current system which is fine altogether.

i agree.. overall it's not the rooting that is the core issue for me it's how it looks/feels. It's really an animation and transition between animations issue.. as i have said in earlier posts in other games like dmc and other fast paced action games there is a very smooth animation transition between skills even if rooting is used it is hardly noticable at all.. some animation speed ups and tweaks would do wonders

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 919

3/11/13 4:36:50 PM#104

I have noticed some have not played the game very much or leved up very much in it.  The problem with rooting is not very evident until you get into some higher levels where difficulty ramps up. If you try try out the 40+ content you will see rooting may not be a problem before then but it does become one afterwards.

 

The game is quite easy up till 30ish where it slowly gets harder and this is where you will see peeps dying becuase they are rooted during an animation.

In end game content it is even worse where you can routinely be one shot killed if hit and where cleric healing/potting is kind of laughable and more for in between fights.

 

I don't mind it so much at lower levels but at high levels it just kills gameplay for me, tactics notwithstanding.

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  Skeetz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/24/06
Posts: 24

3/11/13 5:43:59 PM#105
Originally posted by Asm0deus

I have noticed some have not played the game very much or leved up very much in it.  The problem with rooting is not very evident until you get into some higher levels where difficulty ramps up. If you try try out the 40+ content you will see rooting may not be a problem before then but it does become one afterwards.

 

The game is quite easy up till 30ish where it slowly gets harder and this is where you will see peeps dying becuase they are rooted during an animation.

In end game content it is even worse where you can routinely be one shot killed if hit and where cleric healing/potting is kind of laughable and more for in between fights.

 

I don't mind it so much at lower levels but at high levels it just kills gameplay for me, tactics notwithstanding.

They're dying because they're not paying attention to the mob's animation. NPCs have telegraphs too and if they start a big attack and the player doesn't pay any attention to it and fail to move out of the kill zone he will get hit. 

Reason that doesnt happen in lower lvls is because they got away with it with mobs that dont hit as hard so they kept doing the same thing at higher lvls - guess what...you get one shotted while in middle of your combat animation.

This is what it means by action combat - There is NO TAB Targetting. You have to be aware of your position , the boss' position and what the boss is doing as opposed to spamming your skills and movement keys.

  Destai

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/09
Posts: 509

3/11/13 5:45:45 PM#106
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

I saw. Cleric video and the player was complaining thatwith every spell he casted, he w unable to move and rooted on the spot.  That sounds just plain stupid for an action based combat system, doesnt it?

 

Thanks for sharing. I can officially rule this game out.

Current MMOs: Wildstar, Guild Wars 2, the Secret World, World of Warcraft

Past Loves: Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online, Everquest

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 919

3/11/13 5:49:42 PM#107
Originally posted by Skeetz
Originally posted by Asm0deus

I have noticed some have not played the game very much or leved up very much in it.  The problem with rooting is not very evident until you get into some higher levels where difficulty ramps up. If you try try out the 40+ content you will see rooting may not be a problem before then but it does become one afterwards.

 

The game is quite easy up till 30ish where it slowly gets harder and this is where you will see peeps dying becuase they are rooted during an animation.

In end game content it is even worse where you can routinely be one shot killed if hit and where cleric healing/potting is kind of laughable and more for in between fights.

 

I don't mind it so much at lower levels but at high levels it just kills gameplay for me, tactics notwithstanding.

They're dying because they're not paying attention to the mob's animation. NPCs have telegraphs too and if they start a big attack and the player doesn't pay any attention to it and fail to move out of the kill zone he will get hit. 

Reason that doesnt happen in lower lvls is because they got away with it with mobs that dont hit as hard so they kept doing the same thing at higher lvls - guess what...you get one shotted while in middle of your combat animation.

This is what it means by action combat - There is NO TAB Targetting. You have to be aware of your position , the boss' position and what the boss is doing as opposed to spamming your skills and movement keys.

No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies.  This is more a weak attempt at balancing certain issues and an attempt to make the game feel like it is based on strategy more than it really is.  IF you had played ALL the betas as extensively as I did you would know this.

The issues have nothing to do with failing to see mob tells or tab targetting.

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  Skeetz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/24/06
Posts: 24

3/11/13 6:00:36 PM#108
Originally posted by Asm0deus
No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

 Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

  Skeetz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/24/06
Posts: 24

3/11/13 6:12:07 PM#109

While I don't have much issue with having rooted combat I feel it could have been done better in games.

It would be great if midway thru the a casting or swing you can hit your dodge keys and that overides everything else and interrupts whatever you're doing. Maybe even have a threshold where once you've gone past that you're commited to the action and that can be tweaked and refinded.

I would have liked that more than a perma root with no  recourse.

Apparently I hear that you can do that in NWO ( interupt combat with dodge), but the animations are slow and clunky that it never felt instant.

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 919

3/11/13 7:06:01 PM#110
Originally posted by Skeetz
Originally posted by Asm0deus
No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

 Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

Just take any real action game, MMO or not going back to the 80's. I will not start quoting games at you if you can't see what I am saying.

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  Skeetz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/24/06
Posts: 24

3/11/13 8:08:19 PM#111
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Skeetz
Originally posted by Asm0deus
No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

 Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

Just take any real action game, MMO or not going back to the 80's. I will not start quoting games at you if you can't see what I am saying.

lol we're talking about rpg that use action combat not action games - that is an entirely different genre. No matter what an rpg is still and rpg , and action games are not rpg. There may borrow some elements from other genres like shooters that have weapon upgrades and lvl ups but noone is going to confuse CoD as an rpg. Likewise none is going to confuse NWO as an action game...except for you I guess.

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 919

3/11/13 8:58:33 PM#112
Originally posted by Skeetz
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Skeetz
Originally posted by Asm0deus
No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

 Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

Just take any real action game, MMO or not going back to the 80's. I will not start quoting games at you if you can't see what I am saying.

lol we're talking about rpg that use action combat not action games - that is an entirely different genre. No matter what an rpg is still and rpg , and action games are not rpg. There may borrow some elements from other genres like shooters that have weapon upgrades and lvl ups but noone is going to confuse CoD as an rpg. Likewise none is going to confuse NWO as an action game...except for you I guess.

I think rooting does not belong in  a "action" rpg or "action" mmo period. I am not interested in debating this with you, you have your opinioin and I have mine, I can respect anothers opinion even if I greatly disagree with it, even though you seem intent on "picking" a fight about it.

 

The more I post in forums the less I am inclined to "debate" things. Seems to me it is far more effective to state your opinion, ask question or clarifications if you desire and then move on.  When you start to debate things it just tends to turn into flame fests or thinly veiled insults.

Think I made my opinion pretty clear and I think I have understood yours as well.

 

Carry on.

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  Skeetz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/24/06
Posts: 24

3/11/13 10:05:37 PM#113

Alright we'll agree to disagree and I respect your opinion. I wasn't trying to 'pick a fight' but I apologize for my wording.

I won't debate this anymore too and there're numerous debates in other threads about this in this forum and elsewhere.

 

But I want to point out something about so called action combat or the term used. I think it's a poorly worded term probably coined by a company marketing their game when they wanted to seem different from the current status quo in MMORPGs.

 

It sure sounds better than 'console like combat' which is where these things started and eventually like most things on console they get assimilated into the PC platform. 

 

So instead of hit chance dice rolls, we get collision detection. Where something that used to be decided by a dice roll is replaced using collision detection. Rooting is just an unfortunate by product - a necessary evil if you may.  Basically I see root as the hit chance of the enemy's attacks landing on me. I can decrease that chance  by positioning and timing. So that's where the 'action' comes in.

 

Whereby on classic rpgs , I can improve my not getting hit (enemy's misses) by skill points and gear and they actually mean something in game.

 

Sure you may still see Defence as a stat to keep in line with what an rpg is supposed to be, but it's role is somewhat neutered or rejigged to something else. Like most 'action combat' rpgs, there's not a lot of emphasis placed on stats as compared to classic rpgs.  Which is kinda odd design choice for a DnD style game. The great thing about playing a DnD game is the theorycrafting and the stats make a difference.

 

Anyway that's my way of rationalizing it.

  Alber_gamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/08/12
Posts: 478

3/11/13 10:48:36 PM#114

I think the rooting does not only belong to action games, but also it's a necessary gameplay and tactical element. I normally lose respect pretty quickly for action games that allow you to just run around freely as you swing a two handed sword or cast a powerful spell, or just allow you to do a 180 direction change mid-jump. To me it's so absurd that it breaks the immersion and makes me think of outdated mechanics typical of the arcades in the 90's.

 

Even the most acclaimed ARPG saga of all time, Diablo, uses rooting not only when casting spells, also when doing melee attacks. Rooting in action games has always existed, and will always exist. It adds the important element of forcing you to make decissions such as skill timing or choose when you can afford to attack, or will have to settle for a more defensive approach. I value the feature, and I enjoy its existance. It's here to stay, and rightly so.

 

When I want to play mindless button mashers, I switch to console games.

My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/11/13 11:17:12 PM#115
Originally posted by Alber_gamer

I think the rooting does not only belong to action gamse, but also it's a necessary gameplay and tactical element. I normally lose respect pretty quickly for action games that allow you to just run around freely as you swing a two handed sword or cast a powerful spell, or just allow you to do a 180 direction change mid-jump. To me it's so absurd that it breaks the immersion and makes me think of outdated mechanics typical of the arcades in the 90's.

 

Even the most acclaimed ARPG saga of all time, Diablo, uses rooting not only when casting spells, also when doing melee attacks. Rooting in action games has always existed, and will always exist. It adds the important element of forcing you to make decissions such as skill timing or choose when you can afford to attack, or will have to settle for a more defensive approach. I value the feature, and I enjoy its existance. It's here to stay, and rightly so.

 

When I want to play mindless button mashers, I switch to console games.

i will agree rooting is probably not going anywhere and when done right i like it.. For example batman arkham games I felt had very fun and fluid combat even with the rooting.. but for whatever reason certain games and rooting feel very off for me.. diablo i couldn't stand the rooting but mostly because it's a point and click game to begin with. I think it's honestly the animations in this game as in games like vindictous I don't mind the rooting either. Just something about the ranged classes animations feels wrong and it turns me off to their combat.. 

but then again Tera had some very nice animations and the ranged classes rooting felt all wrong.. so i dunno has to be a combination of the animations and how the skills transition from one to the other that bothers me... but guess I'm just picky in that way... oh well melee it is for me I guess as I don't see this changing much...

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 919

3/11/13 11:33:54 PM#116
Originally posted by Skeetz

Alright we'll agree to disagree and I respect your opinion. I wasn't trying to 'pick a fight' but I apologize for my wording.

I won't debate this anymore too and there're numerous debates in other threads about this in this forum and elsewhere.

 

But I want to point out something about so called action combat or the term used. I think it's a poorly worded term probably coined by a company marketing their game when they wanted to seem different from the current status quo in MMORPGs.

 

It sure sounds better than 'console like combat' which is where these things started and eventually like most things on console they get assimilated into the PC platform. 

 

So instead of hit chance dice rolls, we get collision detection. Where something that used to be decided by a dice roll is replaced using collision detection. Rooting is just an unfortunate by product - a necessary evil if you may.  Basically I see root as the hit chance of the enemy's attacks landing on me. I can decrease that chance  by positioning and timing. So that's where the 'action' comes in.

 

Whereby on classic rpgs , I can improve my not getting hit (enemy's misses) by skill points and gear and they actually mean something in game.

 

Sure you may still see Defence as a stat to keep in line with what an rpg is supposed to be, but it's role is somewhat neutered or rejigged to something else. Like most 'action combat' rpgs, there's not a lot of emphasis placed on stats as compared to classic rpgs.  Which is kinda odd design choice for a DnD style game. The great thing about playing a DnD game is the theorycrafting and the stats make a difference.

 

Anyway that's my way of rationalizing it.

Cool I sometimes find it hard to see if someone is really just passionate about something or looking for trouble in forums, without a "tone of voice" sometimes the words just seem inadequate  :)

I understand better what you mean with this post and i guess you have a point, rooting just doesn't feel like action combat to me, though I will add I had no problem with it in Vindictus, a game I enjoyed quite a bit but found got old after awhile. 

 

In Neverwinter it just doesn't feel right to me, it doesn't feel smooth like in Vindictus, the stats don't seem to do much of much either.  Dunno maybe my problem is more with the engine Cryptic used and how they tweaked things.

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  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2820

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/11/13 11:49:50 PM#117
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Agrias34

I think the combat is fine how it is.  The only small term change I could see being implemented would be faster animation times which means less time standing still after using a skill etc. and balancing each individual skill differently so that you can move faster after using certain skills, meaning said certain skills are quicker to cast, and some skills that do larger amounts of damage or larger area of effects may root you for a longer duration than said other skills that are weaker or highly mobile.

For example, I played a cleric up to level 10, I typically don't like playing beta's too long because it ruins the fun for me when the game actually launches, but I could suggest that the basic left click ability which throws spears could have less animation time so that you can sort of throw a spear, take a small step back in between throws, and continue the chain of throwing the spears since the 3rd spear does more damage.  But some skills like my daily power that calls down the angel wings of light or whatnot, which does a lot of damage and also knocks down or stuns the enemy(something like that) should take longer to cast and hinder your movement capabilities more than just basic and smaller attacks.

I'm not suggesting to completey remove the rooting system for the weaker, more mobile skills, but just tweaking them slightly to improve upon their current system which is fine altogether.

i agree.. overall it's not the rooting that is the core issue for me it's how it looks/feels. It's really an animation and transition between animations issue.. as i have said in earlier posts in other games like dmc and other fast paced action games there is a very smooth animation transition between skills even if rooting is used it is hardly noticable at all.. some animation speed ups and tweaks would do wonders

Agreed even though I personally didn't have an issue with it but if it gets more players playing and make more people happy I am all for it.  As long as they don't remove the rooting entirely because then it becomes another kitefest of which I am not particularly fond of and is probably why I never play caster classes.  I agree with the guy you quoted speaking of Tera.  Other then the Art and Eastern influences (which I wont get into here) or the lackluster WoW'esque style questing the main issue I had was that the rooting in that game felt like an eternity and playign a melee toon in Tera was absolutely atrocious.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Monstre0auS

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/12
Posts: 46

3/12/13 7:41:08 AM#118
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Agrias34

I think the combat is fine how it is.  The only small term change I could see being implemented would be faster animation times which means less time standing still after using a skill etc. and balancing each individual skill differently so that you can move faster after using certain skills, meaning said certain skills are quicker to cast, and some skills that do larger amounts of damage or larger area of effects may root you for a longer duration than said other skills that are weaker or highly mobile.

For example, I played a cleric up to level 10, I typically don't like playing beta's too long because it ruins the fun for me when the game actually launches, but I could suggest that the basic left click ability which throws spears could have less animation time so that you can sort of throw a spear, take a small step back in between throws, and continue the chain of throwing the spears since the 3rd spear does more damage.  But some skills like my daily power that calls down the angel wings of light or whatnot, which does a lot of damage and also knocks down or stuns the enemy(something like that) should take longer to cast and hinder your movement capabilities more than just basic and smaller attacks.

I'm not suggesting to completey remove the rooting system for the weaker, more mobile skills, but just tweaking them slightly to improve upon their current system which is fine altogether.

i agree.. overall it's not the rooting that is the core issue for me it's how it looks/feels. It's really an animation and transition between animations issue.. as i have said in earlier posts in other games like dmc and other fast paced action games there is a very smooth animation transition between skills even if rooting is used it is hardly noticable at all.. some animation speed ups and tweaks would do wonders

Agreed even though I personally didn't have an issue with it but if it gets more players playing and make more people happy I am all for it.  As long as they don't remove the rooting entirely because then it becomes another kitefest of which I am not particularly fond of and is probably why I never play caster classes.  I agree with the guy you quoted speaking of Tera.  Other then the Art and Eastern influences (which I wont get into here) or the lackluster WoW'esque style questing the main issue I had was that the rooting in that game felt like an eternity and playign a melee toon in Tera was absolutely atrocious.

RED: And Azzamasin comes to the crux of this issue: will a little bit of tweakage get more people to play? There has been quite a few passionate posts, rationalizations and debates in this forum, one can only hope the devs are reading this as well and actually take time around the water cooler to tell one another, 'this is something that our current playerbase, and potential playerbase are saying is important, let's make sure we've given it enough work to ensure we're all happy with it'.

I think I just made $0.10?

  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

3/12/13 8:28:05 AM#119

this is only proof of the FPS players invading the mmorpg genre and slowly taking out the RPG aspect.

Ppl that dont have a effing clue about D&D.

In D&D in order to a mage cast a spell he needs to be concentrate  while making certain hand gestures and movements allied with words with perfection for the spell work. IT s NOT A FART OR A BURP its a SPELL with spetacular effects.

u adhd kids and ur twich combat, go play COD with retarded kids where u belong.

  Monstre0auS

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/12
Posts: 46

3/12/13 8:36:16 AM#120
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

this is only proof of the FPS players invading the mmorpg genre and slowly taking out the RPG aspect.

Ppl that dont have a effing clue about D&D.

In D&D in order to a mage cast a spell he needs to be concentrate  while making certain hand gestures and movements allied with words with perfection for the spell work. IT s NOT A FART OR A BURP its a SPELL with spetacular effects.

u adhd kids and ur twich combat, go play COD with retarded kids where u belong.

RED: I hate to argue with you, as I did in fact argue the same point earlier in thread (using magicians from fantasy novels as inspiration), but in 3ed and 3.5ed there were feats mages could take that allowed them to cast spells without gestures, sound, reagents or even removed cast times! - The one thing that rings true is that the magician had to be able to concentrate still, so this could barely be pulled off whilst on the run from a fireball, or if you were knocked out...

However, in the same edition, certain rituals and crafting attempts for example required several hours of concentration! Meaning that wizards who flapped a butt cheek to fart would ruin that attempt! So yes, there were exceptions to your rule, but ultimately in terms of storytelling, you are correct.

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