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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How to fix the Holy Trinity or at least make it work for all.

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46 posts found
  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  3/11/13 10:47:35 PM#1

While I have no allusions as to how I would replace the Holy Trinity when it comes to MMO's I do have a a very simple yet elegant fix to make it work better for all involved.

 

Not counting the issues with a trinity based system the main problem I have is the complete and total lack of necessary roles required to make a group work. i.e. Heals/Tank/DPS.  I think its safe to assume the majority of players want to play the DPS role and since this leaves a vacuum for the heals and tank roles we are often left with DPS'ers having to wait an inordinate amount of time to get groups or to actually wanted in groups.  This is evident in almost every MMO that offers a Dungeon Finder or LFG system.  The tanks and heals are always wanted and get relatively quick queues while the DPS spend vast amounts of time idle and waiting to play.  This is my main issue with the Trinity since I have never nor will I ever play anything other then a DPS and trying to force gamers to dp something they don't like is a surefire way to lower your population.

 

heres a tip for MMO developers:  Who's bright idea was it to have 5 party systems?  If you want to fix the trinity while keeping it in place, you MUST raise the group size.  My ideal size is 9 but anything higher then 6 mnay work but you need some good metrics to see.  If you open up the group size to say between 7-9 while keeping the 1 tank, 1 healer approach you open up 3-4 more slots to fill with the vastly inflated amounts of DPS'ers.  Keep the encounters tuned to only needing 1 tank and 1 healer and opening up more DPS slots and at least in theory the players shouls see more rounded queue times.

 

There you go, fixed!

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Tyvolus4

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 187

3/11/13 10:51:38 PM#2
Stop trying to fix what isn't broke !! 
  Lovely_Laly

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 736

game is also real

3/11/13 10:57:18 PM#3

well, I saw different system with GW1 (we got no real tanks and healers were NPC (hero) most of the time. Plus many people picked monk as 2nd profession so could offheal self and others.
I think it was good idea as healing is boring as role for most of us + when something fail most of the time people blame healer.

at Forsaken World you have no need for real tanks again (you have protector class but they are not request for most of parties), and game has 2 healers system with 6 ppl group: main healer and support.

at Runes of Magic with dual prof system many got healer 2nd skills and could help others.

I don't think we really need tank, which can, IMO, be replaced by 2 heavy metal DPS, warrior and such class.

As for healer I would rather prefer to get healer NPC and dual skill system or just offheal skills, than try to find a good healer.

try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  3/11/13 11:13:20 PM#4
Originally posted by Tyvolus4
Stop trying to fix what isn't broke !! 

Only a tank, healer or someone with dedicated friends/guildmates would say such a thing.  But I got news for you bub, not everyone plays those 2 roles and not everyone is as lucky to have dedicated friends or guildies to join you in groups at the drop of a hat.  It might shock you but alot people's only choice in the matter is to PUG and as such playing a DPS in that scenario flat out sucks.  So stop trying to keep a broken system broken.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  3/11/13 11:14:46 PM#5
Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

well, I saw different system with GW1 (we got no real tanks and healers were NPC (hero) most of the time. Plus many people picked monk as 2nd profession so could offheal self and others.
I think it was good idea as healing is boring as role for most of us + when something fail most of the time people blame healer.

at Forsaken World you have no need for real tanks again (you have protector class but they are not request for most of parties), and game has 2 healers system with 6 ppl group: main healer and support.

at Runes of Magic with dual prof system many got healer 2nd skills and could help others.

I don't think we really need tank, which can, IMO, be replaced by 2 heavy metal DPS, warrior and such class.

As for healer I would rather prefer to get healer NPC and dual skill system or just offheal skills, than try to find a good healer.

 

Then that isn't a true trinity system as its the same thing GW2 does.  I don't mind it but it would appear alot of people do not like the fact there is no dedicated roles.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

3/11/13 11:26:52 PM#6
Originally posted by azzamasin

While I have no allusions as to how I would replace the Holy Trinity when it comes to MMO's I do have a a very simple yet elegant fix to make it work better for all involved.

 

Not counting the issues with a trinity based system the main problem I have is the complete and total lack of necessary roles required to make a group work. i.e. Heals/Tank/DPS.  I think its safe to assume the majority of players want to play the DPS role and since this leaves a vacuum for the heals and tank roles we are often left with DPS'ers having to wait an inordinate amount of time to get groups or to actually wanted in groups.  This is evident in almost every MMO that offers a Dungeon Finder or LFG system.  The tanks and heals are always wanted and get relatively quick queues while the DPS spend vast amounts of time idle and waiting to play.  This is my main issue with the Trinity since I have never nor will I ever play anything other then a DPS and trying to force gamers to dp something they don't like is a surefire way to lower your population.

 

heres a tip for MMO developers:  Who's bright idea was it to have 5 party systems?  If you want to fix the trinity while keeping it in place, you MUST raise the group size.  My ideal size is 9 but anything higher then 6 mnay work but you need some good metrics to see.  If you open up the group size to say between 7-9 while keeping the 1 tank, 1 healer approach you open up 3-4 more slots to fill with the vastly inflated amounts of DPS'ers.  Keep the encounters tuned to only needing 1 tank and 1 healer and opening up more DPS slots and at least in theory the players shouls see more rounded queue times.

There you go, fixed!

"Your car is fixed."

"Great, no more oil leaks."

"Oh, we didn't touch the oil, we just inflated the tires.  YW."

  Lovely_Laly

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 736

game is also real

3/11/13 11:35:27 PM#7

I mean why not give up this system once for all and find something else to replace 3 roles?

try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  h0urg1ass

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/29/05
Posts: 308

3/11/13 11:36:23 PM#8

I've said this before and I'll say it again.  There's nothing wrong with the trinity system.  There doesn't need to be this massive revolution in gameplay that some people think there does.

What there needs to be is more options.  There need to be some games that are trinity based and some that aren't.  The problem isn't the trinity, cause when it works, it works very well.  What there needs to be are some options for people who don't gravitate towards that playstyle.

My opinion is that since we've based most of the trinity games off of the D&D system of doing things, we need to use the same method for games that aren't trinity; namely looking at other pen and paper systems that have worked without a trinity system for years.

GURPS for example is one of the best pen and paper, skill based instead of trinity based, systems that is out there.  Game developers don't need to reinvent the wheel, they just need to go back to the roots of RPG's and find other systems that also work, that aren't based off of D&D.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6179

3/12/13 12:38:47 AM#9

  ThomasN7

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6672

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

3/12/13 12:42:17 AM#10
Originally posted by Tyvolus4
Stop trying to fix what isn't broke !! 

Totally agree. It is far from broken. Working as intended! :D

  NaMeNaMe

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/09
Posts: 91

3/12/13 1:04:28 AM#11

It's not broken. 

 

/end thread

"if u forcefully insert foriegn objects into my? body, i will die"

  Kinchyle

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/10
Posts: 286

3/12/13 1:08:31 AM#12
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe

It's not broken. 

 

/end thread

Not only is it not broken...it's not needed. To me, it's the training wheel on the MMO bicycle. Let us give you a cookie cutter set of classes so you don't have to think of how to make your chacter worth anything.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13669

3/12/13 1:31:37 AM#13
Originally posted by azzamasin

heres a tip for MMO developers:  Who's bright idea was it to have 5 party systems?  If you want to fix the trinity while keeping it in place, you MUST raise the group size.  My ideal size is 9 but anything higher then 6 mnay work but you need some good metrics to see.  If you open up the group size to say between 7-9 while keeping the 1 tank, 1 healer approach you open up 3-4 more slots to fill with the vastly inflated amounts of DPS'ers.  Keep the encounters tuned to only needing 1 tank and 1 healer and opening up more DPS slots and at least in theory the players shouls see more rounded queue times.

What makes you think that a group of nine wouldn't expect two tanks and two healers?  Doubling a group's heailng capability in exchange for losing only 10% or so of its damage would usually make a group much stronger.

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  3/12/13 1:44:23 AM#14
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by azzamasin

heres a tip for MMO developers:  Who's bright idea was it to have 5 party systems?  If you want to fix the trinity while keeping it in place, you MUST raise the group size.  My ideal size is 9 but anything higher then 6 mnay work but you need some good metrics to see.  If you open up the group size to say between 7-9 while keeping the 1 tank, 1 healer approach you open up 3-4 more slots to fill with the vastly inflated amounts of DPS'ers.  Keep the encounters tuned to only needing 1 tank and 1 healer and opening up more DPS slots and at least in theory the players shouls see more rounded queue times.

What makes you think that a group of nine wouldn't expect two tanks and two healers?  Doubling a group's heailng capability in exchange for losing only 10% or so of its damage would usually make a group much stronger.

Easy as adding a trigger to the LFG structure. 

 

Whats not to stop a game like WoW from having 2 tanks and 2 heals and 1 dps for each dungeon run?  Becasue its not needed and it hurts the group compostion and the LFG queue doesnt palce 2 tanks or 2 heals in the same 5 man group.  Come on dont be so oblivious.  Code it and they will come.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  3/12/13 1:46:39 AM#15
Originally posted by MMOExposed
http://www.mmorpgguys.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5160056#5160056

Agreed MMOexposed, and I normally don't agree with anything you ever post lol. 

 

The main reason why people hate the trinity is because there is a shortage of necessary roles to be fullfilled, up the group count and fill those roles with more popular roles and voila all players are happier.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  3/12/13 1:49:00 AM#16
Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

I mean why not give up this system once for all and find something else to replace 3 roles?

 

I've pondered for years on how best to do this but I can't come up with a plausible alternative so I dare you to try and don't say GW2 because even though  Ilove the game, the grouping leaves much to be desired.  Not adding a LFG tool was a huge msitake on Anet's part and it is the sole reason why I quit TSW and will msot likely quit GW2 once Neverwinter releases.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Aren_D

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 92

3/12/13 1:49:29 AM#17

As people already said trinity is not broken. Problem is dungeons / raids systems. All dungeon/raid content should scale to amount of people in the party/raid participating. So say 3-8 people grouped considered a party and 11-40+ raid. This way you don't have to worry about grouping if you say have 6 close friends you play with or small guild of 12-18 people. At same time large guilds less depended on raw numbers in raids, creates more flexibility and more raid composition options.

"Don't argue with dick-heads, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience"

  drebian

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/08
Posts: 28

3/12/13 2:00:20 AM#18

My suggestion is to offer more diverse classes.

Meaning, stop having classes that are solely tank/dps/heals. A few games have tried this (Vanguard Saga of Heroes is the first to come to mind). To list off a few of their hybrid classes:

Dread Knight (Tank/DPS)

Paladin (Tank/Off-heals)

Shaman (Heals/DPS)

Monk (DPS/Off-tank)

Disciple (DPS/Off-heals/Off-tank)

 

I think that they had the right idea, but implemented it poorly (not even going to discuss the horrid launch)...

With hybrid classes (not GW2 style) it would allow those people to play multiple roles as they felt like. While I personally like tanking in a lot of MMO's, I occasionally get fed up with it and just want to dps, which most MMO's don't support...

Just a thought. Feel free to rip it to shreds like this community does with every idea...

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

3/12/13 2:16:20 AM#19
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

I mean why not give up this system once for all and find something else to replace 3 roles?

 

I've pondered for years on how best to do this but I can't come up with a plausible alternative so I dare you to try and don't say GW2 because even though  Ilove the game, the grouping leaves much to be desired.  Not adding a LFG tool was a huge msitake on Anet's part and it is the sole reason why I quit TSW and will msot likely quit GW2 once Neverwinter releases.

I know you just said "don't say GW2," but I do honestly think it just needs a bit of refinement; a little tweaking to make synergies and coordinations more worthwhile.  Still, I'll set it aside for now anyway.  Won't mention UO either, as it's the classic "tankmage does everything" scenario.

If you go out of fantasy settings, there's also Eve.  I mean yeah, you can *technically* cram some concept of a trinity into it if you try hard enough, but it's both an obvious cram-job and it's not exactly the "holy trinity."  If the idea could be adapted into a fantasy setting, I'd be all over it. 

TSW, I haven't tried yet so no comment.

  Quizzical

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3/12/13 2:29:56 AM#20
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by azzamasin

heres a tip for MMO developers:  Who's bright idea was it to have 5 party systems?  If you want to fix the trinity while keeping it in place, you MUST raise the group size.  My ideal size is 9 but anything higher then 6 mnay work but you need some good metrics to see.  If you open up the group size to say between 7-9 while keeping the 1 tank, 1 healer approach you open up 3-4 more slots to fill with the vastly inflated amounts of DPS'ers.  Keep the encounters tuned to only needing 1 tank and 1 healer and opening up more DPS slots and at least in theory the players shouls see more rounded queue times.

What makes you think that a group of nine wouldn't expect two tanks and two healers?  Doubling a group's heailng capability in exchange for losing only 10% or so of its damage would usually make a group much stronger.

Easy as adding a trigger to the LFG structure. 

 

Whats not to stop a game like WoW from having 2 tanks and 2 heals and 1 dps for each dungeon run?  Becasue its not needed and it hurts the group compostion and the LFG queue doesnt palce 2 tanks or 2 heals in the same 5 man group.  Come on dont be so oblivious.  Code it and they will come.

In other words, by making it so that the automated matchmaking system will never create useful groups?  That would just mean that no one uses the automated matchmaking system--like how it was in WoW when the automated groups released.

How do you code a game to make it so that 7 damage dealers and 1 healer is just as good as 6 damage dealers and 2 healers?  It may be possible, but you'd have to move far away from standard conventions.  Making all healers in a group share the same mana pool rather than each having their own might do it, but that's rather artificial.

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