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General Discussion  » PVP in MMO's today, where did it all go wrong?

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47 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

3/11/13 9:59:20 PM#21
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by rodingo
In my opinion, the pvp goes to crap real fast when the devs start adding a PVP stat like "resilience"or "expertise" .  lmao I still get a kick when I see the name that EA chose for their pvp stat.  There is nothing wrong with allowing for gear progression in a PVP game, but when the top tier PVP gear makes any attempt against someone wearing it futile unless you also have teh top tier gear as well due to a special stat, then it just discourages a lot of players from wanting to pvp.  Thus putting a slow strangling hold on the game's PVP community.  SWTOR is a fine example of that. 

yeah that sucks too.

but its a by product of the "raiders must have the best toys" approach made popular by eq and wow.

your wow clone games get in this endless destructive cycle

1 release new raid

2 raid must have wtfpwn gear to push people into grinding the hell out of it

3 raiders start owning dedicated pvpers

4 pvpers whine

5 new pvp set comes out

6 pvp decends into a baby eating competition, where fresh max level players must grind months of constant deaths before they can compete.

 

Yeh exactly.  It's just an on going cycle.  Any game that has those stats I just stop playing which is too bad.  I really do like PVP in WoW and SWTOR but I refuse becuase they are both centered around raid PVE and the tiers of gear that go with it.  I also refuse to raid becuase I would rather go up against living players than A.I. any day.

play PS2 - its free, get a good outfit though, you need an outfit to have fun.

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1837

3/11/13 10:25:12 PM#22
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by rodingo
In my opinion, the pvp goes to crap real fast when the devs start adding a PVP stat like "resilience"or "expertise" .  lmao I still get a kick when I see the name that EA chose for their pvp stat.  There is nothing wrong with allowing for gear progression in a PVP game, but when the top tier PVP gear makes any attempt against someone wearing it futile unless you also have teh top tier gear as well due to a special stat, then it just discourages a lot of players from wanting to pvp.  Thus putting a slow strangling hold on the game's PVP community.  SWTOR is a fine example of that. 

yeah that sucks too.

but its a by product of the "raiders must have the best toys" approach made popular by eq and wow.

your wow clone games get in this endless destructive cycle

1 release new raid

2 raid must have wtfpwn gear to push people into grinding the hell out of it

3 raiders start owning dedicated pvpers

4 pvpers whine

5 new pvp set comes out

6 pvp decends into a baby eating competition, where fresh max level players must grind months of constant deaths before they can compete.

 

Yeh exactly.  It's just an on going cycle.  Any game that has those stats I just stop playing which is too bad.  I really do like PVP in WoW and SWTOR but I refuse becuase they are both centered around raid PVE and the tiers of gear that go with it.  I also refuse to raid becuase I would rather go up against living players than A.I. any day.

play PS2 - its free, get a good outfit though, you need an outfit to have fun.

Yeh I need to go back to that game.  I played a whole bunch when it launched but got burned out.  I actually have more hours on PS1  than probably all of the other mmo's I have played since 2001 combined.  I never played DAOC, but PS1 is my measuring stick on good massive three-way faction warfare.  PS2 comes close and I need to load it up again, but PS1 will always have that special place in my heart   *tear*

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  doragon86

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/09
Posts: 590

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

3/11/13 10:32:49 PM#23
Originally posted by BitterClinger

I did some PvP in UO, it was pretty much crap.

UO PvP was crap? You must've not been proficient at it. It required an understanding of swing and casting delays to be good at it. However, once you got the hang of it, it was quite fun. I had good times as a PK in that game. 

 

Anyways, one of the problems is that I've yet to see developers design the game with the PvP in mind first, then shape PvE content around it. In other words, they focus on PvE first, and then when they start tackling PvP they run into issues with class balance and what not. 

Another problem I found is that addition of a PvP and a PvE stat, i.e. resilience, hit rating, and the like. Before, you could obtain gear either through PvP or PvE. The gear was interchangeable, just different methods of obtaining it. However, I'm guessing because they wanted to increase time spent farming out gear, they forcibly drew a clear line between PvE and PvP gear. For example PvE gear having hit rating, and PvP gear lacking it. Or PvP gear having resilience and PvE gear lacking it. There was also the issue that raiders generally had better gear compared to the PvP sets. 

Honestly, I think if developers worried about class balance from a PvP perspective first then shaped PvE content around it, got rid of the line between PvP and PvE gear, and then put the gear on equal grounding, things would be in better shape. 

"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
~Lord George Gordon Byron

  pmw4friend

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/13
Posts: 62

even though all the adds might be against you, giving up is not an option.

3/11/13 11:02:32 PM#24
It all went wrong right when the economy started going down and companies started loosing money
  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4766

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

3/11/13 11:07:51 PM#25
Originally posted by pmw4friend
It all went wrong right when the economy started going down and companies started loosing money

a great thesis statement. looking forward to the paper.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/11/13 11:10:56 PM#26
Originally posted by falcuk

Would like to hear peoples thoughts on why PVP has never really evolved in MMO's since DAOC set the bar so high, none have really come close and definitely nothing has bettered it.

 Because it didnt set the bar so high, it set it LOW.

PvP in DaoC was the first game to provide carrot on a stick PvP. It placed it in a nice safe little area away from everything else which led directly to battlemaps in other games. The buffs and rewards provided in DaoC led to the ladder/ranking systems in games today and since DaoC was gear based, it created the PvE for PvP gear crap we have today. It also created the zerg fest we have today as well along with the take the easy road mentality of taking an objective and then leaving it for the next without defending...just take take take for quick gain, gain made meaningless outside of the cheap carrot rewards they brought.

DaoC was the cause of todays problems because before DaoC, people PvPed for fun and the challenge. And no, I dont expect you to get it because if you think DaoC had great PvP, you had no real PvP experience before it. Freaking themepark PvP...gawd damn.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2820

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/11/13 11:17:02 PM#27
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by azzamasin
Another failure you can chalk up to WoW.  Instanced Battleground PvP and Arena's are the courge of MMO PvP IMO.  Open world PvP isn't much better to be honest.  The best PvP comes in the form of factional warfare in predetermined areas which offer resources and other forms of incentives to fight over such as sieges or PvE dungeons.  Strictly speaking, segregating the PvE and PvP is the best.

you have to differentiate between open world in a sand box and open world in a themepark.

theres a world of difference between EVE where economy and politics drives pvp and WOW flip a switch and PVP magically happens servers.

With a sandbox theres the whole metagame of building contacts, only equiping what you can afford to loose for your current enterprise, although conversly the consequences for failure might be soo much its worth equiping a very expensive ship (e.g. you loose a rich manufacturing area for your corp)

The daoc / planetside style approach is the best way to do pvp in a themepark game though, hands down.

Exactly.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2820

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/11/13 11:20:05 PM#28
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by falcuk

Would like to hear peoples thoughts on why PVP has never really evolved in MMO's since DAOC set the bar so high, none have really come close and definitely nothing has bettered it.

 Because it didnt set the bar so high, it set it LOW.

PvP in DaoC was the first game to provide carrot on a stick PvP. It placed it in a nice safe little area away from everything else which led directly to battlemaps in other games. The buffs and rewards provided in DaoC led to the ladder/ranking systems in games today and since DaoC was gear based, it created the PvE for PvP gear crap we have today. It also created the zerg fest we have today as well along with the take the easy road mentality of taking an objective and then leaving it for the next without defending...just take take take for quick gain, gain made meaningless outside of the cheap carrot rewards they brought.

DaoC was the cause of todays problems because before DaoC, people PvPed for fun and the challenge. And no, I dont expect you to get it because if you think DaoC had great PvP, you had no real PvP experience before it. Freaking themepark PvP...gawd damn.

Played Asheron's Call from release in Nov 1999 till DAoC released in 2002 (and on and off over the years) but In my opinion DAoC style PvP is a helluva lot more fun, rewarding and feasible then the open world gankfests that games prior to DAoC featured.  Theres a reason why games which featured Open World PvP have consistently failed (barring EVE) and thsoe that featured consentual PvP continue to dominate.

 

AC had 9 PvE white server and only 1 red PvP server.

UO didnt grow population until Trammel came along.

DAoC flirted with full open world PvP servers and 1 of those servers shut down within a year and the other was a ghosttown 6 months after it opened.

WoW's PvE servers always outhumbered PvP servers by a 2-1 margin.

 

I could go on and on but alas I won't because you probably still don't understand.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/11/13 11:39:37 PM#29
Originally posted by azzamasin

Played Asheron's Call from release in Nov 1999 till DAoC released in 2002 (and on and off over the years) but In my opinion DAoC style PvP is a helluva lot more fun, rewarding and feasible then the open world gankfests that games prior to DAoC featured.  Theres a reason why games which featured Open World PvP have consistently failed (barring EVE) and thsoe that featured consentual PvP continue to dominate.

 

AC had 9 PvE white server and only 1 red PvP server.

UO didnt grow population until Trammel came along.

DAoC flirted with full open world PvP servers and 1 of those servers shut down within a year and the other was a ghosttown 6 months after it opened.

WoW's PvE servers always outhumbered PvP servers by a 2-1 margin.

 

I could go on and on but alas I won't because you probably still don't understand.

 Congrats, you had to fall onto a red herring to defend DaoC, proof you have no ground to stand on.

Sorry, but if you feel you must act like the only PvP options are FFA open world and hand holding themepark carebear PvP, its just more proof why the genre is what it is...games today are made for YOU...yet even YOU are complaining about it.

AC had 9 PvE servers that you could flag on and partake in when YOU wanted to PvP and not one single battle in that crapfest that was DaoC could match the skill level of PvP in AC1. Guess thats why Hybernia protested in MASS for the imbalance and being ignored.

UO may not have grown until Trammel came along but it still had MORE PLAYERS THAN DAOC EVEN BEFORE TRAMMEL!

WoW, WoW is DaoC on roids, crap PvP carrot on a stick designed for people that need something shiney to do something...which, BTW...even had PvP going on the PvE servers.

You could go on, but you still havent said a thing to defend the crapfest that was DaoC, a game that wasnt even the fourth most popular MMO of its time...EQ1, UO, SWG...and Lineage all had more players...and how many games after DaoC chose to go the "lets place 3 factions at war in closed off areas and have them fight over neverland" route? Oh yeah...all around crap.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

3/11/13 11:59:09 PM#30
Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

Many reasons imho.

1 - WoW. That game was the 1st big hit in the 21st century, mmorpgwise. Since then, basically all the big companies have tried to make something similar. so if you try to copy....(excuse me for the WoW fans) crap, most likely crap is what you'll end up with offering

2- DAoC was ahead of its time PvPwise, i'm pretty sure that if DAoC came out basically at same time as WoW, it would have had bigger success than it did ( not saying it woulda have sold more than WoW, but woulda been more popular) (and lets keep NF out of the subject, witch was a reason that it started going wrong)

3 - There's more PvEers out there than there's PvPers. so companies tend to aim for the mass. DAoC was a Niche game in a way, so will be CU, but the people that will give more love to PvP oriented games will be more truthful to their favorite game for a long long time, its simply not the same type of players.

4 - games have been following the same kind of "pattern" as the movie industry. lots of special effect, visually awesome, but lots of them lack a good story. For this part, i think we're slowly getting out of that pattern. Seeing the hype on games like CU, Shourds of the avatar (basically the next new UO) and ESO, and some other games made by smaller studios as well, my hopes are finally getting up again.

5 - its a generation thing, and this generation of teenagers is mostly (NOT ALL OF THEM, really no discrimination here) a generation that wants everything fast, with as less "work for it" as possible. once again, WoW got that, with basically a trail of crumbs that guide from the "YOU ARE HERE" to the "TREASURE IS HERE"

And finally

6 - Big studios. They aim for the money, pure and simple, so, they offer lots of "bling bling", nice visual effects, makes their game quite easy for the mass that wants easy games, leaving the more ..."serious" or "mature" players behind.

And luckily for us, some people like MJ are "serious" gamers too, so they ll do their very damn best to make a game for those of us seeking somethnig more than icing on a cake.

 

+1 

I was going to reply with just, "World of Warcraft" but you actually typed out a reason too.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

3/12/13 12:02:17 AM#31

  The largest problem with PvP is the player.  We just don't agree on what makes it good.  Some people swear by EVE and its PvP.  Others still herald DaoC as the best.  People yet still swear that UO was the best.  The numbers outright show that WoW is the most popular PvP created in MMO space.  I think that, in WoW's special case, that has more to do with the variety of player and PvP styles it caters to.  Thats the big thing, we all disagree on what PvP is most fun.  Even in a genre dedicated to it, FPS, we cannot agree.  I hate most objective matches, but love TDM and Hardcore.  But, obviously, there are enough people who do like things like Kill Confirmed because its still present.

  For MMO gaming, I like my PvP mostly slower paced.  I like for what I'm doing to matter more than my reaction speed.  I also like interactions on my terms more than I like PvP "battlegrounds" any day.  Random awesome PvP moment is always more fun to me, especially if it held meaning.  Like a guy that killed my while I was harvesting ore, and I come back to take revenge.  It also makes those moments where you save an enemy matter more too.  Its something I wish more MMO's would embrace.  Yes i can kill the other faction, but let me heal em too.  Let me forge those bonds in the field, or break them.  It makes the PvP a choice, and choice always feel better.

  Wolvan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/04
Posts: 50

3/12/13 6:05:37 AM#32

I think alot of the problem is people use PvP as a catch all term when it can mean very different things.

 

To me, 'pure' PvP you can kill anyone, anywhere (mostly).  IMO, not very fun.  It becomes gank fests where you have to join a large guild to survive or be crushed by everyone.  You are forced to sometimes team or submit, not to win; but to survive.  The kiddies who play the most and can act out how ever they want with no real concequences try to ruin the experience for everybody else for their personal pleasure.

 

DAOC introduced RvR...call it PvP lite or what ever.  It was forced TEAM based PvP with limitations.  IMO, this was the most fun because it forced you to work together in a community (ie what we have been missing!) withen a set of boundries/rules to win.  It is a team based sport.  Winning as part of a team is much more fulfilling.  Knowing you had to get so many different people from different places all faced the same direction and moving together built that community people want...and winning cemented it together.

 

WOW pvp (and many games since) all feature variations on PvP-lite, but NOT the team based RvR.  While I often enjoyed the open world pvp in WoW, the battlegrounds, arena's and other such events quickly sucked the fun right out of the game.  It became all about the grind for the next level of gear...because gear > all.

 

For DAOC, ToA messed up the gear progression.  Pre-toa the best gear was crafted 100% masterwork, though generally most people ran 99% due to the time/cost of 100.   You MIGHT have a few drop pieces (jewerly) but all your armor and weapons generally where crafted.  Maybe a drop from dragon or raid etc.  ToA added a whole new level of gear that you had to participate in or you lost.  But even after completing ToA (I was full suit, ML10) half of my armor and weapons where crafted, not dropped. 

 

For CU, their needs to be a hard gear cap.  That is obtainable, with effort but not stupid amounts.  Crafted gear would be the best.  Then, as a newly minted character with a good base set of gear you are competative.  Sure, you don't have all the neat tricks, toys and abilitites that an experienced character does, but your not instant dead due to them having twice your hitpoints and half the cast time on spells, all due to gear progression.  A group of newly minted characters in good crafted gear should be a force to be reconed with, not a speed bump.

 

And their need to be concequences for LOSING in PvP (RvR).  A wait, a long run back, losing a keep or relic.  Something.   In WoW etc, people stopped caring about trying because their was no concequence for failure.

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

3/12/13 6:30:54 AM#33
Originally posted by Gishgeron

  The largest problem with PvP is the player.  We just don't agree on what makes it good.

That's as much a 'problem' as people liking different ice cream flavors. The problem isn't in having different tastes, but in the arrogant stance that styles other than the one they prefer are wrong, bad, or fail, rather than accepting something isn't made for them and moving on to something that is.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  falcuk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/12
Posts: 41

 
OP  3/12/13 6:45:46 AM#34
i ignored him long time, hes a moron. I agree with alot thats been said in this thread, cant wait for CU to come and bring a new era of RVR!
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/12/13 6:52:14 AM#35
Originally posted by Gishgeron

  The largest problem with PvP is the player.  We just don't agree on what makes it good.

Replace "PvP" in that statement with "MMOs", and you have the beginnings of a justification for this website.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1134

3/12/13 6:56:12 AM#36

It's not about appealing to FPS players. I was pretty much exclusively an FPS player before DAOC and DAOC's RvR sucked me in and I for the most part haven't played FPS games since 2001.

If anything, it's the reverse problem. Companies try too hard to make their PvP/RvR systems appeal to players who don't really enjoy fighting (and especially losing to) other players. That's how you get games like WAR or GW 2 and probably TESO where the focus is on fighting keep gates and there's minimal or no progression or the only progression is gear.

Taking empty keeps and earning shiny armor is what makes PvP appeal to non-PvPers but as we've all seen it also makes PvP suck.

Camelot Unchained Backer
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  TheHavok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/04
Posts: 2432

"Free crack and everybody gets laid."

3/12/13 7:03:48 AM#37

This is turning into a 'My Dad is better than your Dad' sort of thread, except substitute Dad for MMO.

But anyways, here's my quick take on things: The diehard DAoC fanboys loved the structure of DAoC.  They think its the best.  But of course they think its the best because they were playing it.  If they didn't think its the best, they wouldn't be playing it.

Likewise, a person playing WoW arena and getting rank 1 season after season will say that WoW arena is the best.  Additionally, an EVE player that has been a part of hundreds of battles with other Corps will say that EVE's pvp is the best.

So simply saying your game is the best isn't really going to verify that claim.  I think there should be other factors to look at, like how popular the game was, how long did it maintain its subs, how happy were the players with the devs, ect.

 

  TheHavok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/04
Posts: 2432

"Free crack and everybody gets laid."

3/12/13 7:07:15 AM#38

Just realized - its like an argument between sports fans:

One guy says hockey is the best sport.  Another guy says basketball is the best sport (but only college basketball!) and other guy says soccer (football) is the best sport.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

3/12/13 7:58:20 AM#39
No its like arguing with a guy that says basketball sucks because they use bats.
  Teh_Axi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

3/12/13 8:10:47 AM#40

Nobody really loses anymore, almost impossible to make misakes, don't really have to think much about character building if at all, everything is instant gratifcation, you can do most things without ever talking to other players, theres rarely any place for new players because "pvp" just grinding stronger gear . . .

I'm just gonna stop I could keep going all day.

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