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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » If you don't like the holy trinity, come up with something better.

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190 posts found
  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

3/11/13 3:06:54 PM#161
Originally posted by mehoron

Getting back to the OP. I think that the "holy trinity" isn't really too much of a problem. It's been around and has been designed to hell and back. To say that you don't like it, is just saying you don't like grouping.

I don't see how that follows.  All it says to me is that the person saying it doesn't like one specific variety of grouping.

And I'll sort of agree, the 'holy trinity' isn't objectively terrible or anything.  I don't like it myself, but I recognize there are plenty who do; and I don't have a problem with the idea that games exist which use a system I don't like.

Many others in this debate do seem have a problem with that idea, though - on both sides of it.  Like they believe every single game made should be made for their tastes, and anyone even asking for something else is imposing on them.
  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2628

3/11/13 3:25:46 PM#162
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by mehoron

Getting back to the OP. I think that the "holy trinity" isn't really too much of a problem. It's been around and has been designed to hell and back. To say that you don't like it, is just saying you don't like grouping.

I don't see how that follows.  All it says to me is that the person saying it doesn't like one specific variety of grouping.

And I'll sort of agree, the 'holy trinity' isn't objectively terrible or anything.  I don't like it myself, but I recognize there are plenty who do; and I don't have a problem with the idea that games exist which use a system I don't like.

Many others in this debate do seem have a problem with that idea, though - on both sides of it.  Like they believe every single game made should be made for their tastes, and anyone even asking for something else is imposing on them.

I can clearly see why people would enjoy the "no trinity" system especially people who normally play DPS classes in other MMOs. There are no downsides to people who enjoy DPS to the no trinity system. What I find interesting is that before GW2 hyped the whole no trinity system, I don't remember seeing people complaining about it (at all?). But since GW2 said that no trinity is the future, now suddenly sooo many people see the alleged "holy trinity" as some sort of plague :D To be honest, I can't remember if ArenaNet weren't the one to popularise the term "holy trinity". Sure it was used in EQ to mean cleric, warrior and whatever their emblematic dps class was but I don't think I have ever heard this term in WoW or any other MMO.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  nottuned

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 93

3/11/13 3:47:59 PM#163

I remeber there being more such as CC, Puller, Tank, Healer, Support, Dps.

Holy trinity is the basic dumbing down of grouping now the next step is to remove that. Everyone should have every ability also everyone should have a gun and the game should be played in first person remove all levels and add instant spawn. The future of mmo's

  Nihilist

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 555

3/11/13 5:01:02 PM#164
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Nihilist

 

The problem with GW2 is that it is far to easy for people to keep themselves healed up, and downstate rezzing makes it very easy to recover from mistakes. Classes do not matter as a result.

 

 

When you say "classes do not matter" .. you mean players can choose whatever gamestyle suits them instead of forced by the game to slot into one or the other role?

The problem you mentioned (too easy for people to heal up) is not a issue of roles, but if the combat challenge is tuned to the right level.

 

The cost of being able to play anything is that nobody really brings anything special or essential to the party which can result in a shallow play experience. The dungeon difficulty has to be scaled down in order to allow an open party composition.

 

That is why I am saying keep the party roles, but allow people to easily switch betwen them. That way the player is still brining essential things to a party, but not stuck around waiting for a specific class.

 

  Dogblaster

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

3/11/13 5:17:14 PM#165
Originally posted by endgame1

Your OP strongly intimates it.

You're asking for something better, when there was something better 30+ years ago.

Internet or mmorpgs didnt even exist 30 years ago.

way to go man.

 

Holy trinity <3

  User Deleted
3/11/13 6:35:15 PM#166
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Nihilist

 

The problem with GW2 is that it is far to easy for people to keep themselves healed up, and downstate rezzing makes it very easy to recover from mistakes. Classes do not matter as a result.

 

 

When you say "classes do not matter" .. you mean players can choose whatever gamestyle suits them instead of forced by the game to slot into one or the other role?

The problem you mentioned (too easy for people to heal up) is not a issue of roles, but if the combat challenge is tuned to the right level.

For me, GW2 prevents me from playing the gamestyle I want.  It's great if you like to DPS, but not so much if you actually enjoy tanking and healing.

  Vynt

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/04
Posts: 596

3/11/13 7:02:11 PM#167
Originally posted by nottuned

I remeber there being more such as CC, Puller, Tank, Healer, Support, Dps.

Holy trinity is the basic dumbing down of grouping now the next step is to remove that. Everyone should have every ability also everyone should have a gun and the game should be played in first person remove all levels and add instant spawn. The future of mmo's

I've said this before. EQ, daoc, there were 4 or 5 roles, then it gets simplified and we have 3, the trinity, then a step further with 2 roles where people can heal themselves or use pots or no tanks etc. 

Next will be everyone can do everything at the same time. No real reason to group, but if people so, they just smash buttons as fast as they can to do the same thing. Maybe they won't even have to heal themselves, it will just be an automatic heal that goes off every 3 seconds or a constant regen.

MMOs are becoming too simplified, making them boring. It is no wonder people don't stay in a game long anymore.

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

3/11/13 8:10:54 PM#168
Originally posted by Nihilist
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Nihilist

 

The problem with GW2 is that it is far to easy for people to keep themselves healed up, and downstate rezzing makes it very easy to recover from mistakes. Classes do not matter as a result.

 

 

When you say "classes do not matter" .. you mean players can choose whatever gamestyle suits them instead of forced by the game to slot into one or the other role?

The problem you mentioned (too easy for people to heal up) is not a issue of roles, but if the combat challenge is tuned to the right level.

 

The cost of being able to play anything is that nobody really brings anything special or essential to the party

Oh please.  Like Tank45 is anything special compared to Tank62.  The only thing 'special' about him is that there's fewer of them, but with a large enough server population and an LFG system even that's been trivialized.

And don't fool yourself by blaming the LFG system here;  I'm not fond of it myself, but it's past that point now.  If a dev doesn't put it in game, the players will just cobble up a third-party substitute.

What's 'special' is the player behind the toon.  Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes it's the other kind of 'special,' but either way that's the only thing anyone brings to the party that can't be found elsewhere.

which can result in a shallow play experience. The dungeon difficulty has to be scaled down in order to allow an open party composition.

Trinity itself isn't all that deep either.  Tank takes hits, Healer heals, DPS spams damage (and pretends throttling himself to avoid taking aggro off tank is 'depth.')  You know what your job is before you even sign up, and unless the dungeon/raid is bleeding-edge new content you've probably memorized the quirks thrown in to 'shake things up' already as well.

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 295

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

3/11/13 9:03:06 PM#169

I see a lot of mention of guild wars 2, but in all honesty, guild wars the original departed from the trinity, and showcased several types of damage mitigation for every class in the game. Their one big shortcoming was loading the majority of the team support on the healing class, even the alternate healing class was insufficient. But it certainly alleviated the use of taunt mechanics.

That's pretty much the solution in a nut shell, every class needs an effective offensive and defensive role, they do not need to be the same, they do not need to be dependant on teamwork either. Cooperation naturally increases effectiveness, even if no single or small group of mitigation techniques are essential. AoE damage can punish zerging so foes can not abuse numbers, traps can impede engagement against soft targets, healing can help recover damage taken, heavy attackers can lead the charge with defense effective enough to survive innitiation, certain classes can reduce and block damage to allies. And than there are still character manipulation techniques like taunting and fear which shouldn't come from the heavy armor.

The real problem is that taunting is given to the most optimum defensive unit so it can easily be abused, when common sense implies that it would be a magical effect just like fear. Even if a mage had to cast it on an allied defensive unit to effectively control aggression, it would more effectively divide essential roles in combat. Furthermore, restoration and damage reduction buffs are often heaped on to one class, the healer, when you can clearly and easily divide techniques which, reduce, intercept, and share damage, to another role to further divide the alternate supportive measures.

And now that I've done all but nearly spell out exactly how to rearrange role contributions to make all class types interchangeably supportive for group play while still retaining unique behaviors. I'll end with this one last big issue on the subject. Players who have been immersed in the MMO genre thus far are far more accepting and conditioned to the trinity due to exposure. They have been ok with it and come to appreciate the beneficial aspects generated with it. What they fail to realize is that the same or better grouping and cooperative gameplay can be done otherwise. Either because their already content, or because a broader more advanced form of cooperative gameplay isn't immediately appealing to them they just assume it is better. And they have a large sum of other satisfied or accepting participants to collaborate their approval.

That does not mean it is a better system, that is a community which has collected all those who were willing to accept and embrace that gameplay over several years. There has always been, and plenty be it, a population which does not like that gameplay, and wants something else, and its not remote, or small, they just arnt participating in the existing MMO space because games in the past have not been marketing to their interest.

Reliance on the "Aggression Control" based Tank lacks effective application to PvP combat, greatly limits tactical variety and diverse reaction in combat, dumbs down PvE content, and has become dated in the experience of even its most stalwart followers. It's time for MMOs to decisively evolve into a more diverse and interactive combat. Even in a slow, PvE application, diverse support options and freedom offer far more gameplay depth and intrigue. I sincerely hope the development community figures this out and broadens the horizon of MMO gaming before another generation of games is forfeit to the annals of repetitiveness.

Edit: this is the best I can do with my phone and this websites crazy interface...

Edit2: finally revised this at home.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  danwest58

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/09
Posts: 524

3/11/13 9:13:27 PM#170
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 
Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't ue the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

1. No it didnt, in fact it had a "quadrity", as you needed an enchanter for crowd control, or a really freakin good bard.

2. The holy trinity is not broken, the current form of the MMORPG is broken.  The Holy Trinity works just fine when you have a game that properly promotes grouping.  With the current state of mmo's being online single player RPGs then yes, the holy trinity becomes pointless.  Also, you're misidentifying the problem, the issue is not the holy trinity, but the pigeon holing of certain classes to certain roles. Rift proved the holy trinity works just fine, because just about every class could play just about every role.

3. GW2 is not a success, 3 million boxes sold means nothing if only 1/8th of that still regularly log into the game. See Diablo III for evidence of high box sales and failure. EVE ABSOLUTELY has the holy trinity, its just because its not called a cleric, or a DPS, or a tank.  But you absolutely have to have DPS ships, support ships, and tank ships to be be succesful in a non 1 on 1 fight. UO's focus was on PVP, and you can bet your ass the people who were most successful were the ones who showed up with a couple healers and CC'ers in the group.  Lets see, 5 dps, 2 healers and a cc'er vs 8 dps, who do you think wins that fight...

4. D&D is not an MMO. *Gasp*

 

This ^^

 

Well said and very logic post.  Holy Trinity was never broken only thing that was broken was games trying to get the single player crowd and first person shooter crowd into MMOs.  Now because of that we have a BROKEN state of MMOs.  

  danwest58

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/09
Posts: 524

3/11/13 9:27:43 PM#171
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Trinity itself isn't all that deep either.  Tank takes hits, Healer heals, DPS spams damage (and pretends throttling himself to avoid taking aggro off tank is 'depth.')  You know what your job is before you even sign up, and unless the dungeon/raid is bleeding-edge new content you've probably memorized the quirks thrown in to 'shake things up' already as well.

KaosProphet,

 

I agree with you heal Kaos because it is true Trinity now a days is no longer that deep.  It use to be very deep back Pre Wraith WOW.  Everyone thinks of holy Trinity being 3 DPS 1 Tank 1 Healer.  Well thats before we choosen to put DPS races into boss fights and major scripted boss fights.  In Vanilla WoW you could take 2 DPS 1 having a Long CC 1 having a short CC, 1 OT likely a Ret Pali, Holy Prist and a Warrior tank and get through any content.  I remember doing BRD, DM, and all the rest of the instances with that type of setup.  Trinity in those days were not 4 DKs and 1 Druid healer like todays LFD tools give you.  Back when groups took thought to setup over just throwing 3 dps 1 tank 1 healer into a group and say here go do this instance.  The problem becomes instant gratification.

And yes I understand people dont want to sit in a city spaming, LF1M DPS with CC for DM.  But you know what, if you were an MMO player you knew how to make friends, you knew how to find the right guild for you or you built 1.  If you play an MMO you do not need to run 2 instances in 1 hour just because.  That is why no MMO can make enough content is because players run the content so many times in such a short amount of time because of the LFG tools.  Its the Huge negative of and X Server LFG tool.  What Games need to be smarter at doing is not expanding servers so quickly and learn how to merge servers faster.  Or go to 1 Large server per time zone.  Then you can do a more granular LFG tool which roles such has short and long CC with a DPS class, or OT/DPS class.  Yea this setup you will still wait 30 minutes to an hour in queue if you are solo playing a MMO.  However if you make a group of 3 or 4 with friends or guild members you can fill the last spot or 2 by using LFG and get to know more people on your server.

  danwest58

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/09
Posts: 524

3/11/13 9:31:24 PM#172
Originally posted by nottuned

I remeber there being more such as CC, Puller, Tank, Healer, Support, Dps.

Holy trinity is the basic dumbing down of grouping now the next step is to remove that. Everyone should have every ability also everyone should have a gun and the game should be played in first person remove all levels and add instant spawn. The future of mmo's

Nottuned,

 

You are exactly correct. about trinity being more and the game being dumbed down.  Its really been dumbed down because LFG tools and more single player people have come into the MMO field wanting a Lobby based game.   The problem comes from LFG tools and making instances 30 minute runs.  No we dont need 2 hour instances however instances like DM, Strat, Scholo all could be down within an hour to hour and a half.  If you wanted a long drawn out instance you had BRD.  

  LauraFrost

Novice Member

Joined: 1/20/13
Posts: 91

3/12/13 2:38:14 AM#173
Originally posted by GroovyFlower

I don't like the holy trinity.

I don't come up with somehing better eather sorry.

 

Maybe i am with idea, get rid of health mana bar and all numbers in game give all players same strenght to tank heal or dmg like DayZ and trinity gone:)

The thing is, for specific game designs you cannot ignore player-roles approach (just stop saying trinity please).

World of Warcraft dumbed down class-roles to Tank, Healer and Dmg (since it's the most popular a lot of people think class-roles = three roles, hence Trinity).

 

I've been playing games for 30 years and I'm very skeptical about an MMORPG trying to go a role-less class deisgn for their game. It doesn't work, it works for DayZ maybe or any other game designed from the ground up to have role-less player classes but in MMORPGs, I still have to see it done to believe it and it will never work.

 

Look at Darkfall Unholy Wars and Champions Online, I rest my case.

 

To those who want role-less classes in MMORPGs, have you even tried one? (I did try a few)

Why do you hate roles in team/cooperative game? it doesn't make any sense to me.

Also, stop saying Trinity. Trinity suck, bring more roles I'm sick of dumbed down games I'm tired of lack of depth. Having zero roles means you want things to be even more shallow than what they are now. How about no?

 

  tupodawg999

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 571

3/12/13 3:18:22 AM#174

The trinity creates silly fights - all the mobs attacking one player on one hand or all the players ignoring being hacked in the back by mobs while they all attack the mob's healer on the other. It's just silly. However even though it's silly there is at least *some* tactics to it rather than a mindless zerg. Personally i don't like either but the trinity just wins on the basis of having at least *some* strategy.

 

I still think games should look at group fight scenes in fantasy movies first and then try and develop combat mechanics afterwards that would recreate it e.g. ideas from wargames like zone of control.

  User Deleted
3/12/13 3:21:05 AM#175

Nerf the over-powered tanks and bring back crowd control would be my vote.  I think it would make combat more strategic.

 

  DancingQueen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/12
Posts: 221

3/12/13 5:25:22 AM#176
Healing potions with a 10 seconds cooldown and every class can spec for tanking i.e. do less damage but absorb more damage + get a larger HP pool.
  Talin

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 825

You only live once... make it count!

3/12/13 5:41:43 AM#177

What's missing from most modern MMOs is a "bonus" for grouping beyond the mechanics of the trinity itself (tank, spank, heal).

Each class should bring something to a group that makes their groupmates more effective in some way than they were before.

Classes like EQ, DAOC, etc had significant buffs that were able to be granted that tremendously increased effectivness in different roles. I also miss a lot of the utility/novelty abilities and spells, everything from summoning objects, to levitate, etc.

I have often preached in different threads (I won't get into the same details here) that classes should be a "theme" of the way in which an individual acccomplishes the assorted roles. There is no reason why there couldn't be a "skill tree" for each role (tank, healer, damage, support) in a given class, allowing the "Warrior" to shift between Guardian, Medic, Berserker, and Commander roles respectively.

There's my something better. Enjoy. 

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

3/12/13 6:05:30 AM#178
Originally posted by LauraFrost

To those who want role-less classes in MMORPGs, have you even tried one? (I did try a few)

That's nice.  So have I.  I guess our opinions differ on the matter.

Does that bother you?  It seems to, but then people around here often act in ways contradictory to how they feel.

Why do you hate roles in team/cooperative game? it doesn't make any sense to me.

I generally dislike systems that hold your hand and tell you how to play.  It feels like I'm being patronized, like the devs thought I was too dumb to figure out how to work with other people if they didn't tell me what to do.

Fixed-role classes hold your hand and tell you how to play them.

(Also, I like being able to do something when the team isn't around yet.  And LFG isn't that something.)

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3144

3/12/13 6:05:50 AM#179
EQ didn't have a strict holy trinity.. There was many of times I or my group defeated mobs without having a healer or tank.. lol
  Jemcrystal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1271

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

3/12/13 6:13:49 AM#180
Originally posted by Nitth

I think if you want any chance of changing the system you have to look at group sizes larger than 5.

BING!  We have a winner.  I am sick of going in with only five.  Raids only ftw.

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