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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Collision Detection in Camelot Unchained: Yes or No?

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291 posts found
  Zydari

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/08
Posts: 84

Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.
Plato

3/11/13 11:21:00 AM#161
It's a MUST for all the listed reasons.

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.

Thomas Jefferson

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

3/11/13 11:30:38 AM#162
I don't think people mind "leaps" (or "charge").  I think people are far more suspicious of "pulls" and "punts."  They are a shitty mechanic to balance.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

3/11/13 11:40:31 AM#163
And pretty much mandatory for any CD to work.... yet people scream CD is a must have it adds strategy, and then turn around and comdemn the mechanics that are used to balance it. I like the idea of limited CD on spells or abilities far better than "stone" or "mud" CD all the time.
  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2521

3/11/13 11:46:11 AM#164
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Only reason the UI is clunky is because its over 10 years old, and honestly biggest reason I don't still play.

I think a dev with his eyes closed now could make a better interface UI.

I'm always floored by foolish comments like this.

 

First, no one has been able to say how the UI is CLUNKY. It's nice and minimalistic. Things that are minimalistic can hardly be considered clunky.

On top of that, you can completely mod the UI. So you're not locked into it anyway.

 

But no, the UI and graphics aren't what made the game die. Its the years upon years of moronic patch decisions, dumbing the game down for the WoW audience, and gutting the living world feel of the game.

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

3/11/13 11:47:11 AM#165
Originally posted by Odaman
And pretty much mandatory for any CD to work.... yet people scream CD is a must have it adds strategy, and then turn around and comdemn the mechanics that are used to balance it.

Oda, I agree.  I'm kinda on the fence about CD.  It needs to be done REALLY well if it's going to work.  That means:

-Account for impenetrable blockage of chokepoints.

-Account for getting trapped in the zerg.

-Account for the possible slide-show-lag-fest at sieges.

On the other hand, without CD the game will have to:

-Account for LoS exploits like "running through," jumping, spinning and lag-casting.

-Account for an inevitable "war of numbers" at sieges.

-Try desparately to balance the CC that will be used to address the first two problems.

 

In the end, it's really a tough call.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/11/13 11:48:31 AM#166
Originally posted by Odaman
And pretty much mandatory for any CD to work.... yet people scream CD is a must have it adds strategy, and then turn around and comdemn the mechanics that are used to balance it. I like the idea of limited CD on spells or abilities far better than "stone" or "mud" CD all the time.

I just hope MJ thinks about the big picture... One could argue listening to the people was what caused daoc to fall to ruin and WAR to blow just as much as the big wigs pulling for more revenue did.

People crying everyday for balance across realms was what caused NF and ruined the uniqueness of the keeps so they didn't have to hear people cry "HIB Keeps are SO EASY TO DEFEND WE CANT TAKE THEM WHAA" or whatever.

 

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2521

3/11/13 11:49:30 AM#167
Originally posted by Kuldebar
Originally posted by dynamicipftw
So pro-CD guys which MMOs with CD had great combat? Give us names.

Every game in existence has collision detection, yes, even Tetris.

Also Darkfall, DayZ, Mount&Blade...

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/11/13 11:52:58 AM#168
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Only reason the UI is clunky is because its over 10 years old, and honestly biggest reason I don't still play.

I think a dev with his eyes closed now could make a better interface UI.

I'm always floored by foolish comments like this.

 

First, no one has been able to say how the UI is CLUNKY. It's nice and minimalistic. Things that are minimalistic can hardly be considered clunky.

On top of that, you can completely mod the UI. So you're not locked into it anyway.

 

But no, the UI and graphics aren't what made the game die. Its the years upon years of moronic patch decisions, dumbing the game down for the WoW audience, and gutting the living world feel of the game.

It just feels old, not necessarily the look ... but selling items, such limited bag space, talking to NPC's is weird, the Auction house is horrible and buggy,

I prefer the clean look of the UI of daoc, but i should have stated its the other things that seem clunky and slow.

I think if they had finished origins, i would have delt with this issue and prob would be playing that server heh. Assuming its population is not terrible. But i agree there are other issues with the game, but it could run a lot smoother, I do prefer daoc attack / casting animations than anything i've seen in other games.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  povilezaz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/19/11
Posts: 27

3/11/13 12:10:25 PM#169
I am all for collisions .Fight would be much more fun if there were posibillities to defend against bigger army at some choke points . ofcourse would be quite stupid if few tanks with tons of heals could hold gates ... Would it be that hard to implement system where you can push your enemies (or and friends) .so if 2 tanks push at each other one with more str. moves very slowly forward ,also if some friends helping to push from behind they add some strength . this way all gates can get pushed through if forces are just wayyy to different .  (In WOT atm its possible to push friends and foes and friends can help you drive faster .... some phisics ) . not  sure is it posible for mmos atm ...
  sweetdigs

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/03
Posts: 199

3/11/13 1:13:09 PM#170
I think you need CD in a PVP-oriented game.
  Demerzel

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/04
Posts: 22

3/11/13 2:07:09 PM#171
300pp battle smooth with nog cd ord 100ppl battle smooth with cd..?
  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2521

3/11/13 2:17:28 PM#172
Originally posted by Demerzel
300pp battle smooth with nog cd ord 100ppl battle smooth with cd..?

You can do both, see Darkfall.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

3/11/13 2:36:08 PM#173
Or either planetside
  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

3/11/13 2:47:59 PM#174
Originally posted by povilezaz
... Would it be that hard to implement system where you can push your enemies (or and friends) .so if 2 tanks push at each other one with more str. moves very slowly forward ,also if some friends helping to push from behind they add some strength . this way all gates can get pushed through if forces are just wayyy to different...
I had thought of something like this, too.  Maybe even give "large" toons (Firbolg/Half Ogre/Troll types) a bonus in this situation and "small" toons (Lurikeens, Kobolds, inconnu) a penalty.  Would make choosing races have a bit more meaning.  I'm no coder so I don't know how it might work or how it could affect the framerate. 
I'm still of the opinion that CD will have to be done VERY well to be worth it.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Kuldebar

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 65

 
OP  3/11/13 3:13:09 PM#175
Originally posted by Odaman

I noticed the poll for CD has CD winning here, but the poll of KB,Pulls, and leaps has more people not wanting them. It's funny because with CD you need those things.... it just goes to show people don't really think deeply about things and the consequences of a decision must be put in their face for them to even consider them. 

With CD comes forced movement abilities. Leaps tend to come as a counter for those forced movement abilities. With leaps you will probably steer away from hard interrupts (that daoc had). A nice little chain that takes away more strategy than CD creates. 

 

Hogwash!

 

Having collision detection between players does not force devs to add "pulling" or "knockback" abilities to the game. That's utter rubbish. Talk about thinking deeply, sheesh!

 

CD doesn't mean "forced" anything, it does mean you can't walk through things with impunity.

Those who tread with ill intent
Beneath our sacred firmament,
Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
Albion's might shall strike at thee!

  Kuldebar

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 65

 
OP  3/11/13 3:16:35 PM#176
Originally posted by Laec
What about a endo based CD like Ultima Online? if you have the endo to do so you can 'push' them out of the way and walk through them. personally CD drives me nuts because when there is massive zergs in an area it just turns into a cluster and you are restricted so much it makes you want to cry or punch a baby. But I could live with the UO method of CD

 

What you refer to is collision detection, a method based on the "mud" filter most likely.

 

Congratulations, you like CD in games!

 

Also, large hordes of players should be clusterfucks, just like in real life when you have masses of people trying to occupy a small place.

Those who tread with ill intent
Beneath our sacred firmament,
Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
Albion's might shall strike at thee!

  Foggye

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 92

3/11/13 3:18:57 PM#177

I'm still on the fence about it, leaning towards no; although, I think it should at least be explored.  Depending on CU resources (if backed) then I think it's definitely could beta tested to see if it would be something that could work out for CU in the mid-later stages of beta.

 

If put in, I like the idea of having race matter about CD (CHOICE MATTERS!!).   Using Daoc races as an example.  A keen couldn't be able to get past a norse, but the same norse would have trouble getting around a half-ogre, but an inconnu could squeeze underneath a firbolg.  Just a random thought.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/11/13 3:20:04 PM#178
Originally posted by Kuldebar
Originally posted by Laec
What about a endo based CD like Ultima Online? if you have the endo to do so you can 'push' them out of the way and walk through them. personally CD drives me nuts because when there is massive zergs in an area it just turns into a cluster and you are restricted so much it makes you want to cry or punch a baby. But I could live with the UO method of CD

 

What you refer to is collision detection, a method based on the "mud" filter most likely.

 

Congratulations, you like CD in games!

 

Also, large hordes of players should be clusterfucks, just like in real life when you have masses of people trying to occupy a small place.

Because being in those scenarios in real life is fun ... just like its fun in a game ... NOT

Games supposed to be fun, not just emulate real life... try again.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  sweetdigs

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/03
Posts: 199

3/11/13 3:22:05 PM#179
Originally posted by Foggye

I'm still on the fence about it, leaning towards no; although, I think it should at least be explored.  Depending on CU resources (if backed) then I think it's definitely could beta tested to see if it would be something that could work out for CU in the mid-later stages of beta.

 

If put in, I like the idea of having race matter about CD (CHOICE MATTERS!!).   Using Daoc races as an example.  A keen couldn't be able to get past a norse, but the same norse would have trouble getting around a half-ogre, but an inconnu could squeeze underneath a firbolg.  Just a random thought.

How about something even more novel that we've never seen in MMOs before.

Make Strength Matter.  Perhaps even make Strength result in a "force factor" that is multiplied times your size to give you some sort of inertia factor.  So that a really strong norse might be able to move an average strength half-ogre.  But a weak half-ogre could probably still push a keen around.  A stronger keen could move a weaker keen.

This would add a whole 'nother level of tactics to how castle sieges might go.

Ideally this is a factor the game could have built in and wouldn't need to caculate at each instance of a collision.  If they could do this in a non-resource intensive way, it would be incredibly interesting.

  Kuldebar

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 65

 
OP  3/11/13 3:24:55 PM#180
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by Odaman
And pretty much mandatory for any CD to work.... yet people scream CD is a must have it adds strategy, and then turn around and comdemn the mechanics that are used to balance it.

Oda, I agree.  I'm kinda on the fence about CD.  It needs to be done REALLY well if it's going to work.  That means:

-Account for impenetrable blockage of chokepoints.

-Account for getting trapped in the zerg.

-Account for the possible slide-show-lag-fest at sieges.

On the other hand, without CD the game will have to:

-Account for LoS exploits like "running through," jumping, spinning and lag-casting.

-Account for an inevitable "war of numbers" at sieges.

-Try desparately to balance the CC that will be used to address the first two problems.

 

In the end, it's really a tough call.

 

Here's my take on some of your points:

Account for impenetrable blockage of chokepoints.

If it's impenetrable, that means it is very well and actively defended, stop attacking the enemy at their strongest point or reassess and take the fight somewhere else.

Account for getting trapped in the zerg.

Outflanking, encircling and trapping the enemy by having overwhelming numbers is part of the reason you try to have a large force in play, the counter to this are chokepoints and fortified positions, in open fields; the large force will always have the advantage if they play to their advantage wisely.

Account for the possible slide-show-lag-fest at sieges.

That kind of applies to everything in the game, so it's a rather redundant stipulation in regards to collision detection.

 

It's really not a tough sell at all.

Those who tread with ill intent
Beneath our sacred firmament,
Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
Albion's might shall strike at thee!

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