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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is there something the Sandbox genre can do better at?

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75 posts found
  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

3/11/13 7:34:53 AM#21
Originally posted by MMOExposed
To improve the Sandbox genre, is there something that need to be improved? What can be done to improve the genre?

Appealing to customers? Marketing and advertisement?

/snerk

 

More seriously-realise when and where you are self-limiting your player base's ultimate size. If it's intentional (say Darkfall marketing "death penalty=mad l33t yo"), ok then it's a design choice, hello micro company.

If it's EVE taking years to realize it need players to do their learning curve education for them...that's just devs not paying attention, and/or a player base determined to be insular.

Your players are going to shoot for maximum exclusion. That's just how gamers behave, and not limited to 'hardcore' either.

If you want your game to sell more; you need to be aware that it's happening, and actively work against it.

But that would make you Blizzard. Is that really what you want to be?

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

3/11/13 8:02:45 AM#22
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Better showcasing and recording of player impact on the game world. One of the biggest features of a sandbox-focused MMO is the one that seems least served by most developers - the history written by the players. Single-shard universes (ex: ATITD, EVE Online) would benefit greatly from putting such content on display for several reasons:

  • Universal relevance - The entirety of the playerbase is affected by it and, if we take into account the butterfly effect, had some hand in creating it.
  • An involvement resource - Many players want to take part in the sandbox gameplay but are either unsure how or simply don't know what is currently happening.
  • It answers The Freedom Question - A lot of sandbox-focused MMOs like to pitch that players can impact the game world, but they rarely say HOW. For the sandbox-curious or the new player, a timeline of sorts is a great way to show how, especially in the case of the more established sandbox-style games because it also helps to dispell the myth that new players cannot impact the game world in older MMOs.
 

Sometimes the chronicling of history is done by the devs, but it usually is in such a manner that it's not readily digestible or unclear that it isn't fiction. In most cases, there often is no single place a player can go for a clear answer as to what the latest major events are or what is currently playing out in-game.

Some MMOs put the history on a wiki. Game wikis are great for looking up information, but they are bland, limited in functionality, and they don't seem to do justice to what is one of the biggest selling points of sandbox-focused MMOs.

 

Some examples of player-created timelines.

 

Now imagine a dev-created resource in-game or on the main website (interactive, preferrably) where players could see or even update the history, emergent gameplay, politics, shifts in power, player venues, momentous events, etc.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Book_of_EVE

That link is a great example of what I was saying above; thanks for posting it!

  • Chronicling by the devs in such a manner that it's not readily digestible or unclear that it isn't fiction.
  • There's no clear answer as to what the latest major events are or what is currently playing out in-game.
  • Game wikis are great for looking up information, but they are bland, limited in functionality, and they don't seem to do justice to what is one of the biggest selling points of sandbox-focused MMOs.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  User Deleted
3/11/13 8:11:10 AM#23
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Better showcasing and recording of player impact on the game world. One of the biggest features of a sandbox-focused MMO is the one that seems least served by most developers - the history written by the players. Single-shard universes (ex: ATITD, EVE Online) would benefit greatly from putting such content on display for several reasons:

  • Universal relevance - The entirety of the playerbase is affected by it and, if we take into account the butterfly effect, had some hand in creating it.
  • An involvement resource - Many players want to take part in the sandbox gameplay but are either unsure how or simply don't know what is currently happening.
  • It answers The Freedom Question - A lot of sandbox-focused MMOs like to pitch that players can impact the game world, but they rarely say HOW. For the sandbox-curious or the new player, a timeline of sorts is a great way to show how, especially in the case of the more established sandbox-style games because it also helps to dispell the myth that new players cannot impact the game world in older MMOs.
 

Sometimes the chronicling of history is done by the devs, but it usually is in such a manner that it's not readily digestible or unclear that it isn't fiction. In most cases, there often is no single place a player can go for a clear answer as to what the latest major events are or what is currently playing out in-game.

Some MMOs put the history on a wiki. Game wikis are great for looking up information, but they are bland, limited in functionality, and they don't seem to do justice to what is one of the biggest selling points of sandbox-focused MMOs.

 

Some examples of player-created timelines.

 

Now imagine a dev-created resource in-game or on the main website (interactive, preferrably) where players could see or even update the history, emergent gameplay, politics, shifts in power, player venues, momentous events, etc.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Book_of_EVE

That link is a great example of what I was saying above; thanks for posting it!

  • Chronicling by the devs in such a manner that it's not readily digestible or unclear that it isn't fiction.
  • There's no clear answer as to what the latest major events are or what is currently playing out in-game.
  • Game wikis are great for looking up information, but they are bland, limited in functionality, and they don't seem to do justice to what is one of the biggest selling points of sandbox-focused MMOs.

Try downloading the PDF please ^^' (in EVE there are no major events, at least not in the sense that "oh yeah this shit was big!" because in the grander scheme of things you donno what else is coming down the pipeline and what impact it would have on you, as a gamer with set goals in the sandbox of EVE, ergo major events do not exist as a universal constant, some events might be major to you, say the begining of Sansha's incursions, but to me it's just a annoying little event that crops up every now and then in my mission hubs) and as for devs telling the stories players live out... that's like asking a  war report how a soldier's life is, he/she might give a good idea but you'll never hear the full story.

 

Edit: You can find chronicles of the wars in EVE quite easily and with a little back reading you get the general gist of things easily.

Examples: The first Great Northen War and one of my favourites Rooks and King's Clarion's Call 3

  coretex666

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1839

"I shall take your position into consideration"

3/11/13 8:28:46 AM#24

In my opinion, sandbox games need to:

a) Be more realistic (e.g. specialization in crafting, implementation of principles from real world to a MMO)

b) Be less PvP focused (full loot arena like Darkfall is nice, but very niche, limited possibilities dont help the game ressemble a virtual world)

c) Add more interesting PVE (I have not seen many interesting PVE activities in sandbox games)

d) Be more complex overall (The games are still too simple, hardly appealing to an adult gamer. This is related to point 1. The game needs to implement real world principles to achieve higher complexity. It can be in sci fi or fantasy or any other setting..)

e) Have larger budgets (I do not insist on amazing graphics or gameplay. It is less important than e.g. interesting character progression for me. To illustrate, I am currently playing Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven which is a RPG from 1998 with terrible graphics, gameplay, yet with amazing RPG mechanisms and I am having more fun with it than with TERA for instance. The sandbox MMOs obviously need larger budgets to be more developed than the ones which are currently in the market)

 

More or less subjective points, so feel free to disagree.

I described a simple sandbox concept in developers corner. Link is in my signature. I do not go too deep in the concept...it is long enough like this already. It addresses these and other points in greater detail.

 

EDIT: As I suggested in the concept, specialization would bring people from the faction together and would lead to natural urbanization.

An example from a sandbox game I have in mind: 

Imagine a player built city. On the city hall door, there would be a sign put there by one of the player elected leaders of the city.

"The enemy breached our defense lines. They managed to destroy our iron mine in the north before we pushed them back. We are currently unable to supply our blacksmith, so that they cannot create weapons, plate armors, agricultural tools requiring iron, etc. We hereby put to vote releasing of 10 000 gold (collected in city treasury from taxes) for hiring 20 computer controlled guards for 1 week to foster our defense lines before we manage to repair the mine. We consider it a top priority as next time, the enemy may burn our farms in the west and we will all die from hunger (or will not be able to prosper for some time, so the enemy faction would finish us off). On top of that, we also put to vote a 100 gold reward for killing a member of opposing faction who steps into our lands."

 

 

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4300

3/11/13 8:31:53 AM#25

The main thing that any dev making a sandbox needs to do is not listen to the I want it all now kiddies..

 

 

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/11/13 8:34:33 AM#26
Originally posted by haplo602
Originally posted by Quirhid

Like the Axehilt said, pretty much everything, but the worst of all is the moment to moment gameplay. They are mostly about doing arduous and mundane activities with few peaks of actual fun here and there. Often its not worth it all. The fun you may have in them is not worth the effort.

I also think too many games have just too much unnecessary shit tacked on to them. "Ooh, but the flowers turn towards the sun!" -Nobody really gives a crap! Features like that are wasted manhours and resources. How can they concentrate on fluff like that when half the time the core gameplay already makes you want to stick toothpicks under your toenails and kick a wall?

Make sure the game is fun and works before adding unnecessary shit.

You have a problem with the first part. Sandboxes mimic real life to a great extent and mundane and repetitive tasks are part of your daily life (work, school etc.). Even the themeparks get this wrong. You end in a gear/raid/quest treadmill in the end. Sandboxes usualy have the advantage of you picking the means to an end, themeparks do not.

I see you've confused two terms: sandbox and simulation. Sandboxes don't need to simulate real life, simulations/simulators on the otherhand, are meant to simulate life.

No, sandboxes do not have to simulate anything. All they need to do is be sandboxes.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

3/11/13 8:50:25 AM#27
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Better showcasing and recording of player impact on the game world. One of the biggest features of a sandbox-focused MMO is the one that seems least served by most developers - the history written by the players. Single-shard universes (ex: ATITD, EVE Online) would benefit greatly from putting such content on display for several reasons:

  • Universal relevance - The entirety of the playerbase is affected by it and, if we take into account the butterfly effect, had some hand in creating it.
  • An involvement resource - Many players want to take part in the sandbox gameplay but are either unsure how or simply don't know what is currently happening.
  • It answers The Freedom Question - A lot of sandbox-focused MMOs like to pitch that players can impact the game world, but they rarely say HOW. For the sandbox-curious or the new player, a timeline of sorts is a great way to show how, especially in the case of the more established sandbox-style games because it also helps to dispell the myth that new players cannot impact the game world in older MMOs.
 

Sometimes the chronicling of history is done by the devs, but it usually is in such a manner that it's not readily digestible or unclear that it isn't fiction. In most cases, there often is no single place a player can go for a clear answer as to what the latest major events are or what is currently playing out in-game.

Some MMOs put the history on a wiki. Game wikis are great for looking up information, but they are bland, limited in functionality, and they don't seem to do justice to what is one of the biggest selling points of sandbox-focused MMOs.

 

Some examples of player-created timelines.

 

Now imagine a dev-created resource in-game or on the main website (interactive, preferrably) where players could see or even update the history, emergent gameplay, politics, shifts in power, player venues, momentous events, etc.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Book_of_EVE

That link is a great example of what I was saying above; thanks for posting it!

  • Chronicling by the devs in such a manner that it's not readily digestible or unclear that it isn't fiction.
  • There's no clear answer as to what the latest major events are or what is currently playing out in-game.
  • Game wikis are great for looking up information, but they are bland, limited in functionality, and they don't seem to do justice to what is one of the biggest selling points of sandbox-focused MMOs.

Try downloading the PDF please ^^' (in EVE there are no major events, at least not in the sense that "oh yeah this shit was big!" because in the grander scheme of things you donno what else is coming down the pipeline and what impact it would have on you, as a gamer with set goals in the sandbox of EVE, ergo major events do not exist as a universal constant, some events might be major to you, say the begining of Sansha's incursions, but to me it's just a annoying little event that crops up every now and then in my mission hubs) and as for devs telling the stories players live out... that's like asking a  war report how a soldier's life is, he/she might give a good idea but you'll never hear the full story.

I'm very familiar with the Book of EVE. In addition to it being a great example of all of the issues presented above, the content in it ended three years ago... and it's 1,000 pages long. 

"in EVE there are no major events..."

As stated in my first post, the events I am referring to aren't dev events but player events. In EVE, those are the ones that shape and change the game world. Some individual examples would be:

The Great War

The Ubiqua Seraph assassination

The Battle of Asakai

Burn Jita

Hulkaggedon

Goons Disband

Attack on Chribba's POS - this one is a beautiful example of not only the collaboration of players from all walks of EVE life, but also of the ripple effect the event had beyond the event itself.

 

Some examples of sites that cover these player events would be:

 

Shadowbane used to have a regular herald feature and an interactive dynamic map of the world on their site. A player interested in the latest politics, current balance of power, ongoing player venues (training towns, libraries, merchant cities, etcs) could go to the site and get this information. They could find out what was happening now in the world of Shadowbane.

Ultima Online players could do the same at http://uo.stratics.com (as close to official as you're going to get since the main site is now just marketing and maintenance news), where the latest story, player events, tournaments and such are posted.

 

To reiterate, I'm not saying that no dev records this kind of stuff, only answering the OP's question  - it's one area where sandbox games can do better.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16835

3/11/13 8:53:30 AM#28
Originally posted by MMOExposed
To improve the Sandbox genre, is there something that need to be improved? What can be done to improve the genre?

That is a good question.

I think sandbox games should try to be a bit more like P&P RPGs, and other P&Ps than D&D.

I also think that sandboxes needs to add stuff for the casuals as well without detroying the game for the current crowd. To really afford running a AAA MMO a game needs to attract enough players and if you niche them too much that aint gonna happen.

The question is just if you can please both crowds, I think you can but it is a hard balance.

For one thing I think sandboxes needs to add a new serverset with more limited PvP as well as the usual FFA full loot. Maybe one where you only gets flagged in enemy terrain and instead generate random loot while keeping your stuff. That means the regular crowd still can play on their servers without any change while the casuals gets their more casual servers and the game gets in enough money.

I also think that sandboxes needs to become better at PvE, most games now are so-so or worse.

The siege part can also be improved to be more tactical. I am in favor of something similar to "Natural selections" commanders, a tactical view for a general and 2 fieldmarshalls so they can give orders and drop boosts/heals for each side.

I would like a sandbox where you actually can play monsters and build a dungeon with traps and stuff in for your guild.

Sandboxes are fun but they can become a lot better, the evolution more or less stopped after UO, Eve and Pre-CU SWG. But the real problem right now is that they cant generate enough players for someone really competent to make one, that is why Bethesda let Zenimax hire in Firor and made ASO a RvR themepark instead of a sandbox, they thought it have better chanses to get in money.

If made right I think a sandbox should do well today anyways (Ok, Eve is doing well but twice or more of that).

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16835

3/11/13 8:55:34 AM#29
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by haplo602

You have a problem with the first part. Sandboxes mimic real life to a great extent and mundane and repetitive tasks are part of your daily life (work, school etc.). Even the themeparks get this wrong. You end in a gear/raid/quest treadmill in the end. Sandboxes usualy have the advantage of you picking the means to an end, themeparks do not.

I see you've confused two terms: sandbox and simulation. Sandboxes don't need to simulate real life, simulations/simulators on the otherhand, are meant to simulate life.

No, sandboxes do not have to simulate anything. All they need to do is be sandboxes.

Agreed, sandboxes is more about player generated content and freedom. If it just was about doing menial tasks many more MMOs would be sandboxes.

  Neherun

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/07
Posts: 240

3/11/13 9:30:42 AM#30

By giving people a real purpose. See DayZ, a perma-death game that is now in translation to MMO server architecture is thriving. Why? Because that sandbox gave players a goal; Survival. Doesn't matter what the red tape is, people will need it, otherwise they'll feel void in the world.

 

  WellzyC

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/11
Posts: 546

Ceaseless

3/11/13 9:34:10 AM#31
Originally posted by MMOExposed
To improve the Sandbox genre, is there something that need to be improved? What can be done to improve the genre?

 

 

um yeah....

 how about making one.

The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.

The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, Linear Questing, Cut-Scenes...


www.CeaselessGuild.com

  haplo602

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 162

3/11/13 9:44:59 AM#32
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by haplo602
Originally posted by Quirhid

Like the Axehilt said, pretty much everything, but the worst of all is the moment to moment gameplay. They are mostly about doing arduous and mundane activities with few peaks of actual fun here and there. Often its not worth it all. The fun you may have in them is not worth the effort.

I also think too many games have just too much unnecessary shit tacked on to them. "Ooh, but the flowers turn towards the sun!" -Nobody really gives a crap! Features like that are wasted manhours and resources. How can they concentrate on fluff like that when half the time the core gameplay already makes you want to stick toothpicks under your toenails and kick a wall?

Make sure the game is fun and works before adding unnecessary shit.

You have a problem with the first part. Sandboxes mimic real life to a great extent and mundane and repetitive tasks are part of your daily life (work, school etc.). Even the themeparks get this wrong. You end in a gear/raid/quest treadmill in the end. Sandboxes usualy have the advantage of you picking the means to an end, themeparks do not.

I see you've confused two terms: sandbox and simulation. Sandboxes don't need to simulate real life, simulations/simulators on the otherhand, are meant to simulate life.

No, sandboxes do not have to simulate anything. All they need to do is be sandboxes.

Actualy my view is quite correct. In order for your character to live and evolve (gain experience and skills etc.) there has to be some training process in the game. This translates in a living simulation in scope of the game world. Otherwise there cannot be any evolution or time flow. And this is universal to every game with any kind of character progression.

 

You might not like this simplified view but it does not make it any less true. 

 

Notice I did not say sandbox games are simulations of real life, just that they mimic it to some extent.

 

 

  User Deleted
3/11/13 10:10:54 AM#33
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Better showcasing and recording of player impact on the game world. One of the biggest features of a sandbox-focused MMO is the one that seems least served by most developers - the history written by the players. Single-shard universes (ex: ATITD, EVE Online) would benefit greatly from putting such content on display for several reasons:

  • Universal relevance - The entirety of the playerbase is affected by it and, if we take into account the butterfly effect, had some hand in creating it.
  • An involvement resource - Many players want to take part in the sandbox gameplay but are either unsure how or simply don't know what is currently happening.
  • It answers The Freedom Question - A lot of sandbox-focused MMOs like to pitch that players can impact the game world, but they rarely say HOW. For the sandbox-curious or the new player, a timeline of sorts is a great way to show how, especially in the case of the more established sandbox-style games because it also helps to dispell the myth that new players cannot impact the game world in older MMOs.
 

Sometimes the chronicling of history is done by the devs, but it usually is in such a manner that it's not readily digestible or unclear that it isn't fiction. In most cases, there often is no single place a player can go for a clear answer as to what the latest major events are or what is currently playing out in-game.

Some MMOs put the history on a wiki. Game wikis are great for looking up information, but they are bland, limited in functionality, and they don't seem to do justice to what is one of the biggest selling points of sandbox-focused MMOs.

 

Some examples of player-created timelines.

 

Now imagine a dev-created resource in-game or on the main website (interactive, preferrably) where players could see or even update the history, emergent gameplay, politics, shifts in power, player venues, momentous events, etc.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Book_of_EVE

That link is a great example of what I was saying above; thanks for posting it!

  • Chronicling by the devs in such a manner that it's not readily digestible or unclear that it isn't fiction.
  • There's no clear answer as to what the latest major events are or what is currently playing out in-game.
  • Game wikis are great for looking up information, but they are bland, limited in functionality, and they don't seem to do justice to what is one of the biggest selling points of sandbox-focused MMOs.

Try downloading the PDF please ^^' (in EVE there are no major events, at least not in the sense that "oh yeah this shit was big!" because in the grander scheme of things you donno what else is coming down the pipeline and what impact it would have on you, as a gamer with set goals in the sandbox of EVE, ergo major events do not exist as a universal constant, some events might be major to you, say the begining of Sansha's incursions, but to me it's just a annoying little event that crops up every now and then in my mission hubs) and as for devs telling the stories players live out... that's like asking a  war report how a soldier's life is, he/she might give a good idea but you'll never hear the full story.

I'm very familiar with the Book of EVE. In addition to it being a great example of all of the issues presented above, the content in it ended three years ago... and it's 1,000 pages long. 

"in EVE there are no major events..."

As stated in my first post, the events I am referring to aren't dev events but player events. In EVE, those are the ones that shape and change the game world. Some individual examples would be:

The Great War

The Ubiqua Seraph assassination

The Battle of Asakai

Burn Jita

Hulkaggedon

Goons Disband

Attack on Chribba's POS - this one is a beautiful example of not only the collaboration of players from all walks of EVE life, but also of the ripple effect the event had beyond the event itself.

 

Some examples of sites that cover these player events would be:

 

Shadowbane used to have a regular herald feature and an interactive dynamic map of the world on their site. A player interested in the latest politics, current balance of power, ongoing player venues (training towns, libraries, merchant cities, etcs) could go to the site and get this information. They could find out what was happening now in the world of Shadowbane.

Ultima Online players could do the same at http://uo.stratics.com (as close to official as you're going to get since the main site is now just marketing and maintenance news), where the latest story, player events, tournaments and such are posted.

 

To reiterate, I'm not saying that no dev records this kind of stuff, only answering the OP's question  - it's one area where sandbox games can do better.

 

 

The Great War - not that important, the main opponents never settled their beefs with each other until over half a decade later when Goonswarm with the help of TEST finally eradicated IT alliance which was to be perfectly frank a shadow of BoB that survived the alliance wide assassination.

The Ubiqua Seraph assassination - impressive but did not have much if any of an impact, clones people. As for the theft... those are by no means uncommon and hell one of the EVE-Online player run banks recently (think within the last 6 months) went "yo guys, sorry but your shit is now ours" and I recall the isk in that theft was over a trillion isk.

The Battle of Asakai - major alliances derping each other, the only real kicker of that event was where it took place and why. No real long term effects on anyone besides involved parties (which to be fair were allot of parties).

Burn Jita - Goonswarm being Goons, fun fact I was in Jita during the burn event dropping off loot in a Vengeance, the only thing that pissed me off was the insane time dilation which meant my usual trip within the system took 10 min instead of 6-7.

Hulkaggedon - pretty much dead due to the exhumer/mining barge rebalancing and what it was was basically open season on those two ship types and sometimes missioners as well, someone did try to gank my tengu during a hulkageddon... easiest damn 2 intact plates I've ever made.

Goons Disband - Mittani himself covered this as basically the previous leadership's crowning derp moment, short version: they forgot to pay the bills and their space got repoed, high sec, low sec and null sec everwhere else was not affected.

Attack on Chribba's POS - Love Chribba as he's a decent guy in a game where most major players are jackals but if you think the attack had any impact on anyone besides involved parties you're stretching it.

 

As I said major events are non-existent in EVE in terms of emergent gameplay as a smart player will have double hell even triple buffers so they don't end up flying an Ibis for 2 weeks getting money (I got 3 redundencies in isk earning potential and each of these redundencies has further backups). The true major events are GM led and while rare they still happen and their effects can be dictated by the players participating (if I am not mistaken the ships classes and types in Incursions were somewhat  influenced at least in terms of naming conventions by the defenders against the initial Sansha Incursions).

  cinos

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/05
Posts: 975

3/11/13 10:12:51 AM#34
Originally posted by BitterClinger
I don't have a real answer.  I can only think that the next successful sandbox MMO will either be hyper-niche or implement a lot of hand-holding for new players to get them into the meat of the game and the economy. Oh yeah, and drop the "sandbox = open world pvp" thing (unless you're going hyper-niche).

Pretty much nailed my thoughts whilst I waited for the thread to load. :)

No need for me to add more than a reaffirmation.

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3583

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/11/13 10:26:14 AM#35

First off, you have to break the connection between forced PvP and the phrase "sand box".  In way too many people, the one implies the other.  That right there, auto niches any game that applies it.  I don't care what type of "new and creative" system the Dev's think they have come up with, if they include forced PvP, the game will auto niche.

It has been demonstrated in game, after game, after game, that including forced PvP, always leads to an endless arms race between the Dev's and the Goonie types. Why? For the same reason that CCP (a VERY pro PvP company) has had to evolve Concord and the high sec rules of engagement.  To protect their business model. 

That soaks up a lot of Dev time/talent and focus, that could be better applied to other areas of the game.

Like it or not, there are a LOT of CareBears out and about, and their money is green. ^^

Once that has been dealt with, then one can move forward with the other subsystems of the game.

 

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2265

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

3/11/13 10:31:14 AM#36
Originally posted by MMOExposed
To improve the Sandbox genre, is there something that need to be improved? 

The sandbox.

There are many things that could improve it. Some of those are talked about but haven't been implemented, others haven't been thought of.

For those thinking the sandbox genre is fine as is........well, I think the condition of the vast majority of our current crop tell that story pretty well.

  Elemento

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/27/08
Posts: 62

3/11/13 10:31:31 AM#37

Here's what I don't get..

Why can't a company just remake Ultima Online? Just remake a game loosely based on the Ultima Online formula with better graphics and all the sandboxers out there would be happy.

Am I wrong?

  User Deleted
3/11/13 10:33:17 AM#38
Originally posted by Wraithone

First off, you have to break the connection between forced PvP and the phrase "sand box".  In way too many people, the one implies the other.  That right there, auto niches any game that applies it.  I don't care what type of "new and creative" system the Dev's think they have come up with, if they include forced PvP, the game will auto niche.

It has been demonstrated in game, after game, after game, that including forced PvP, always leads to an endless arms race between the Dev's and the Goonie types. Why? For the same reason that CCP (a VERY pro PvP company) has had to evolve Concord and the high sec rules of engagement.  To protect their business model. 

That soaks up a lot of Dev time/talent and focus, that could be better applied to other areas of the game.

Like it or not, there are a LOT of CareBears out and about, and their money is green. ^^

Once that has been dealt with, then one can move forward with the other subsystems of the game.

 

What have you been on dude? Concord and high sec has been in-game since launch, the only thing they changed which affect "high sec rules of engagement" in the whole of EVE history has been the jump timer with cloak, in the early days if you jumped your ship would show up at the other gate even before you loaded onto that node ergo you could get popped before you even loaded but this was a change to the universal rules of engagement but overall the rules haven't changed much, they made them more easily understood with big red warning signs and a retard friendly "don't shoot shit in high sec/shoot shit in high sec" switch so people don't fall for griefing as much but the mechanics are the same for the most part (you steal someone's shit? they can shoot you for 15 min, someone shoots you? you have kill rights on them, etc,etc, all pretty much the same just that they put in more warnings on what to do if you like your ship).

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

3/11/13 10:42:48 AM#39
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Loktofeit

To reiterate, I'm not saying that no dev records this kind of stuff, only answering the OP's question  - it's one area where sandbox games can do better.

The Great War - not that important, the main opponents never settled their beefs with each other until over half a decade later when Goonswarm with the help of TEST finally eradicated IT alliance which was to be perfectly frank a shadow of BoB that survived the alliance wide assassination.

The Ubiqua Seraph assassination - impressive but did not have much if any of an impact, clones people. As for the theft... those are by no means uncommon and hell one of the EVE-Online player run banks recently (think within the last 6 months) went "yo guys, sorry but your shit is now ours" and I recall the isk in that theft was over a trillion isk.

The Battle of Asakai - major alliances derping each other, the only real kicker of that event was where it took place and why. No real long term effects on anyone besides involved parties (which to be fair were allot of parties).

Burn Jita - Goonswarm being Goons, fun fact I was in Jita during the burn event dropping off loot in a Vengeance, the only thing that pissed me off was the insane time dilation which meant my usual trip within the system took 10 min instead of 6-7.

Hulkaggedon - pretty much dead due to the exhumer/mining barge rebalancing and what it was was basically open season on those two ship types and sometimes missioners as well, someone did try to gank my tengu during a hulkageddon... easiest damn 2 intact plates I've ever made.

Goons Disband - Mittani himself covered this as basically the previous leadership's crowning derp moment, short version: they forgot to pay the bills and their space got repoed, high sec, low sec and null sec everwhere else was not affected.

Attack on Chribba's POS - Love Chribba as he's a decent guy in a game where most major players are jackals but if you think the attack had any impact on anyone besides involved parties you're stretching it.

As I said major events are non-existent in EVE in terms of emergent gameplay as a smart player will have double hell even triple buffers so they don't end up flying an Ibis for 2 weeks getting money (I got 3 redundencies in isk earning potential and each of these redundencies has further backups). The true major events are GM led and while rare they still happen and their effects can be dictated by the players participating (if I am not mistaken the ships classes and types in Incursions were somewhat  influenced at least in terms of naming conventions by the defenders against the initial Sansha Incursions).

I don't know if you're simply stuck on the EVE thing or just looking to argue. If the former, I'm suggesting that sandbox-focused MMOs as a whole could benefit from creating a greater awareness of what the players are doing in the game world, as it not only showcases what the existing players have done but allows other players (new and old) to find out about and get involved in shaping the game world.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Sasami

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/08
Posts: 330

3/11/13 10:44:14 AM#40
Originally posted by Neherun

By giving people a real purpose. See DayZ, a perma-death game that is now in translation to MMO server architecture is thriving. Why? Because that sandbox gave players a goal; Survival. Doesn't matter what the red tape is, people will need it, otherwise they'll feel void in the world.

 

Only that DayZ is hardly MMO in anyway or sandbox MMO at all. Infact new SimCity would be MMO on your point. Generally sandbox MMOs fail because they try to be life simulators, not games. Second Lifes with combat.

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