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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » If you don't like the holy trinity, come up with something better.

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  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4847

3/10/13 11:55:13 PM#121
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by jtcgs

2. Asherons Call was given as a prime example, one that you ignored. He is right, you dont want to hear anything that conflicts with your limited view of the MMO world.

Ok, I never played it, how did AC force you to group in PVE without the trinity?

 It didnt FORCE, and THAT IS THE POINT.

We grouped because we WANTED TO PLAY WITH EACH OTHER. Because it was FUN. Because we had a COMMON GOAL.

Taadaa!

The Holy Trinity is a handicap.

Well, that's not really what I asked, give me a reasonable alternative.

"we group because it's fun" is not a reasonable aternative to the trinity

You are mixing a LOT of different topics into the issue with the trinity. The trinity has nothing to do w/ PvE, PvP, or why you play a game.

All the trinity is, is a specific class dymanic engineered to simplify combat. That being of a tank, healer, and dps. There are alternatives, and pleanty have been given. There are trinity PvP games, just as there are non-trinity PvE games. The trinity-based system also has absolutely nothing to do w/ Zerging. Zerging is a biproduct of herd mentallity, and you get zerging in any game with mass combat whether it has a trinity or not. The only real solution to 'zerging' is a combination of people being intelligent enough to avoid it, as well as a system balanced enough to provide practical counters to large groups.

- The main issue with a trinity-based system, is that it forces people to play with others, because the vast majority of players don't like playing tanks or healers, yet you are reliant on both to play a trinity game. Furthermore, trinity games simplify combat to a very basic lvl. You have essentially 2 roles taking on the responsibility for the group, while the rest spam rotations. Some people like it, but it is flawed, and there are many other games out there that do things differently. Not only have people in this thread provided MMO examples, but there are other games that have already solved this problem outside of the MMO-sphere that haven't been adopted yet.

You can't ask for alternatives, and then refuse to accept them at the same time. That just doesn't make any sense. Lately I've been enjoying GW2, but before there was EvE, plus you have the various FPS MMOs out now that don't rely on a trinity. Which doesn't get into the various other, more traditional MMOs like AC that solved this problem already. None of them are inherently zergy, unless you allow them to be (they leave the choice up to the player), which I don't think is a bad thing.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4916

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/10/13 11:55:51 PM#122
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 why not.  Seems reasonable to me.  There was nothing to force them to group, they just did it because it was fun. 

ok so what was grouping in asheron's call needed for?

 I never played AC so I couldn't tell you if it was better (subjective anyway), or what they did but IMO any game that has it be just for fun is already ahead of the curve.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  CalmOceans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1937

 
OP  3/10/13 11:57:31 PM#123
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 why not.  Seems reasonable to me.  There was nothing to force them to group, they just did it because it was fun. 

ok so what was grouping in asheron's call needed for?

 I never played AC so I couldn't tell you if it was better (subjective anyway), or what they did but IMO any game that has it be just for fun is already ahead of the curve.

Oh, you haven't played AC but supporting him saying AC is better and replaces the trinity.

So we'll hear from him explaining why AC grouping was better. Unless you're telling me he is lying and never played it either.

  Torcip

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 638

3/10/13 11:57:36 PM#124

My biggest issue with the holy trinity has always been the sure moronic stupidity that is threat generation. The easiest way to make tanks viable in PvP and keep your "Holy Trinity" is to do away with the PoS system that is threath generation and have the tank use more innovative ways of keeping the damage off of the squishes.  League of Legends and other MOBAS are great examples of tanks that work in PvP. Pulls, stuns, dazes, silences, damage mitigations, shields, knockbacks.  This is how you can fix the Holy Trinity.

 

TO fix the forced grouping mechanic of needing a healer and a tank to get anything done, it's simple. Allow every class the ability to work as healers and tanks if they spec they're characters that way.  RIFT was pretty good at this. The 4 archetypes all had at least one way to dps, tank, and heal.  Maybe not as effectively as others but if they played well, they good get it done. An important part of this is allwoing you to switch builds and not be heavily item dependant.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4916

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/10/13 11:59:06 PM#125
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 why not.  Seems reasonable to me.  There was nothing to force them to group, they just did it because it was fun. 

ok so what was grouping in asheron's call needed for?

 I never played AC so I couldn't tell you if it was better (subjective anyway), or what they did but IMO any game that has it be just for fun is already ahead of the curve.

Ok, so you haven't played AC but supporting him saying AC is better and replaces the trinity.

So we'll hear from him explaining why AC grouping was better. Unless you're telling me he is lying and never played it either.

 Um no.  I didn't say it was better, I said why not, as in why isn't that a reasonable alternative. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/11/13 12:01:03 AM#126
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by jtcgs

 Yep, thats what I thought.

Your argument is based on nothing tangable. We had no trinity, we didnt NEED a reason to group for anything other than being in fun company...does that make you a sad panda? It should, cause you were being FORCED to play with others by bad game design.

Please, allow me to HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA@you for 8 years of being forced to play with others you may not have even liked!

Ok, explain asheron's call grouping to me then if it's so much better.

 I already did.

We didnt "have to" group, we grouped because we had MORE FUN TOGETHER. Your MMO experience must be pretty sad if you never grouped with people just because its fun to play with them...gawd damn that sounds horrid...a lot like having to be told what your role is by some game developer 1000 miles away that you never met.

Look, I dont actually expect you to understand. Its like GW2, so many people that thought they were leet, the uber doods, the best of the best, logged into that game and just plain couldnt figure it out. They had no definition and because of that, because someone wasnt HOLDING THEIR HAND, they had no idea what to actually do.

There were too many choices. The very idea that they could DPS, heal, CC, tank...all on the same character...their heads filled with "WTF" and they SUCKED.

I however can bunker elementalist 12+ mobs with several elites and walk away fine...I can throw a heal + a hot on my group while still CCing, dropping DoTs, sending in elementals to off tank and switch right back to heals...because my mind isnt trapped in the holy trinity box that some games tried to trap me in after I stopped playing AC1.

I know I can throw a heal and someone if they need it and then switch right back to DPSing or tanking, yes, healing while tanking. Games without the trinity creates SMARTER players, the trinity creates players with few real skills outside of games that allow you to FACEROLL.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  CalmOceans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1937

 
OP  3/11/13 12:01:11 AM#127
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Um no.  I didn't say it was better, I said why not, as in why isn't that a reasonable alternative. 

That's fine, but there's 3 people now who say Asheron's call grouping is better and not a single one who played it. Awesome, this discussion went nowhere fast.

I'll come back when someone actually has a reasonable alternative outside of EVE or game they haven't even played.

  CalmOceans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1937

 
OP  3/11/13 12:01:55 AM#128
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by jtcgs

 Yep, thats what I thought.

Your argument is based on nothing tangable. We had no trinity, we didnt NEED a reason to group for anything other than being in fun company...does that make you a sad panda? It should, cause you were being FORCED to play with others by bad game design.

Please, allow me to HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA@you for 8 years of being forced to play with others you may not have even liked!

Ok, explain asheron's call grouping to me then if it's so much better.

 I already did.

We didnt "have to" group, we grouped because we had MORE FUN TOGETHER. Your MMO experience must be pretty sad if you never grouped with people just because its fun to play with them...gawd damn that sounds horrid...a lot like having to be told what your role is by some game developer 1000 miles away that you never met.

Look, I dont actually expect you to understand. Its like GW2, so many people that thought they were leet, the uber doods, the best of the best, logged into that game and just plain couldnt figure it out. They had no definition and because of that, because someone wasnt HOLDING THEIR HAND, they had no idea what to actually do.

There were too many choices. The very idea that they could DPS, heal, CC, tank...all on the same character...their heads filled with "WTF" and they SUCKED.

I however can bunker elementalist 12+ mobs with several elites and walk away fine...I can throw a heal + a hot on my group while still CCing, dropping DoTs, sending in elementals to off tank and switch right back to heals...because my mind isnt trapped in the holy trinity box that some games tried to trap me in after I stopped playing AC1.

I know I can throw a heal and someone if they need it and then switch right back to DPSing or tanking, yes, healing while tanking. Games without the trinity creates SMARTER players, the trinity creates players with few real skills outside of games that allow you to FACEROLL.

Did you play AC, truthfully?

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4916

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/11/13 12:04:22 AM#129
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Um no.  I didn't say it was better, I said why not, as in why isn't that a reasonable alternative. 

That's fine, but there's 3 people now who say Asheron's call grouping is better and not a single one who played it. Awesome, this discussion went nowhere fast.

I'll come back when someone actually has a reasonable alternative outside of EVE or game they haven't even played.

 I gave you 4 or 5 examples of games that either didn't have trinity or had more than 3 roles, or ways of customizing them.  And Eve is a valid alternative.

All I know about AC was it was very successfull game, it had housing and it was skillbased.  In terms of deciding if thats a reasonable alternative I don't need to know anymore than that

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/11/13 12:06:20 AM#130
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by jtcgs

 I already did.

We didnt "have to" group, we grouped because we had MORE FUN TOGETHER. Your MMO experience must be pretty sad if you never grouped with people just because its fun to play with them...gawd damn that sounds horrid...a lot like having to be told what your role is by some game developer 1000 miles away that you never met.

Look, I dont actually expect you to understand. Its like GW2, so many people that thought they were leet, the uber doods, the best of the best, logged into that game and just plain couldnt figure it out. They had no definition and because of that, because someone wasnt HOLDING THEIR HAND, they had no idea what to actually do.

There were too many choices. The very idea that they could DPS, heal, CC, tank...all on the same character...their heads filled with "WTF" and they SUCKED.

I however can bunker elementalist 12+ mobs with several elites and walk away fine...I can throw a heal + a hot on my group while still CCing, dropping DoTs, sending in elementals to off tank and switch right back to heals...because my mind isnt trapped in the holy trinity box that some games tried to trap me in after I stopped playing AC1.

I know I can throw a heal and someone if they need it and then switch right back to DPSing or tanking, yes, healing while tanking. Games without the trinity creates SMARTER players, the trinity creates players with few real skills outside of games that allow you to FACEROLL.

Did you play AC, truthfully?

 Dont bother replying, nothing anyone says is going to matter to you, you will just make up so new rule that dismisses it.

Or should I play your game...did you really play EQ1? I mean, just having the trinity isnt reason enough to group, did you really play? Tell me something REASONABLE first because I dont see how just having the trinity alone is a reason to group when I have played so many others where we grouped because we actually LIKED EACH OTHER AND HAD FUN!

Give me something reasonable...

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  CalmOceans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1937

 
OP  3/11/13 12:11:03 AM#131
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Did you play AC, truthfully?

 Dont bother replying, nothing anyone says is going to matter to you, you will just make up so new rule that dismisses it.

Or should I play your game...did you really play EQ1? I mean, just having the trinity isnt reason enough to group, did you really play? Tell me something REASONABLE first because I dont see how just having the trinity alone is a reason to group when I have played so many others where we grouped because we actually LIKED EACH OTHER AND HAD FUN!

Give me something reasonable...

Yes, I played EQ since kunark, I have a warrior with 1.0, 1,5, and 2.0 and my demiplane flag made it 2,5. I wielded it with my BBOB all through Omens and DoD until I upgraded it in Ashengate. Everyone who knows EQ now knows I played it.

But you never played AC but said you did, you can say nothing about AC except that it was fun.

Next time don't get caught lying with your pants down.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/11/13 12:13:53 AM#132
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Yes, I played EQ since kunark, I have a warrior with 1.0, 1,5, and 2.0 and my demiplane flag made it 2,5. I wielded it with my BBOB all through Omens and DoD until I upgraded it in Ashengate. Everyone who knows EQ now knows I played it.

But you never played AC but said you did, you can say nothing about AC except that it was fun.

Next time don't get caught lying with your pants down.

 I said something reasonable. No amount of people knowing you played is a reasonable reason to group. Nor is having a warrior with a flag a reasonable reason.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 297

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

3/11/13 12:18:10 AM#133
Originally posted by Torcip

My biggest issue with the holy trinity has always been the sure moronic stupidity that is threat generation. The easiest way to make tanks viable in PvP and keep your "Holy Trinity" is to do away with the PoS system that is threath generation and have the tank use more innovative ways of keeping the damage off of the squishes.  League of Legends and other MOBAS are great examples of tanks that work in PvP. Pulls, stuns, dazes, silences, damage mitigations, shields, knockbacks.  This is how you can fix the Holy Trinity.

 

TO fix the forced grouping mechanic of needing a healer and a tank to get anything done, it's simple. Allow every class the ability to work as healers and tanks if they spec they're characters that way.  RIFT was pretty good at this. The 4 archetypes all had at least one way to dps, tank, and heal.  Maybe not as effectively as others but if they played well, they good get it done. An important part of this is allwoing you to switch builds and not be heavily item dependant.

Exactly.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

3/11/13 12:19:07 AM#134
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Did you play AC, truthfully?

He may be (intentionally or not) a little bit disingenuous about 'we only grouped for fun'.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5473014#5473014, Post 4, from 2006.

I have no AC or AC2 experience, at all.

But those early games were remarkably different (just in feel) from a modern loot-driven mmo, in ways that aren't always easy to describe. You can't write it off with a pat answer, either.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/11/13 12:27:18 AM#135
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Did you play AC, truthfully?

He may be (intentionally or not) a little bit disingenuous about 'we only grouped for fun'.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5473014#5473014, Post 4, from 2006.

I have no AC or AC2 experience, at all.

But those early games were remarkably different (just in feel) from a modern loot-driven mmo, in ways that aren't always easy to describe. You can't write it off with a pat answer, either.

 Clearly...

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5599423#5599423

But I do love the link talking about a game 12 YEARS after its release. AC1 was not always a bot fest, that came over 5 years later.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

3/11/13 12:36:58 AM#136
Originally posted by jtcgs

 Clearly...

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5599423#5599423

But I do love the link talking about a game 12 YEARS after its release. AC1 was not always a bot fest, that came over 5 years later.

What do you expect to see? We're living a decade later (though some obviously are still firmly stuck back there)

:shake head: and yes, I did read that 06 date wrong. I am sorry about that one.

If forums run true to form, 3 dozen users will now point out my error, with glee.

  Ballsout

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/16/10
Posts: 86

3/11/13 12:37:27 AM#137
Take the game mechanics of Runescape, and combine with the immersion and polish of WoW. 

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/11/13 12:40:55 AM#138
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by jtcgs

 Clearly...

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5599423#5599423

But I do love the link talking about a game 12 YEARS after its release. AC1 was not always a bot fest, that came over 5 years later.

What do you expect to see? We're living a decade later (though some obviously are still firmly stuck back there)

:shake head: and yes, I did read that 06 date wrong. I am sorry about that one.

If forums run true to form, 3 dozen users will now point out my error, with glee.

 ...so, a guy is talking about proof the Trinity is important because of EQ1 back in the day, is asking for proof otherwise, so games are given, but we are supposed to go by how the game is today.

Ok, thanks for playing...seriously...no amount of bots today has to do with what it was like before, thus has no bearing on what is being said here.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

3/11/13 12:44:06 AM#139
Originally posted by jtcgs

Ok, thanks for playing...seriously...no amount of bots today has to do with what it was like before, thus has no bearing on what is being said here.

And nothing you say, 10 years later, does either; right? Or are we going to keep leaning on appeal to authority anyway?

What am I saying? Of course that's your prerogative, and you two can keep playing badminton for several more pages.

G'night ya'll.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/11/13 12:48:51 AM#140
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by jtcgs

Ok, thanks for playing...seriously...no amount of bots today has to do with what it was like before, thus has no bearing on what is being said here.

And nothing you say, 10 years later, does either; right? Or are we going to keep leaning on appeal to authority anyway?

 Nice red herring.

He asked for proof people group without the trinity. He got it, we grouped without the trinity when we were playing, no amount of time passing or game changing is going to take that away...Hey, SWG is no longer running, I guess everything everyone ever experienced in the game never happened because people are no longer experiencing anything in it.

amidoinitrite?

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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