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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "I want to play an MMORPG, but..."

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150 posts found
  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

3/10/13 11:41:55 AM#21
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Really? I get the exact opposite feeling from these boards.

I think this board represents a vocal minority.

Of that, I have no doubt.

Actually, they more represent what is known in business as "enthusiasts", and your enthusiasts are often the people start and lead trends.  Smart businesses pay close attention to these people.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

3/10/13 11:44:45 AM#22
Originally posted by Calerxes

No they are the majority of gamers, not unhappy forum posters and thats where the money is. So who would you aim you new MMO at? a bunch of MMO vets who cannot agree on what makes a good game and are always moving the goalposts or a bunch of casual players that will buy your game in the millions?

These would be the same casuals who show up in millions on launch, then mostly head back to whatever game they came from in a month anyway.  So I think it hardly matters;  no matter what I do, the initial box sales thrive off hype and the long-term numbers* stay in the niche-market range.

Given that, if I'm going to make an MMO I'll make the one I wanted to play so at least when it inevitably contracts I can still look at myself in the mirror.

 

*Edit: that's long-term paying numbers.  I could pad the population by going F2P, but this simply lets a minority of paying customers subsidize a larger group of non-payers to keep the server-population up.  Number of people putting money into the game doesn't change too much there, just some are putting in more.

  jonesing22

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/01/10
Posts: 681

3/10/13 12:09:54 PM#23
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Axehilt

Players want a good game.  MMORPGs can be good games.

  • Nothing about that implies travel has to be tedious.  Tedious travel is simply bad design.
  • Nothing about it implies combat has to be stationary.  The only thing implied is a light (at best) twitch skill component, since that's a defining trait of RPGs and part of what makes them successful with their demographic.
  • Acrobatic fullplate is pretty rarely requested, but certainly I'd have a lot less fun in WOW if I wasn't able to charge and heroic leap to zip all over like a maniac. If you took it away without replacing it with an equally deep and skill-rewarding set of gameplay mechanics, you'd be net negative in terms of fun.
  • Instant dungeon teleport?  Again, tedious travel is bad design.
  • Instancing to allow the world to show impact is great, but obviously can't be the entire experience or must remain a shared MMO experience (as with phasing and cross-realm PVE areas.)  Honestly the instanced parts of MMORPGs feel far more "RPG" than the non-instanced ones.
  • Saving the universe is perfectly fine if it fits the game's aesthetic.  The aesthetic of doing heroic things appeals to people more than being a shit-covered peasant...for some reason.
  • Mandatory downtime is usually bad design, but depends on how it's paced.  The ideal is to let the player be in control: it's up to them whether to pursue content nonstop or sit in town socializing.  
All you have to have to be an MMORPG is a shared persistent online world with lots of players, some form of progression, some form of narrative, and not too much twitch.

     When you say bad design, don't you really mean "in my opinion"?   I view things differently.. To me any game that allows instant travel to anywhere in the world by anyone is too unbelievable even in a fantasy world.. IMO, Original EQ had the best form of travel for players.. Combat should be somewhat stationary.. A person in full plate leaping 30 feet while doing 20 somersaults is just silly.. Instancing is bad design IMO.. I play mmo's to be in a social world, whereas instancing just puts you into private rooms.. You might as well just go play Xbox then.. Everyone is a superhero?  Really?  This is more console game thinking of everyone needs to be a hero.. When I first stated playing AD&D in the 80's I did not play it to be a HERO.. I was just a normal run of the mill druid having fund with friends..  This didn't change when I started EQ in 1999.. I was no hero and had no desire to be a hero.. Everyone I played with was pretty much the same way.. Manditory downtime such as meditating, town trips for food/drink and supplies was great.. I remember teaching languages which was a good concept..

     From where I sit.. the new MMO genre is just too selfish and demanding, and have little clue how to be normal.. It seems everyone wants to be "special"..... oooooof

completely agree here. You can't decide whether you want to be evil or good anymore. The only way to be evil in todays mmos is ganking the other faction or getting reported for harrassment.......trophy generation, shame

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

3/10/13 12:18:44 PM#24
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

When I read the forums, I get this feeling from the majority posters: "I want to play an MMORPG, but..."

"...I don't want a massive world that takes forever and a day to traverse."
"...I don't want to stand there swinging my sword."
"...I want my heavily armored warrior to be able to do acrobatics in full plate."
"...I want mini-games galore, for almost everything I do."
"...I want to click a button and be instantly transported to the dungeon I just threw my name onto a list for."
"...I want massive amounts of instancing so that I feel like what I do affects the world."
"...I want massive instancing so that I don't have to worry about other players spoiling my gaming experience."
"...I want to be able to turn off chat."
"...I want to be told a story where my character saves the universe."
"...I want to be able to jump online for the 15-30 minutes I have free and gain something useful."
"...I don't want downtime where I feel like I have to converse with others. I have friends IRL, thank you."

All I can ask is, Do these players really want to play MMORPGs?

I dont even know why people bother playing mmorpgs to be honest. Whats the point, think they miss the reason behind mmorpgs. Now it feels like you are playing your average console rpg and that to me is sad. 

That is what makes a mmorpg fun, and the good thing about mmorpgs (well use to be) is that you dont have to take part in everything the game offers. But now mmorpgs are so dumbed down it just doesnt feel like a mmorpg any longer.

 

Couldnt imagine playing D&D from 20 years ago like mmorpgs are played today :/

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19158

3/10/13 12:39:35 PM#25
Originally posted by Onomas
 

I dont even know why people bother playing mmorpgs to be honest. Whats the point, think they miss the reason behind mmorpgs. Now it feels like you are playing your average console rpg and that to me is sad. 

The point is that MMORPGs are more like online CRPG, and that is what people are looking for. If MMOs are all like EQ or UO, you think i will be bother with it?

And before you ask why i don't just play SP RPGs .. i do .. but why shouldn't I play some MMOs when they are like the kind of games i like? If MMO devs can attract players who don't like the old traditional MMOs, more power to them.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4488

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

3/10/13 12:46:31 PM#26

my engineering failure modes professor told me:

 

a shaft comes in standard dimensions. One is 1.375 inches. if you do the math and discover you need a shaft at least 1.289 inches and there's no super-tight clearance, just toss in th 1.375 one. if you go to the machinist and ask him to shave a 1.375 down to 1.289, he'll grab the nearest blunt object and hit you with it until he can't lift his arm anymore.

 

or more simply...

 

"I want my steak medium-rare. No pink. "

 

the word's full of it. because someone wants it doesn't mean you should try to give it to him.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

3/10/13 12:46:48 PM#27
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

When I read the forums, I get this feeling from the majority posters: "I want to play an MMORPG, but..."

"...I don't want a massive world that takes forever and a day to traverse."
"...I don't want to stand there swinging my sword."
"...I want my heavily armored warrior to be able to do acrobatics in full plate."
"...I want mini-games galore, for almost everything I do."
"...I want to click a button and be instantly transported to the dungeon I just threw my name onto a list for."
"...I want massive amounts of instancing so that I feel like what I do affects the world."
"...I want massive instancing so that I don't have to worry about other players spoiling my gaming experience."
"...I want to be able to turn off chat."
"...I want to be told a story where my character saves the universe."
"...I want to be able to jump online for the 15-30 minutes I have free and gain something useful."
"...I don't want downtime where I feel like I have to converse with others. I have friends IRL, thank you."

All I can ask is, Do these players really want to play MMORPGs?

It's mostly Nariusseldon posting an insane amount of times.

  CalmOceans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1803

3/10/13 12:51:48 PM#28
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Nah .. they are more like bitter whiners who don't like anything.

That would be the new generation who whines every time a class is unbalanced, who whines when they need to travel 2 feet, who whines when they have 5 minuted downtime, who whines when there is a death penalty, who whines you need to group, etc

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

3/10/13 12:52:12 PM#29
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Really? I get the exact opposite feeling from these boards.

I think this board represents a vocal minority.

Of that, I have no doubt.

Actually, they more represent what is known in business as "enthusiasts", and your enthusiasts are often the people start and lead trends.  Smart businesses pay close attention to these people.

Nah .. they are more like bitter whiners who don't like anything.

You keep telling yourself that, and you can pretend the current MMO market isn't moving in the exact direction the "whiners" on this site have been saying it would for the past 4 years or so.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Doogiehowser

Elite Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1930

3/10/13 12:53:34 PM#30
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Really? I get the exact opposite feeling from these boards.

I think this board represents a vocal minority.

Vocal minority on both fronts or vocal minority as in those who disagree with me?  for example 'WOW ruined MMOS and everything is just a casual fest these days and if you disagree with what i say you are vocal minority'.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

3/10/13 12:55:07 PM#31
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Really? I get the exact opposite feeling from these boards.

I think this board represents a vocal minority.

Of that, I have no doubt.

Actually, they more represent what is known in business as "enthusiasts", and your enthusiasts are often the people start and lead trends.  Smart businesses pay close attention to these people.

Nah .. they are more like bitter whiners who don't like anything.

You keep telling yourself that, and you can pretend the current MMO market isn't moving in the exact direction the "whiners" on this site have been saying it would for the past 4 years or so.

 Im one of those guys ;) And i love the fact so many sandbox style games are coming along this next few years :)

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1294

3/10/13 12:55:25 PM#32

To be honest, Alot of those things are situational.  for instance

 

"I want to be able to turn off chat" Example of when its a good thing, Barrens chat.

"i Want mini games galore" When you hit max level you get a choice of either playing once a week or Re rolling. For the themepark atleast, Sandbox doesnt really have that issue

"Instantly Teleported to Dungeon" If your gonna have a LFG tool, you might aswell have this.

"Character Save the Universe" I've come to the conclusion that the only good thing SWTOR did in my opinion was the reroll factor. Honestly i've never gotten 2 characters to max on the same account, its boring to do the same thing over again. Atleast with SWTOR, you have a new (and possibly good or bad) Story to tide you over abit.

"Massive World" Some games having the massive seamless world is a great thing, some games can benefit from it greatly. Others cant, This all comes down to Lore. WoW is a world in a constant state of war on multiple fronts with multiple enemies. TSW is a World where bad shit is happening in select areas. The planet your on is also earth. If you were to correctly Code earth into the game it would take Days if not months in order to get anywhere. Lets not even think about the file size.

"stand there and swing my sword" i agree with how annoying this is. However less and less companies are actually doing this anymore.

 

The others well... i agree with being dumb responses. This also only really applies to Themepark, Sandbox plays by its own rules.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  CalmOceans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1803

3/10/13 12:56:15 PM#33
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Really? I get the exact opposite feeling from these boards.

I think this board represents a vocal minority.

Vocal minority on both fronts or these people are considered vocal minority only when they disagree with what you say?

I'm saying that people who want meaningful travel, forced grouping, death penalties, class unbalance, downtime, are a minority, even though I'm one of them,

Vanguard was an eye-opener for me, the first game after Everquest that had some unbalance in classes, that had a death penalty and meaningful travel.

What did half of the players do, whine non-stop to make it eaiser until developer caved right at launch

Even though every person knew going into Vanguard that it would involve having to walk long distances, still half of the playerbase whined.

  eddieg50

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/22/05
Posts: 1473

3/10/13 12:58:29 PM#34
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Really? I get the exact opposite feeling from these boards.

I think this board represents a vocal minority.

  Agreed!

  zomard100

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 232

3/10/13 1:01:31 PM#35
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Can't wait to see thousands of WoW players give their opinion on EQNext.

Current MMO are nothing like they were before, everything starting with WoW completely changed MMO into a casual gaming experience, if I started with WoW instead of EQ I would have probably have the same idea as them about MMO.

Some thing are better, but so much is worse too.

U serious about EQNext??  You wan't see thousands of wow player posting on game like EQ, maybe some better title like TESO could be interesting for wow players but EQ  arghhh...

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2904

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

 
OP  3/10/13 1:03:52 PM#36

Going to reply to a few posts all in one. I'm lazy :)


Originally posted by Calerxes
I find it ironic that instant teleportation was in EQ at release and they also expanded it to be accessible by all players in the Planes of Power expac in 2002 but WoW only had that latter type of instant teleport when Burning Crusade was launched in 2006 and only in Shatrath, all other transport was from Bat, Griffon, underground railway and Zepplin. Though my Lock could, with the aid of others, pull players to outside dungeons from anywhere in the world.

Yes, EQ did, but that was limited to 2 (out of 14) character classes (Wizards and Druids), which players had to "beg" the service from, and one teleportation ability to go wherever a player set their "soulbind" at (usually a major city). Dieing cost a player too much to use it as a fast travel option. Today's fast travel is simply clicking on a way point for a few copper or dieing. There is no interaction with other players (the multi-player part of MMO) involved, which is why I dislike fast travel today.

@WhiteLantern: Yes, there are plenty of "MMOs today SUCK!" threads. And each and every one gets refuted by many, many posters. I think us "disgruntled" players have nothing to play in the MMO genre to keep us busy, so we post and moan here :) Maybe things would quiet down if there was a MMORPG worth playing?

@Axehilt: I agree with your distinction between boring and fun. Since almost everyone defines these aspects differently, the majority wins. Many players find being lost the most terrible gameplay catastrophe while a few others make the most of it and find adventure. Many players cannot get enough of combat. If they fight every 25 yards, they are happy while a few others would like to be able to pick and choose a little more when they fight. Some players can spend hours decorating a home for their player to live in, in their online world, while many others find that the most boring and wasteful aspect of fun wondering why developers don't spend those resources on making more monsters to fight.

@Wraithone: I agree that a game like would sell millions :) They already have :)

@nariusseldon: Yes, I am a "bitter whiner" because players who never liked MMOROGs in the first place have taken away the virtual world because they find them boring and "un-fun." We have no replacement for them. Give me a game with a real virtual (can I use those two words in succession?) world and I'll quit complaining :) I wonder what you'd think if your favorite Mystery genre books all of sudden went to Romance novels genre with very few Mystery books ever written by so-so writers...

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Doogiehowser

Elite Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1930

3/10/13 1:04:35 PM#37
Originally posted by zomard100
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Can't wait to see thousands of WoW players give their opinion on EQNext.

Current MMO are nothing like they were before, everything starting with WoW completely changed MMO into a casual gaming experience, if I started with WoW instead of EQ I would have probably have the same idea as them about MMO.

Some thing are better, but so much is worse too.

U serious about EQNext??  You wan't see thousands of wow player posting on game like EQ, maybe some better title like TESO could be interesting for wow players but EQ  arghhh...

EQ2 follows the WOW formula and was even changed to the effect after success of WOW. You make it sound as if EQ players are so drasticaly different from that of WOW players. 

 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Auzy

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/04
Posts: 612

3/10/13 1:04:49 PM#38
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by ellobo29
When I read the forums...... i say to myself.. "AAAHHHHhhhhh the internets... where everybody and there pet gerbil thinks that they have an opinion AND THAT IT MATTERS FOR SOMETHING....

Including you?... ^^

Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one. ^^  I suspect that someone who came up with a game with many of those traits would find a good sized audience.

I lost mine...in a tragic fishing accident....

Uhh... what?

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/10/13 1:06:01 PM#39
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Axehilt

Players want a good game.  MMORPGs can be good games.

  • Nothing about that implies travel has to be tedious.  Tedious travel is simply bad design.
  • Nothing about it implies combat has to be stationary.  The only thing implied is a light (at best) twitch skill component, since that's a defining trait of RPGs and part of what makes them successful with their demographic.
  • Acrobatic fullplate is pretty rarely requested, but certainly I'd have a lot less fun in WOW if I wasn't able to charge and heroic leap to zip all over like a maniac. If you took it away without replacing it with an equally deep and skill-rewarding set of gameplay mechanics, you'd be net negative in terms of fun.
  • Instant dungeon teleport?  Again, tedious travel is bad design.
  • Instancing to allow the world to show impact is great, but obviously can't be the entire experience or must remain a shared MMO experience (as with phasing and cross-realm PVE areas.)  Honestly the instanced parts of MMORPGs feel far more "RPG" than the non-instanced ones.
  • Saving the universe is perfectly fine if it fits the game's aesthetic.  The aesthetic of doing heroic things appeals to people more than being a shit-covered peasant...for some reason.
  • Mandatory downtime is usually bad design, but depends on how it's paced.  The ideal is to let the player be in control: it's up to them whether to pursue content nonstop or sit in town socializing.  
All you have to have to be an MMORPG is a shared persistent online world with lots of players, some form of progression, some form of narrative, and not too much twitch.

     When you say bad design, don't you really mean "in my opinion"?   I view things differently.. To me any game that allows instant travel to anywhere in the world by anyone is too unbelievable even in a fantasy world.. IMO, Original EQ had the best form of travel for players.. Combat should be somewhat stationary.. A person in full plate leaping 30 feet while doing 20 somersaults is just silly.. Instancing is bad design IMO.. I play mmo's to be in a social world, whereas instancing just puts you into private rooms.. You might as well just go play Xbox then.. Everyone is a superhero?  Really?  This is more console game thinking of everyone needs to be a hero.. When I first stated playing AD&D in the 80's I did not play it to be a HERO.. I was just a normal run of the mill druid having fund with friends..  This didn't change when I started EQ in 1999.. I was no hero and had no desire to be a hero.. Everyone I played with was pretty much the same way.. Manditory downtime such as meditating, town trips for food/drink and supplies was great.. I remember teaching languages which was a good concept..

     From where I sit.. the new MMO genre is just too selfish and demanding, and have little clue how to be normal.. It seems everyone wants to be "special"..... oooooof

I don't really mean "in my opinion" because I also wouldn't call Physical Torture in a game bad design "in my opinion", because there's a chance of somebody wanting that too. But I understand (a) the pysiological and psychological reasons players play games and (b) what games have done well over the last 25 years.  So I can safely say it's bad game design without quantifying "in my opinion".

Non-gameplay, tedious travel is simply not why players choose to play games.  They play games because their brains delight in learning, and games offer a huge spread of new patterns to solve.  Tedious travel is therefore not very nutricious food for their brains to consume, because the patterns involved are minimal (and mostly revolve around learning how to avoid killing oneself on long, tedious trips; but another lesson they're capable of teaching is "don't enter into a long, tedious trip if another vacation destination is right at your doorstep!")

This is not about console vs. PC gaming.  MMORPGs without a focus on fun are solitary games.  They're alone amongst games designed fun-first.

They're even alone amongst MMORPGs, because the most successful MMORPGs are fun-first designs.

Overwhelmingly PC gaming is successful for the same fun-focused reasons as any other game, console or otherwise.

  User Deleted
3/10/13 1:16:24 PM#40
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Really? I get the exact opposite feeling from these boards.

I think this board represents a vocal minority.

Absolutely.

 

Most people play whatever game interests them and they keep their mouth shut about it.

Unhappy people come here to complain because they have a need to infect other people with their unhappiness.

OCD people come here to start fights because, well...that's what OCD people do.

Teens (physically and mentally) come here to try and shock people with their words, mainly because their parents never really gave a shit when they tried to shock them with 666 tattooed on their foreheads and Aleister Crowley books strewn about their rooms. You can tell those people by their handles.

It all boils down to the fact that gaming forums are the trailer parks and meth houses of the genre.

It is fun watching (and sometimes pushing along) the train-wreck, however. :P

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