Trending Games | World of Warcraft | WildStar | Dragon Age: Inquisition | EverQuest

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,905,308 Users Online:0
Games:757  Posts:6,293,473
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » If you don't like the holy trinity, come up with something better.

10 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
190 posts found
  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

3/10/13 11:42:32 AM#41
Originally posted by Deathage

Blending all classes into a formless blob of dps and heals is not the answer, at least not if you want to promote a dedicated, intelligent playerbase at the high end.

Let's be sure we're following this properly--premise: specialist roles yield complexity.

The greater the number of specialist roles, the more complex the game is? (This premise just might yield a result greater than 3, by the way).

Reduction to absurdity, of course, is to point out that at the ultimate level of specialization, each player is responsible for using a single ability in a party. That sounds complex as hell from a logistical standpoint (herding these 300 cats though an instance), but horribly simple from an individual standpoint ("I cast "fireball" twice per run, otherwise just suck my thumb and collect loot").

Reduction to absurdity in the opposite direction; a single generalist character capable of every ability in the game.  The Self-contained TankMageHealer. I think most people can (try) to explain why tankmages are historically recognized as bad for RPGs.

Sounds like no pat answer applies.

  Deathage

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/12/10
Posts: 141

Wannafightaboutit?

3/10/13 12:12:16 PM#42
Originally posted by Antiquated
Reduction to absurdity, of course, is to point out that at the ultimate level of specialization, each player is responsible for using a single ability in a party. That sounds complex as hell from a logistical standpoint (herding these 300 cats though an instance), but horribly simple from an individual standpoint ("I cast "fireball" twice per run, otherwise just suck my thumb and collect loot").

Reduction to absurdity in the opposite direction; a single generalist character capable of every ability in the game.  The Self-contained TankMageHealer. I think most people can (try) to explain why tankmages are historically recognized as bad for RPGs.

Sounds like no pat answer applies.

Agreed. As someone said earlier in this topic, there is more than one way to skin a cat. But, as you said, the ultimate level of specialization in the direction of the trinity as you reasoned it was absurd, and is not what I or I think anyone else is advocating. However, the reduction in the opposite direction, ala GW2, has been implemented. What I am advocating is the creation of secondary benefits within the greater scope of the class's specialization/role. While not necessarily vital to the completion of the dungeon/raid, they may be desirable in a certain situation.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6103

3/10/13 12:21:18 PM#43

I think the Trinity is not the problem but how its implemented is.

Rift does it right, the fact that you can switch your build from fight to fight as more tanky, more healer or more DPS depending on soul combinations, to me thats the way to go. Obviously Rifts system is not perfect but its a step in the right direction of giving all players the opportunity to participate as multiple roles.

  JRRNeiklot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/03/11
Posts: 106

3/10/13 12:27:05 PM#44
Originally posted by CalmOceans

I see some people complain about the holy trinity.

That's fine, but realise that the holy trinity from Everquest, which was based on D&D, created one of the most successful MMO communities ever, a community that grouped and was much stronger than the fast-paced action games we see now.

So people who say

"the trinity is boring, we need something new"

That's great, but unless you are able to offer something as compelling as the trinity then I'll remain playing games with a trinity.

Don't fix what isn't broken.

D&D never had a holy trinity.  A party with 4 magic users is just as viable as one with 4 fighters.  I have never understood why this has to be different in mmos.

  Mawnee

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/16/12
Posts: 185

3/10/13 12:32:28 PM#45

 

 

ASHERONS CALL

 

 

This game threw out the holy trinity yet people grouped. You could have any combination of skills you wanted. When grouped everyone DPSd, everyone healed, everyone tanked. People had completely individual builds yet still needed numbers to accomplish goals/quests. No "raid" or quest required X tanks, X healers, X DPS ect. It also allowed groups larger than 6......

While this game was not a smashing sucess as measured by subscription numbers. Anytime this game is mentioned you hear nothing but rave reviews of people who played it for YEARS(not weeks/months). If only it had a better graphics engine......

 

 

  Dexter2010

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/12
Posts: 153

3/10/13 12:34:07 PM#46
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Dexter2010
Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't use the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

I agree. I like Rift's idea of every class can fill all roles and the early days of GW1 where healers can fully dps. I want to be a dps-ing tank/healer or some sort of hybtid that excels in 2 roles. I want to form parties where you can replace a fulltime healer with 2 semi-healers. Soloability is good too...

How is the trinity not broken? You beg or wait an hour for a tank to enter a 15 min dungeon then find out he's undergeared or no good and he's got a God complex. People steal gear -your gear- outside their role. The trinity restricts gameplay and makes for more grinding. Wanna tank instead of healing? Need on the tank's gear and people shout Ninja before kicking you. Wanna dps a raid with defence gear cause that's all you got? You like being pigeon holed for being best geared healer? You like people rolling need on everything cause they have 3 specs?

Well to be fair, that's not really the trinity's fault, that's the fault of dev's who think there can only be one kind of loot distribution system.  Why not have a system that allows progression but also one like GW2's where everyone gets loot from a chest?  Hey maybe it's not what you wanted, but you can always try again, just like any raid, but the chances of you getting something increase exponentially. 

In addition to that, I guess maybe you could also spawn different gear based on what spec you're in at the time.  The whole Need roll is the problem in my opinion, not the trinity, though that's a bit broken itself.

This alone would solve countless problems and I've asked for it for years but WoW won't even consider it.

That would be an imperfect idea as getting initial gear could be problematic.

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/10/13 12:34:28 PM#47
Take a page from online ARPG grouping. Many of those do NOT use the trinity.
  Aison2

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 613

3/10/13 12:47:03 PM#48
Originally posted by Antiquated
in the opposite direction; a single generalist character capable of every ability in the game.  The Self-contained TankMageHealer. I think most people can (try) to explain why tankmages are historically recognized as bad for RPGs.

 

A tankmagehealer is not really bad if done right.
 What adds depth to it is making abilities effictiveness highly situational. Obviously noone plays a six-handed god who can multitask all roles at the same time. What a group of tankmagehealer players does is play holy trinity by situation: the person who gets attacked goes into tankmode, the rest divides themselve into dps and healer, some might even switch between depending on need.  Ideally the fight is highly dynamic with mobs switching targets, silencing schools which forces to switch to another role , or simply going into x dps or group wipes to force all playing offensive.

Think like switching to different stances depending on if you get attacked , a friend gets attacked and you need to heal him or you got your hands free and can go into dps mode.

 

Most current holy trinity games already implement this albeit in a form where the primary choosen role is much stronger then the others.
 

Pi*1337/100 = 42

  Giffen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/28/04
Posts: 240

3/10/13 12:50:00 PM#49

The bottom line is the "holy trinity" is just another way of saying classes are specialized.  This type of play only comes in games that stress group play over soloing.  EQ had CC on top of Heals, Tank, DPS, but again all were specializations for specific classes, but it wasn't a holy trinity.

 

Soloers want to be able to do it all...have a party in their pants so to speak..so they aren't dependent on anyone else in game.  But this type of mindset is what has made MMOs crap IMHO.  People play the game to solo and have a chat box to entertain themselves in these games.  "Forced grouping" MMOs end up being much richer due to the social element of actually having to work as a group with people that may be located all over the globe to solve in game challenges.  This social interaction is what leads to friendships and a hook to keep players wanting to log in. 

 

The MMORPG genre needs more specialized classes "forced grouping" games as the industry if just full of solofest games..very few left that require good group play to advance in game.

  JRRNeiklot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/03/11
Posts: 106

3/10/13 1:01:36 PM#50
Originally posted by Giffen

The bottom line is the "holy trinity" is just another way of saying classes are specialized.  This type of play only comes in games that stress group play over soloing.

Wrong.  Again, Tabletop games don't have a holy trinity and they stress grouping.  MMOS sprang out of D&D, so why must they have a trinity?  I have never heard any valid reason why.  Some game designer decided it would be a good idea and it works, but why must EVERY game follow that model? 

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/10/13 1:04:35 PM#51
Originally posted by JRRNeiklot
Originally posted by Giffen

The bottom line is the "holy trinity" is just another way of saying classes are specialized.  This type of play only comes in games that stress group play over soloing.

Wrong.  Again, Tabletop games don't have a holy trinity and they stress grouping.  MMOS sprang out of D&D, so why must they have a trinity?  I have never heard any valid reason why.  Some game designer decided it would be a good idea and it works, but why must EVERY game follow that model? 

Tabletop games are for small groups. MMOs are not. So what if MMOs sprang out of D&D. Things changed. Video games sprang out of Pong. Do you see many similarities between Pong and games you play today?

Now, i do agree there is no reason why trinity is needed in all games. But D&D is not the reason. There are obviously other combat mechanics that will work in a MMO setting. For example, FPS.

  CalmOceans

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1914

 
OP  3/10/13 1:09:17 PM#52
Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"
EQ did have a strict holy trinity, in fact that's where the name comes from, it was Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter.
Highly unbalanced classes compared to other classes. It was called that because they were powerfull classes, something peple now would scream bloody murder for because they were extremely unbalanced classes, which is actually good up to a point. You want your classes to be specialised and slightly unbalanced.
People later changed this to Tanks, Healer, DPS even though the Enchanter is CC. Which for me is the same thing, 3 specialised base classes you build a group around.


2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.
PVP players need to start realising that specialised unbalanced classes are the reason people group. If you make everyone a jack of all trades like some PVP players ask for every time, you end up with the current solo games mistakingly called MMO.


4) D&D doesn't use the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*
I never said D&D did the trinity.
 

 

  Dexter2010

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/12
Posts: 153

3/10/13 1:17:15 PM#53
Originally posted by chelan

its so sad. some of you guys should just find a good 3.5 tabletop campaign and experience it.

I haven't had a good PnP experience since the early '90s. A former friend started a DnD club in university and pleaded 'til I joined. Most members cared more about stuffing snacks in their faces than playing and they took three 3 hour sessions to pick a class.

  Tinea

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/27/03
Posts: 73

3/10/13 1:30:39 PM#54

The holy trinity is boring because it puts you into roles where, for the most part, you can stand in one place and spam the skill you're supposed to spam (taunt, heal, damage).  Sure, some games (especially in raids) make you move around more to avoid AOE attacks and the like, but avoid them and its back to spamming your skill.

Guild Wars 2 isn't a failure because of how it was designed.  It is more of a disappointment because the game allows you to do just about everything solo except instances, and the difference in difficulty between the two is so far apart.  The game never teaches you how to function in a group.  You don't even communicate in the "open" world.  Throw a whole bunch of people that have no group experience into an instance and you get what most people complain about with GW2 -- people run in their own directions, they aoe everything in sight, and they don't always help downed teammates.

If you're playing a game with the holy trinity, you can have easy solo play and still go into instances with a group that can survive because everyone can fall back into their role and they don't really need to think much about what to do.  Spam heal, spam taunt, spam damage.  To be honest, the most fun I've had in holy trinity group is when someone screwed up or we didn't see a patrol when we pulled.  I know that some players will scream that the team screwed up even if everyone survives, but sometimes those are the most fun to me because you step out of your cement shoes and scrambled to come up with a victory.  I'm not saying a group of incompetents is more fun... but these days you can't really tell how good a holy trinity group is until something goes wrong.  (I will admit that this doesn't apply to big raids because one screw up is usually enough to kill everyone.)

I think there is still better gameplay than the holy trinity.  Maybe you remove tanking... it has a mechanic (taunt) that doesn't work in pvp, so change it so that it makes more sense.  Maybe tanks are knockdown specialists, or maybe they can protect weaker players by intercepting attacks rather than yelling "Hey, over here, attack me!"  I've said this in other holy trinity threads, but I don't understand how getting repeatedly hit (mauled or stabbed through the gut) while being healed equates to any epic battle I've ever pictured in my mind, read in a book, or saw in a movie.

I really don't think spamming healing makes for an epic battle either, but at least it is a mechanic that works in both pve and pvp.  I really don't like full heals and I think dots make for a more challenging battle (you'll recover as long as you don't get in too much trouble for a few seconds).  But I can't say that removing healing completely from a game makes the most sense.

In summary, I think there are better options than the holy trinity but most players like the safety of knowing they need to spam heal or taunt and they'll be okay.  I think tanking is the weakest of the trinity and could be tweaked to something more interesting than a taunt machine that takes all aggro.

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

3/10/13 1:34:41 PM#55
Ummm sandbox with no levels or professions worked fine in the past lol. SWG as an example i could set up my character in any form i wanted and change it. The "holy trinity" as you guys call it was the "new" and is much more boring than the "old", my humble opinion of course.
  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

3/10/13 1:49:37 PM#56

I don't get this argument.

 

For me it's never been a matter of if a system is broken or not. It's the limiting factors. You can claim all you want that a trinity adds structure to a game and that without it you'd be left with mindless slogs. You're free to that as an opinion.

 

As a fact though, you'd be wrong.

 

Point on this being to look back at previous titles built on the premise of customization of characters. Asheron's Call was a decent example of a game with open-ended design to how you wished to build a character, and before players got haerdcore into the must-haves to exploit game imbalances there was a wide variety of builds you could prototype out and setupf that were actually perfectly functional, and yet could still fall in line with a group.

 

Or another example, Planetside. Yeah it's a shooter, but for those that actually played the game youi can think back and note how they left progression and specialization as a personal choice. Your class played as you kitted it and no matter the selection, unless you were exceptionally redundant or just rolling with a zerg, you could have a build to benefit a squad because you would have particular equipment to address at least one of the aspects of Planetside's conflict.

 

It might not be a popular or technically good game, but an additional example can be seen in Champions to a degree. Yes, the game has a healing class design to go along with a tank and a dps build, but you can also equally note that the game allows for character customization to the extent that you can make any combination in-between as well, and blending the class features generally goes a long way to not just building a better player, but a better team, as characters are more capable of cycling through combat and supporting one another.

 

This is a similar aspect to what people have a habit of discounting about GW2's approach. They simplify the notion to claim the lack of the trinity makes combat scenarios into just a bar room brawl type scenario. I find this claim generally erroneous, as I can note offhand that I see decent teams for raids and even open world play typpically choose their gear and consequently skillsets based on what the other members of the group uses, and that goes a fair way in optimizing the play of the group without them having to adopt a specific role. It's only when they choose to do silly things like all picking the heaviest hitting weapon sets they have or all weilding heal items that you get the pug wipes and spam fests where people dash themselves upon the mobs several dozen times over to complete a raid.

 

Then there's also one of my generally favored examples that went largely unplayed by the world in spite of the game's quality. Saga of Ryzom. A third title that let players progress in any skill thery wanted and went as far as letting them create the abilities they were using. How did they create team play elements? Well mainly by building a better game with more unique AI, creatures that respond in passive, defenseive, and predatory fashions, and larger combat situations that required co-ordination over simply making sure your role kept a wheel turning.

 

That brings me to my point really. The problem is the external factor of co-ordination. You can have an mmo with the trinity built into it, like Tera, and that trinity can be utterly useless because you need very little co-ordination to beat any of the creatures in the game, even the world bosses. Y^ou can have all the class definition or malleability you want, but as long as the core mechanics of combat itself is simple, the gameplay is going to be simple.

 

If it wasn't obvious already I'm generally in disfavor of the trinity. Not as the trinity itself, but the accompanying common trait to class-lock you where I would preferably be able to kit myself out in a scale between any of the game's elements, always meeting a net sum limiting the overall performance to roughly equal. So if you ask me what I'd rather a game have you'll most likely hear me say a 'classless system', but don't mistake that for a disorganized one. I still believe in the value of templates.

 

It's the complexity of combat itself that needs to be addressed. When the gameplay is simple at the basic level of interaction between you and the world, no amount of class definition or customization will fix the nature of the combat.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Serelisk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/11
Posts: 845

3/10/13 2:19:45 PM#57
Originally posted by Mavek
Originally posted by zipzap
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Don't fix what isn't broken.

so nothing should be upgraded or changed ever?

i'm pretty sure the shape of the wheel has stayed the same for the last 20,000 years.

That's a bad analogy. It implies that the wheel hasn't evolved since whatever abstract frame of time you just named in a vain attempt to be cheeky. There's an entire portion of the automotive industry based around the development of wheels that offer stronger performance or are made for different situations. 

@OP, I like the way GW2 and other soft trinity systems do it, because my main issue with the Holy Trinity is the pigeonholing of classes to 3 basic and unmoving archetypes. It's boring, stagnant, and needs to go imo. But that's my opinion. If I pick a heavy class, I want it to be because of the strength of the class & it's unique properties they created, and how fun it is to play that class. NOT the role it's ascribed to. 

 

 

  h0urg1ass

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/29/05
Posts: 308

3/10/13 2:20:37 PM#58

The trinity is not broken.  It is simply one of several completely valid and completely relevant styles of gameplay.

Not liking something, does not make it immediately bad or wrong.  I, personally, do not like trinity based games.  Does this mean they are broken or bad?  Not at all.  Nine million WoW subscribers say otherwise.

Do some of us want a less structured playstyle?  Yes, however, we are actually in the minority.  The vast majority of MMO gamers enjoy having a solid, structured, point A --> point B,  environment.

There's an interesting dichotomy between MMO gamers and single player gamers.  I've noticed that the vast majority of MMO players want a very structured game with levels, classes and specificially designated roles.  Single Player gamers, however, tend towards the complete opposite side of the spectrum.  The TES series, The fallout Series, the Farcry Series and, I could go on for a long time here, are all sandbox games.  Very open, very unstructured.  Build the character you want to build, and play the game how you want to play it.

This has never really translated well into an online community for some reason.  Even our best shining example of this, EVE Online, only boasts a tiny fraction of the players (keep in mind subs and players in EVE are vastly different concepts) of WoW and GW2.  Games that have tried this are left in relative obscurity or bashed by the community such as Darkfall which was a great sandbox, but no one played it except for a tiny community of hyper griefing uber pricks.

I'm holding out great hopes for The Repopulation.  It may be the game that I've been waiting for... or it may not, but I'm hoping it gives me a chance to play without the trinity.

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

3/10/13 3:08:34 PM#59
Originally posted by Mavek
Originally posted by zipzap
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Don't fix what isn't broken.

so nothing should be upgraded or changed ever?

i'm pretty sure the shape of the wheel has stayed the same for the last 20,000 years.

*looks at tank*

*looks at snowmobile*

*looks at seaplane*

Wheels are great, but they're not the only thing out there anymore.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/10/13 3:41:35 PM#60
Originally posted by Eleazaros

The older style wouldn't work with modern gamers.

The ADD nature and "demand" based way games run would preclude most alternate systems from working.  It needs to be consistent and predictable.  If you can't google the answers on "best build" "how to do ..." so on and so forth, most gamers have already demonstrated they'll throw fits.

These common attributes you find across MMO's is due to the same logic as your DPS parser.  The game companies "parse" who does what and build more of what the players do vs just what they talk about - which rarely matches what they stay with for any length of time.

Too much variance off the common themes we see and it won't be acceptable by enough players to make a quality game that can be supported by the game manufacturer.

So what people do as they play limits what they can and will be able to offer with "high quality" presentations.  It costs to make the stuff.

Whoa, buddy, this has nothing to do with ADD and everything to do with better gameplay.  Specialists relying on each other is applicable to real life collaboration, which is why it's typically considered more fun (learning to collaborate in a group is an enjoyable form of play.)

Everyone being mostly the same and collaborating?  Well that's just less of a game, and therefore considered less fun.  It's not devoid of fun, but simply less fun.

Does specialization have to take the form of a trinity?  Not exactly, but the trinity is so simplified down to its pure form (mitigation, recovery, and damage; tanking, healing, and DPS) that you're going to be hard-pressed to find specializations which can't be put into those categories.

For example in Puzzle Pirates a ship needs completely abstract jobs to be done: Rigging, Sailing, Bilging, Carpentry, etc.  From one point of view these share absolutely no similarities to Tank, Healer, DPS.  But when you actually know how all the pieces fit together, you realize Rigging/Sailing are essentially DPS, and Bilging/Carpentry are healing.

So even this game which is absurdly not the typical trinity can be quantified by the trinity because its definition is so broad.

10 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search