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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Since FFA Full Looting is here to stay in Sandboxes, is there a way to perhaps make it fun?

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96 posts found
  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

3/10/13 10:12:30 AM#41
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Vesavius

The sad thing is that this next generation of MMO sandboxes is that their apparent reliance on open world PvP as content will kill their wider appeal (specifically to the builders/ socialisers/ PvEers) and restrict them to a small niche. This will mean they will 'fail' in the eyes of the mainstream and it will be seen as sandbox has no market.

It will be the open world PvP that kills the model ultimately, not the concept of sandbox play itself.

But then, ofc, the themepark will be back in fashion by then so it won't matter anyhow.

Blimey I agree with Vesavius. 

I agree, as well. The growing association between FFA Full loot and sandbox really hurts that aspect of MMOs.

 

Its part of a bigger issue for me, if you have mecahnics in games that allow players to interfere with others players game time you will reduce your potential playerbase. This is a core aspect of sandbox gaming as I read it from many posters on here, things like OPvP, FFA PVP, territorial control, deep crafting systems, taming etc.. its just that some are more insidious than others and at the top you have FFA PvP. So dev's have a really hard task of balancing the various player driven tools that sandboxes require to make them work as the more freedom you give players the more exploits will be found. Its why I believe dev's have shied away from making UO/SWG style games they are just way to complicated to get right.

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  Tyvolus4

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 158

3/10/13 10:15:58 AM#42
Originally posted by Quizzical
The entire premise of your thread title is all wrong.  While there are some sandboxes that are free for all full loot PVP, there are plenty that aren't.

pretty much this.  hard to take this seriously when the whole point the OP is trying to make, doesnt even really exist.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2659

3/10/13 10:30:06 AM#43
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Dihoru

I love how people say FFA full loot pvp isn't a core mechanic of sandbox games... hint people: without it you're in a open world game, you can do whatever except kill that douche that chain aggroed a pack of wolves onto your herd of domesticated animals. Sorry but no, to say sandbox without FFA PVP with full loot is a great idea is to say french fries go well with honey.

No one ever ganked me for my clay in ATITD. I'm not getting looted much in Free Realms, either.

 

You're combining way too many differnt mechanics in that statement, as well.

  • PVP
  • FFA
  • full loot

That combination is NOT a core mechanic of sandbox games. It's a very common combination, but definitely not a defining set of features.

It's a frigging sandbox, it is in the name, the choice to kill someone however, whenever you damn well please is right there and having no consequence to that event (IE no full loot drop) will actually spurr griefing along (the victim won't care and the victim's friends certainly won't, just a corpse run or res and that's it). The farther you go away from giving players choices the less the game is a sandbox and more an open world one. If PVEers, world builders, roleplayers, etc, want a place in an actual sandbox game let them fight for it if not then stop poluting the definition of a sandbox MMO game with the traits of a sandbox singleplayer game, they are different and if people want to spend time build, crafting, whatnot without risking pvp they have plenty of open world games to choose from in the MMO genre and quite a few epic singleplayer sandboxes (minecraft anyone?).

 

Christ its getting to the point where I think CVA was a fluke in MMO terms (roleplayers, industrials, PVEers from EVE whom live in a sector of space they claim and defend viciously from invasions and raiders, their patch of 0.0 space is amongst the safest in the whole of EVE which isn't saying much but when you see PVEers gathering in mass to form pirate/ganker hunting parties you get the point of what people who fight for their rights can do). Less entitled demands of castrating MMO sandboxes to fit your warped demands on the medium and more fighting for your rights gents ;) (and to repeat: I hate PVP XD but EVE is a good example of why PVP in a sandbox augments the experience, not takes away from it).

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

3/10/13 11:35:28 AM#44
Originally posted by RefMinor
 

On the same note, YOU could leave MMORPGs alone and go play Your lobby COOP cames instead of repeatedly calling for MMORPGs to become lobby based COOP games.

For your information, MMORPGs are ALREADY lobby co-op games. Otherwise, why do you think i am here?

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

3/10/13 12:23:17 PM#45
Originally posted by Dihoru

Christ its getting to the point where I think CVA was a fluke in MMO terms (roleplayers, industrials, PVEers from EVE whom live in a sector of space they claim and defend viciously from invasions and raiders, their patch of 0.0 space is amongst the safest in the whole of EVE which isn't saying much but when you see PVEers gathering in mass to form pirate/ganker hunting parties you get the point of what people who fight for their rights can do). Less entitled demands of castrating MMO sandboxes to fit your warped demands on the medium and more fighting for your rights gents ;) (and to repeat: I hate PVP XD but EVE is a good example of why PVP in a sandbox augments the experience, not takes away from it).


One thing here, though:  Eve didnt' have full-loot.

It had what I would call 'full loss.'  Most of the loot *blows up* before it gets into the looter's hands.  This changes the behavioral incentives a fair bit compared to literal "full loot" systems.  And also allows it to act as a wealth-sink rather than just a wealth-redistribution method.

Not everyone will take that incentive;  some just want to blow shit up while others are doing their pew-pew in contexts where such things don't make much sense.   But then they have to find other means of income to support their own losses when it's inevitably their turn to get blowed-up, which takes them out of the action for a bit themselves (either before to build a buffer, or after to rebuild.) 

 

I doubt this is what the OP was thinking about, but the idea is at least somewhat outside the normal box...

  Abuz0r

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 292

3/10/13 12:25:38 PM#46
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by Dihoru

Christ its getting to the point where I think CVA was a fluke in MMO terms (roleplayers, industrials, PVEers from EVE whom live in a sector of space they claim and defend viciously from invasions and raiders, their patch of 0.0 space is amongst the safest in the whole of EVE which isn't saying much but when you see PVEers gathering in mass to form pirate/ganker hunting parties you get the point of what people who fight for their rights can do). Less entitled demands of castrating MMO sandboxes to fit your warped demands on the medium and more fighting for your rights gents ;) (and to repeat: I hate PVP XD but EVE is a good example of why PVP in a sandbox augments the experience, not takes away from it).


One thing here, though:  Eve didnt' have full-loot.

It had what I would call 'full loss.'  Most of the loot *blows up* before it gets into the looter's hands.  This changes the behavioral incentives a fair bit compared to literal "full loot" systems.  And also allows it to act as a wealth-sink rather than just a wealth-redistribution method.

Not everyone will take that incentive;  some just want to blow shit up while others are doing their pew-pew in contexts where such things don't make much sense.   But then they have to find other means of income to support their own losses when it's inevitably their turn to get blowed-up, which takes them out of the action for a bit themselves (either before to build a buffer, or after to rebuild.) 

 

I doubt this is what the OP was thinking about, but the idea is at least somewhat outside the normal box...

This is 1 mechanic most games are missing, wealth sinks.  They help the games economy no matter how you see them.

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

3/10/13 12:29:36 PM#47

sandbox =/= full loot open world pvp.

More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.

Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.

Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

3/10/13 12:29:36 PM#48
The corpse loot FFA PvP server in Age of Conan has the least population, corpse loot is not that popular because it is stressful

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Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
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  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4515

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

3/10/13 12:39:45 PM#49

I have a simple suggestion that'd make it slightly more fun.

 

each crafted item has the name of the crafter written in green, and the name of each looter written in red in a list.

 

who knows, maybe 2 years later you get back that microwarpdrive you lost during a failed bomb run. :D

 

again, this is not a game-changer, just a very small suggestion. :). don't expect it to fix mmo's for ever.

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

3/10/13 12:57:08 PM#50
Originally posted by Rhonen

I will simply not play any game that has FFA PvP Looting.  That will make me very happy indeed.  About the only thing that would make me happier is if the developers would just stop putting in any form of PvP in my PvE games.

Ratero.

I endorse this approach.  Mostly.

See, as far as I'm concerned 'mainstreaming' games such that they try to have some nominal appeal to everyone, all at once, is about the worst thing to happen to MMO gameplay.  It did wonders for the budgets, allowing for massive increases in the technical quality;  but then they couldn't afford to cater that game to anyone *but* the casuals who wanted a little bit of everything but not a lot of anything.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2659

3/10/13 3:10:21 PM#51
Originally posted by Onomas

sandbox =/= full loot open world pvp.

More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.

Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.

Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.

AoW is a sandpark by the developer's own admission -_-...   take your own advice with misconceptions.

In that same vein Ascheron's Call is also classified as a sandpark by its characteristics (questing as a means of improving your character).

Pretty much any PVE "sandbox" is actually a hybrid with what sandbox elements it does have (housing, crafting, etc) basically being pointless in the grand scheme of things (no strife means no reason to actually have anything besides one upping your guild mates/adversaries).

 

When I say full loot I mean you lose everything you have on you at that time not that the looter gets everything (so an EVE system, yes).

The thing I don't get though is why people are so adverse to losing pixels? I mean you should invest in your character not the crap he wears/uses/flies, I mean yeah I am attached to some of my ships in EVE but unless it gets blown up by a in-game glitch I really don't care (even my first Tengu, which I still have, which I spent months building and over a year tweaking and improving its fit, if it goes poof I'll miss it for the 20-30 min it would take me to put another one back together). Play smart and no matter how much you get ganked you'll never be running around in your unmentionables but if you're an entitled little man child who thinks items are everything then yeah... you'll be crying allot in that type of game.

 

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2659

3/10/13 3:34:59 PM#52
Thank you maintence for the double post x.x

  Attend4455

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 166

3/10/13 3:55:09 PM#53
Originally posted by MMOExposed

What if there was a benefit to not getting looted as well as when you get looted

 

 

Interestingly enough EvE doesn't have full looting, it's random, but look at a 50% chance of a drop.

HTH

I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

3/10/13 4:13:50 PM#54
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Onomas

sandbox =/= full loot open world pvp.

More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.

Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.

Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.

AoW is a sandpark by the developer's own admission -_-...   take your own advice with misconceptions.

In that same vein Ascheron's Call is also classified as a sandpark by its characteristics  ...........blah blah blah...........

 

No such thing as a sandpark or a hybrid. Those terms are only used by  people that do not know the difference and similar aspects of each style. They use such words to make it sound better for themselves. In actuality, its still a sandbox. But many here never played one or played a game outside the normal cookie-cutter wow clone to know the difference. Including most the developers that have created these monsterous things they are releasing as mmorpg's today.

Sandbox does everything, a themepark limits everything. You can not sit there and say something is a sandpark because it has quests and a story because every freaking sandbox has quests and story either via personal story ot developer created story. Its just not handed to you on a silver platter like themeparks. There is nothing a themepark has or hasnt done that a sandbox hasnt already done. Thus you can not say its a hybrid, because in simplest form its still a sandbox. Sandbox games incoorporate everything into the game via by players or developers, themeparks limit everything. Calling a sandbox a sandpark is an insult.

Where does it say sandbox can not have quests? Every sandbox i have played has had quests. Does not say anywhere that a sandbox can not have levels or classes either. Only misconception here is you have no clue what a sandbox is.

 

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6084

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

3/10/13 4:21:58 PM#55
Originally posted by Yizle
Originally posted by Mavolence
Much,much,much,much less emphasis on the importance of items. Back in UO i cared not when i got dry looted because the items were just not that important to me, i easily replaced them and had a house just full of stock piles that it took me a few minutes to get back re armor,arm,pot,aids and recall back into the fray kill and reloot both his and my own set i had just lost.

This is about right. There were those few really nice magic items though but for the most part I make 4 or 5 sets of gear and bank em. If I died I could just throw on another and ready for the fun.

 

 

Exactly, only problem is with most of today's masses of gamers it brings in too much thought into play, preparation? what's that, I "= they" want it all and want it now. Unfortunaly we can't blame them cause many where introduced by games of that nature when internet became more mainstream.

On Topic: I still feel FFA Full Loot has it's place in a mmorpg, but as said many times only if it's optional, that too me is the only way it can be fun. In a MMORPG gamers want to get to know the game, the world, the feature's/mechanics, the lore/story. Some will pursue just that, some will seek other forms like PVP. Of course the "I want it all and want it now" will start complaining that pvp s%cks as no one is playing it. A MMORPG player will or should understand that things in a MMORPG should/could take time.

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6084

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

3/10/13 4:29:44 PM#56
Originally posted by Onomas

sandbox =/= Freedom with many optional mechanics/feature's

full loot open world pvp =/=  Pushing players into a certain playstyle = NOT Sandbox

More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.

Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.

Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.

Fixed...in my opinion

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

3/10/13 4:42:08 PM#57
Originally posted by Reklaw
Originally posted by Onomas

sandbox =/= Freedom with many optional mechanics/feature's

full loot open world pvp =/=  Pushing players into a certain playstyle = NOT Sandbox

More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.

Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.

Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.

Fixed...in my opinion

So what you are saying is you think sandboxes do not have freedom, choice, tons of features, and optional game mechanics to allow players to create content to prolong the fun and longevity of a sandbox? Because all the new themepark games are #1 in sales, subs, and last for decades right? Because themeparks just offer so many features and never ending story to keep its player base going for years right?

Because if that is what you are saying.........................

 

  User Deleted
3/10/13 4:44:47 PM#58

As long as gear is easily replaceable i'm fine with it. Eve Online, and perhaps Mortal online being good examples of how I think FFA looting should work. The game probably shouldn't have traditional levels either, if you've played Tera/any recent open world pvp game, you know high levels will just run around ganking lowbies who can't fight back.

While I enjoyed the game, I did not like the way it was done in Lineage 2 as an example. Back at release I've had situations in which i've had to completely scrap a character and start over because some maxed out player took a pair of weapons that I could not afford to replace, not even with something out of the vendor due to the insanely high price of everything.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2659

3/10/13 4:45:10 PM#59
Originally posted by Onomas
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Onomas

sandbox =/= full loot open world pvp.

More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.

Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.

Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.

AoW is a sandpark by the developer's own admission -_-...   take your own advice with misconceptions.

In that same vein Ascheron's Call is also classified as a sandpark by its characteristics  ...........blah blah blah...........

 

No such thing as a sandpark or a hybrid.... -cue a couple of paragraphs of self-vindication with more opinions than facts and no proof stated-

Now if you want to talk on equal footing go check where the term sandbox originated and which MMOs shaped its definition (hint it ain't Ascheron's Moan or any of the craptastic open world grindfests you seem to dellude yourself into calling sandboxes).

 

Also fun fact: A themepark is not a limited sandbox, it doesn't even come from the same area, a sandbox has very little to no character progression, the in-game goals are so different as to beg the questions why even put them in the same room, the options of what you want to do is completely up to you (you could only see what the developers left in place, example: EVE Online's missioning, or you could see the plethora of services you could provide in the emergent gameplay experience, example from eve: being a black/red frog freighter pilot, running an investment bank, running a lottery, becoming a professional spy, becoming a assets thief, etc) whereas in open world/themepark games your options are drastically limited by classes/optimal skill builds, area available for housing, area available for sculpting, area available for crafting (if it allows husbandry or farming), etc,etc because again with no real FFA full loot (everything is lost but not everything can be looted) your worlds are static, once crap gets put down unless the guys owning it leave the game and the game has a gold sink via taxing (thus houses and whatnot get repoed) your world will never change beyond the first few weeks/months, ergo the games without strife are not sandboxes, they are at best sandparks, at worse themeparks with sandbox elements glued on without any real consideration or depth.

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6084

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

3/10/13 5:51:48 PM#60
Originally posted by Onomas
Originally posted by Reklaw
Originally posted by Onomas

sandbox =/= Freedom with many optional mechanics/feature's

full loot open world pvp =/=  Pushing players into a certain playstyle = NOT Sandbox

More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.

Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.

Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.

Fixed...in my opinion

So what you are saying is you think sandboxes do not have freedom, choice, tons of features, and optional game mechanics to allow players to create content to prolong the fun and longevity of a sandbox? Because all the new themepark games are #1 in sales, subs, and last for decades right? Because themeparks just offer so many features and never ending story to keep its player base going for years right?

Because if that is what you are saying.........................

 

huh, perhaps try and read again what's behind sandbox =/=

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