There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Some systems may work better than others in certain environments but there is never one that will ALWAYS be the best for all environments. What happens to some of us after playing one way for so long is that we get bored and start to seek a change. If we try something new, we may like it and stick with it (til we get bored again), keep searching, or go back to what we know. 

So, for me it's not about coming up with something better but creating something different to give players a NEW experience.

Here's some ideas:

Combine tank/dps roles. Give each class a taunt or threat type attack to keep target focused on them. If you're facing a boss that uses magic for dmg you could have a spell casting class(with their increased magic defences) as a tank. Or, Melee/casting classes alternate if a boss has both abilities)

You could keep healers. Or, have each class have some type of self heal abilities.

You could create a class whose sole responsibility is to control ads. You could create a whole array of control methods so that the ads are slowed down or stopped so a party can deal with them before they are overwhelmed. They may drop them into a hole in the ground, slowing them til they climb out, levitate them for a periood of time, freeze them in place, transport them to the other side of the cavern etc etc.

Some instances/dungeons may require 3 crowd control guys for example, others one or even none. Could make for some exciting new dynamics.

It's not hard to create a new system but the trick will be to have it balance and work well.

Rhino.

Originally posted by Rhinotones

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Some systems may work better than others in certain environments but there is never one that will ALWAYS be the best for all environments. What happens to some of us after playing one way for so long is that we get bored and start to seek a change. If we try something new, we may like it and stick with it (til we get bored again), keep searching, or go back to what we know. 

So, for me it's not about coming up with something better but creating something different to give players a NEW experience.

Here's some ideas:

Combine tank/dps roles. Give each class a taunt or threat type attack to keep target focused on them. If you're facing a boss that uses magic for dmg you could have a spell casting class(with their increased magic defences) as a tank. Or, Melee/casting classes alternate if a boss has both abilities)

You could keep healers. Or, have each class have some type of self heal abilities.

You could create a class whose sole responsibility is to control ads. You could create a whole array of control methods so that the ads are slowed down or stopped so a party can deal with them before they are overwhelmed. They may drop them into a hole in the ground, slowing them til they climb out, levitate them for a periood of time, freeze them in place, transport them to the other side of the cavern etc etc.

Some instances/dungeons may require 3 crowd control guys for example, others one or even none. Could make for some exciting new dynamics.

It's not hard to create a new system but the trick will be to have it balance and work well.

Rhino.

None of that is new, it's all been in WoW at some point. They have different bosses that need tanked by different people, they have bosses that require add control and management, they have bosses where you have to self heal.

I actually think WoW raids ave plenty variety in the machanics over the years just most people either don't see it when it's relevant or dismiss everything with tanks dps and healers as basic tank and spank.

I think everything you described is still a trinity too, currently games have a hard enough time just getting tanks and healers to play those roles trying to get people to play a constant control class is difficult.

Originally posted by Hrimnir

 

 

Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't ue the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

1. No it didnt, in fact it had a "quadrity", as you needed an enchanter for crowd control, or a really freakin good bard.

2. The holy trinity is not broken, the current form of the MMORPG is broken.  The Holy Trinity works just fine when you have a game that properly promotes grouping.  With the current state of mmo's being online single player RPGs then yes, the holy trinity becomes pointless.  Also, you're misidentifying the problem, the issue is not the holy trinity, but the pigeon holing of certain classes to certain roles. Rift proved the holy trinity works just fine, because just about every class could play just about every role.

3. GW2 is not a success, 3 million boxes sold means nothing if only 1/8th of that still regularly log into the game. See Diablo III for evidence of high box sales and failure. EVE ABSOLUTELY has the holy trinity, its just because its not called a cleric, or a DPS, or a tank.  But you absolutely have to have DPS ships, support ships, and tank ships to be be succesful in a non 1 on 1 fight. UO's focus was on PVP, and you can bet your ass the people who were most successful were the ones who showed up with a couple healers and CC'ers in the group.  Lets see, 5 dps, 2 healers and a cc'er vs 8 dps, who do you think wins that fight...

4. D&D is not an MMO. *Gasp*

 

1. OMG poor Shaman, we had great slows, buffs, debuffs DoTs and Heals. Hehe my bro played a chanter. Put the two of us in a group and we could take on anything. :-)

100% agree on the rest. :-)

Originally posted by CalmOceans

I see some people complain about the holy trinity.

That's fine, but realise that the holy trinity from Everquest, which was based on D&D, created one of the most successful MMO communities ever, a community that grouped and was much stronger than the fast-paced action games we see now.

So people who say

"the trinity is boring, we need something new"

That's great, but unless you are able to offer something as compelling as the trinity then I'll remain playing games with a trinity.

Don't fix what isn't broken.

Okay, heres my fix for the Trinity... 

Are you ready?... 

This is going to be a long post, so make sure you have plenty of time to read it before starting...

Sandbox

Ok, nevermind I guess it wasn't that long. In any case, I like what GW2 did and I'm looking forward to what ESO has in store since they too want to stray from the traditional trinity. 

Personally I'm glad so many developers have taken notice of the fact that the trinity is broken and are finally attempting to fix it. 

Honestly, I'd be happy if classes were simply given more flexibility and the need for specific roles wasn't a neccessity. I liked Bear Shaman in AoC, Cleric in Neverwinter, Cleric in Rift, but not in many others. When I have the option of tanking, DD, healing, or being a bit of a hybrid/support the trinity aggrivates me a great deal less. 

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by CalmOceans

I see some people complain about the holy trinity.

That's fine, but realise that the holy trinity from Everquest, which was based on D&D, created one of the most successful MMO communities ever, a community that grouped and was much stronger than the fast-paced action games we see now.

So people who say

"the trinity is boring, we need something new"

That's great, but unless you are able to offer something as compelling as the trinity then I'll remain playing games with a trinity.

Don't fix what isn't broken.

Okay, heres my fix for the Trinity... 

Are you ready?... 

This is going to be a long post, so make sure you have plenty of time to read it before starting...

 

Sandbox

 

Ok, nevermind I guess it wasn't that long. In any case, I like what GW2 did and I'm looking forward to what ESO has in store since they too want to stray from the traditional trinity. 

But not that far.

By dev's word, the trinity roles will still be there and still be viable; but some of the mechanics (particularly aggro management) will change, and characters will be able to shift roles to at least some degree when not in battle.

Personally I'm glad so many developers have taken notice of the fact that the trinity is broken and are finally attempting to fix it. 

Aye.

Not that I have anything against the trinity *itself.*  Just it's near-omnipresence in the market.  (Well, that and the hordes of trinity advocates who scream bloody murder at the mere thought of trying something else.)

If you pick your favourite fight in a fantasy movie e.g. for me the troll fight in moria in LotR, and then imagine how to make mmo combat like that.

Pretty easy imo, you just give players (and mobs) a short range melee root so the tougher ones can create a blocking wall to protect the weaker ones and make being melee rooted in this way by more than one player (or mob) give a major disadvantage.

Among other things this would make multi-level groups (mob or player) viable.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

I see some people complain about the holy trinity.

That's fine, but realise that the holy trinity from Everquest, which was based on D&D, created one of the most successful MMO communities ever, a community that grouped and was much stronger than the fast-paced action games we see now.

So people who say

"the trinity is boring, we need something new"

That's great, but unless you are able to offer something as compelling as the trinity then I'll remain playing games with a trinity.

Don't fix what isn't broken.

Part of the problem is, more than the three most basic roles? Has already existed.

Originally posted by SlickShoes

Originally posted by Rhinotones

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Some systems may work better than others in certain environments but there is never one that will ALWAYS be the best for all environments. What happens to some of us after playing one way for so long is that we get bored and start to seek a change. If we try something new, we may like it and stick with it (til we get bored again), keep searching, or go back to what we know. 

So, for me it's not about coming up with something better but creating something different to give players a NEW experience.

Here's some ideas:

Combine tank/dps roles. Give each class a taunt or threat type attack to keep target focused on them. If you're facing a boss that uses magic for dmg you could have a spell casting class(with their increased magic defences) as a tank. Or, Melee/casting classes alternate if a boss has both abilities)

You could keep healers. Or, have each class have some type of self heal abilities.

You could create a class whose sole responsibility is to control ads. You could create a whole array of control methods so that the ads are slowed down or stopped so a party can deal with them before they are overwhelmed. They may drop them into a hole in the ground, slowing them til they climb out, levitate them for a periood of time, freeze them in place, transport them to the other side of the cavern etc etc.

Some instances/dungeons may require 3 crowd control guys for example, others one or even none. Could make for some exciting new dynamics.

It's not hard to create a new system but the trick will be to have it balance and work well.

Rhino.

None of that is new, it's all been in WoW at some point. They have different bosses that need tanked by different people, they have bosses that require add control and management, they have bosses where you have to self heal. 

I actually think WoW raids ave plenty variety in the machanics over the years just most people either don't see it when it's relevant or dismiss everything with tanks dps and healers as basic tank and spank.

I think everything you described is still a trinity too, currently games have a hard enough time just getting tanks and healers to play those roles trying to get people to play a constant control class is difficult.

Aspects of a couple of these have appeared in WoW for specific bosses yes. They are not part of the general instance or raid system mechanics though.

Could you please highlight what indicates any sort of trinity from my suggestion. For me Trinity implies 3 seperate roles for tanking, damage and healing. Maybe I should have been a little more specific when I said combine tank/dps to "get rid of" tank, instead using a class that would be more suited to dealing with the attacks delt by that foe rather than having a guy that is going to be the tank for 95% of the fights.

If each class could tank, self heal and damage ALL at the SAME TIME (dependant on the boss) how is this the same as WoW? If there is a class whose soul purpose was to crowd control for ALL fights, what class in WoW only does this?

Anyway, I could possibly have worded things better and I am in no way suggesting that this concept was great. I was mearly  showing some ideas of the top of my head to altering what is a standard trinity system.

I feel you missed my main point regarding my post which was not about "coming up with something better but creating something different to give players a NEW experience."

Cheers Rhino.

Originally posted by Rhinotones

Aspects of a couple of these have appeared in WoW for specific bosses yes. They are not part of the general instance or raid system mechanics though.

Remember Naxx, where the shadow priest was elected to tank (via mind control)?

The "trinity only possible answer" thing is just lazy thinking, and overall an indication that your system is too reliant on the most basic tank-and-spank bosses.

Not quite sure why anyone would see that as a good thing. Job security comfy warm hugs?

Originally posted by KaosProphet

Not that I have anything against the trinity *itself.*  Just it's near-omnipresence in the market.  (Well, that and the hordes of trinity advocates who scream bloody murder at the mere thought of trying something else.)

To be fair, better than half of the mmo gamers on the planet entered the system post-WoW. It's a flaw of game development, that's all they've ever been offered.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

I see some people complain about the holy trinity.

That's fine, but realise that the holy trinity from Everquest, which was based on D&D, created one of the most successful MMO communities ever, a community that grouped and was much stronger than the fast-paced action games we see now.

So people who say

"the trinity is boring, we need something new"

That's great, but unless you are able to offer something as compelling as the trinity then I'll remain playing games with a trinity.

Don't fix what isn't broken.

you can usually tell who's actually played DnD.

its so sad. some of you guys should just find a good 3.5 tabletop campaign and experience it.

Originally posted by chelan

you can usually tell who's actually played DnD.

its so sad. some of you guys should just find a good 3.5 tabletop campaign and experience it.

Well now I've played just boatloads of D&D.

Yet, never played one die roll of "3.5 tabletop campaign".

Damnkids.

Originally posted by Antiquated

Originally posted by chelan

you can usually tell who's actually played DnD.

its so sad. some of you guys should just find a good 3.5 tabletop campaign and experience it.

Well now I've played just boatloads of D&D.

Yet, never played one die roll of "3.5 tabletop campaign".

Damnkids.

well i started with the oldskool AD&D. but 3.5 is the most accessible system still left after the 4.0 debacle. i just want some folks to know what there sources are and what its like to play against an "AI" that's another person (DM). trinity doesn't mean anything in a game like that. bunch of drow come round the bend they know damn well to take down the wizard or cleric as quick as they can. they know to engage each party member in combat.

anywho... Damnkids ;)

The older style wouldn't work with modern gamers.

The ADD nature and "demand" based way games run would preclude most alternate systems from working.  It needs to be consistent and predictable.  If you can't google the answers on "best build" "how to do ..." so on and so forth, most gamers have already demonstrated they'll throw fits.

These common attributes you find across MMO's is due to the same logic as your DPS parser.  The game companies "parse" who does what and build more of what the players do vs just what they talk about - which rarely matches what they stay with for any length of time.

So what people do as they play limits what they can and will be able to offer with "high quality" presentations.  It costs to make the stuff.

Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't use the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

I agree. I like Rift's idea of every class can fill all roles and the early days of GW1 where healers can fully dps. I want to be a dps-ing tank/healer or some sort of hybtid that excels in 2 roles. I want to form parties where you can replace a fulltime healer with 2 semi-healers. Soloability is good too...

Originally posted by Dexter2010

Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't use the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

I agree. I like Rift's idea of every class can fill all roles and the early days of GW1 where healers can fully dps. I want to be a dps-ing tank/healer or some sort of hybtid that excels in 2 roles. I want to form parties where you can replace a fulltime healer with 2 semi-healers. Soloability is good too...

How is the trinity not broken? You beg or wait an hour for a tank to enter a 15 min dungeon then find out he's undergeared or no good and he's got a God complex. People steal gear -your gear- outside their role. The trinity restricts gameplay and makes for more grinding. Wanna tank instead of healing? Need on the tank's gear and people shout Ninja before kicking you. Wanna dps a raid with defence gear cause that's all you got? You like being pigeon holed for being best geared healer? You like people rolling need on everything cause they have 3 specs?

Well to be fair, that's not really the trinity's fault, that's the fault of dev's who think there can only be one kind of loot distribution system.  Why not have a system that allows progression but also one like GW2's where everyone gets loot from a chest?  Hey maybe it's not what you wanted, but you can always try again, just like any raid, but the chances of you getting something increase exponentially. 

In addition to that, I guess maybe you could also spawn different gear based on what spec you're in at the time.  The whole Need roll is the problem in my opinion, not the trinity, though that's a bit broken itself.

Originally posted by aSynchro

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.        4) D&D doesn't use the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*                                                                                                                                                                                                          3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

Regarding point 2 - 

So the trinity is broken because not all classes are proficient in the three major spheres of gameplay? (solo PVE, group PVE, and pvp) I would definitely agree that the trinity, as it is popularly implemented, has some major flaws, but I think that lack of utility across the spheres of gameplay makes for a poor argument. A lack of ability to thrive in every role is often what leads players to seek out groups. Generally, the less utility a character has in soloing content and the more difficult they are to maneuver in group content (using your example, a tank in say a high end raid) the more desirable they are in a group. Sorry you had to wait for so long for a tank. Maybe roll one next time.

Blending all classes into a formless blob of dps and heals is not the answer, at least not if you want to promote a dedicated, intelligent playerbase at the high end.

The problem with the trinity is a lack of differentiation. There needs to be utility in each class, something that sets it apart from other classes and gives them greater desirability. Using the ever-popular WoW example, look at the rogue's recently added group cloak ability that allows  the whole party to sneak past mobs, or at the shamans ability to enrage the group, increasing damage. There is nothing inherently wrong with the trinity, its simply that depth needs to be reintroduced.

Games should strive for an open skill based progression and skill based combat. That way people ttat are good enough can progress without the need of a tank or healer. But the tank and healer roll still exists for those that aren't. With a skill system as well, people can craft their character anyway they want without being pigeon holed into a specific role. 

But the one character can do it all at one time just is zergy. 

Originally posted by zipzap

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Don't fix what isn't broken.

so nothing should be upgraded or changed ever?

i'm pretty sure the shape of the wheel has stayed the same for the last 20,000 years.