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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » No more nerfing

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24 posts found
  Tindale111

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/21/12
Posts: 176

 
OP  3/09/13 2:07:03 PM#1
for once it would be nice to find an mmo that dosnt pander to the masses when its not really what the masses want anyway the big 2 of the early mmos EQ2 and Wow have both gone down that road simplifying and nerfing the hell out of the game over the past few years i dont want much i just want a game that dosnt hold my hand for 1st 10 to 20 lvls why not have a slightly longer lvl 1 to clue people in then kick you out and say learn the rest for yourself mr / mrs adventurer im still looking forward to elder scrolls and EQ next and remain optomistic that they will be challenging and that maybe ill actually get killed before lvl 10 lol :)
  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5909

3/09/13 2:17:37 PM#2

No game with multiple classes that are radicle in difference, will ever be balanced. That's why balance need to constantly be done.

there will never been a point that the classes require no changes, unless they were all the same.

 

why play as Dan when you can play as Ken? Unless you want to show off. Which most people do.

  Tindale111

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/21/12
Posts: 176

 
OP  3/09/13 2:46:29 PM#3
Originally posted by MMOExposed

No game with multiple classes that are radicle in difference, will ever be balanced. That's why balance need to constantly be done.

there will never been a point that the classes require no changes, unless they were all the same.

 

why play as Dan when you can play as Ken? Unless you want to show off. Which most people do.

thats not really what i was getting at sounds like your talking more pvp im talking about the game being simplified as in eq2 added mercenaries dosnt matter what class you are its to easy and wow after the 1st expansion all your elite gear you worked for for the 1st 2 years became redundant

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5909

3/09/13 4:59:26 PM#4
Originally posted by Tindale111
Originally posted by MMOExposed

No game with multiple classes that are radicle in difference, will ever be balanced. That's why balance need to constantly be done.

there will never been a point that the classes require no changes, unless they were all the same.

 

why play as Dan when you can play as Ken? Unless you want to show off. Which most people do.

thats not really what i was getting at sounds like your talking more pvp im talking about the game being simplified as in eq2 added mercenaries dosnt matter what class you are its to easy and wow after the 1st expansion all your elite gear you worked for for the 1st 2 years became redundant

Same rule apply. When I was level 17 doing deadmines on my paladin I had a certain amount of skills. When I came back as a level 80, I had a brand new set of skills. Even if I was scaled down. If I had those new skills back at lower level then the whole dungeon would need to be rebalanced because I am sure it wasn't expecting me to have an huge AoE healing strike or a spell that can summon a angel to kick asses. 

 

I assume this is what you speak of. Correct me if I am wrong.

  Jemcrystal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1271

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

3/09/13 8:05:36 PM#5
Nerfing is stupid.  It's an illness of the PvP community and should be forever stopped.
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18791

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/09/13 9:16:49 PM#6
Originally posted by Tindale111
for once it would be nice to find an mmo that dosnt pander to the masses when its not really what the masses want anyway the big 2 of the early mmos EQ2 and Wow have both gone down that road simplifying and nerfing the hell out of the game over the past few years i dont want much i just want a game that dosnt hold my hand for 1st 10 to 20 lvls why not have a slightly longer lvl 1 to clue people in then kick you out and say learn the rest for yourself mr / mrs adventurer im still looking forward to elder scrolls and EQ next and remain optomistic that they will be challenging and that maybe ill actually get killed before lvl 10 lol :)

Such a game exists, it's called EVE.

You probably won't like it, few people do.

How about DF:UW.

You probably won't like it, few people do.

Age of Wushu?

You probably won't like it, few people do.

See, there's actually quite a few games out there (and coming out soon) that don't hold your hand and are more challenging right from the start.

You probably won't like them, few people do.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5909

3/09/13 9:52:10 PM#7
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Tindale111
for once it would be nice to find an mmo that dosnt pander to the masses when its not really what the masses want anyway the big 2 of the early mmos EQ2 and Wow have both gone down that road simplifying and nerfing the hell out of the game over the past few years i dont want much i just want a game that dosnt hold my hand for 1st 10 to 20 lvls why not have a slightly longer lvl 1 to clue people in then kick you out and say learn the rest for yourself mr / mrs adventurer im still looking forward to elder scrolls and EQ next and remain optomistic that they will be challenging and that maybe ill actually get killed before lvl 10 lol :)

Such a game exists, it's called EVE.

You probably won't like it, few people do.

How about DF:UW.

You probably won't like it, few people do.

Age of Wushu?

You probably won't like it, few people do.

See, there's actually quite a few games out there (and coming out soon) that don't hold your hand and are more challenging right from the start.

You probably won't like them, few people do.

 

Is that a good thing?

"Few People" liking a MMO == Few Players in a MMO == Defeats purpose of being a MMO ?

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11900

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

3/09/13 10:21:30 PM#8
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Tindale111
for once it would be nice to find an mmo that dosnt pander to the masses when its not really what the masses want anyway the big 2 of the early mmos EQ2 and Wow have both gone down that road simplifying and nerfing the hell out of the game over the past few years i dont want much i just want a game that dosnt hold my hand for 1st 10 to 20 lvls why not have a slightly longer lvl 1 to clue people in then kick you out and say learn the rest for yourself mr / mrs adventurer im still looking forward to elder scrolls and EQ next and remain optomistic that they will be challenging and that maybe ill actually get killed before lvl 10 lol :)

Such a game exists, it's called EVE.

You probably won't like it, few people do.

How about DF:UW.

You probably won't like it, few people do.

Age of Wushu?

You probably won't like it, few people do.

See, there's actually quite a few games out there (and coming out soon) that don't hold your hand and are more challenging right from the start.

You probably won't like them, few people do.

 

Is that a good thing?

"Few People" liking a MMO == Few Players in a MMO == Defeats purpose of being a MMO ?

When 'few' is more than enough to provide a healthy server population and active game environment, then I don't see the issue with it. Few people like ATITD, but the game was designed with that number in mind so the game works wonderfully as an MMO. Few people - if we are definiting 'few' as several hundred thousand - play EVE Online, too, and that game seems to be doing just fine as an MMO.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18791

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/09/13 10:26:13 PM#9
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Tindale111
for once it would be nice to find an mmo that dosnt pander to the masses when its not really what the masses want anyway the big 2 of the early mmos EQ2 and Wow have both gone down that road simplifying and nerfing the hell out of the game over the past few years i dont want much i just want a game that dosnt hold my hand for 1st 10 to 20 lvls why not have a slightly longer lvl 1 to clue people in then kick you out and say learn the rest for yourself mr / mrs adventurer im still looking forward to elder scrolls and EQ next and remain optomistic that they will be challenging and that maybe ill actually get killed before lvl 10 lol :)

Such a game exists, it's called EVE.

You probably won't like it, few people do.

How about DF:UW.

You probably won't like it, few people do.

Age of Wushu?

You probably won't like it, few people do.

See, there's actually quite a few games out there (and coming out soon) that don't hold your hand and are more challenging right from the start.

You probably won't like them, few people do.

 

Is that a good thing?

"Few People" liking a MMO == Few Players in a MMO == Defeats purpose of being a MMO ?

My point was there are options out there to provide more challenge, yet they don't appeal to many people.

I find people rarely enjoy what they are asking for, the available options are just never good enough.

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1867

3/09/13 10:36:16 PM#10
I feel nerfing shows a lack of respect for the player and the time they have invested. DAOC  without a doubt wins the "incessant nerf " award.
  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3711

RIP City of Heroes!

3/10/13 12:06:57 AM#11
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Tindale111
for once it would be nice to find an mmo that dosnt pander to the masses when its not really what the masses want anyway the big 2 of the early mmos EQ2 and Wow have both gone down that road simplifying and nerfing the hell out of the game over the past few years i dont want much i just want a game that dosnt hold my hand for 1st 10 to 20 lvls why not have a slightly longer lvl 1 to clue people in then kick you out and say learn the rest for yourself mr / mrs adventurer im still looking forward to elder scrolls and EQ next and remain optomistic that they will be challenging and that maybe ill actually get killed before lvl 10 lol :)

Such a game exists, it's called EVE.

You probably won't like it, few people do.

How about DF:UW.

You probably won't like it, few people do.

Age of Wushu?

You probably won't like it, few people do.

See, there's actually quite a few games out there (and coming out soon) that don't hold your hand and are more challenging right from the start.

You probably won't like them, few people do.

 

Is that a good thing?

"Few People" liking a MMO == Few Players in a MMO == Defeats purpose of being a MMO ?

My point was there are options out there to provide more challenge, yet they don't appeal to many people.

I find people rarely enjoy what they are asking for, the available options are just never good enough.

 What you find in people around here is what I see as well.  They want something different until it comes along, then they want the same old thing.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3711

RIP City of Heroes!

3/10/13 12:08:10 AM#12
Originally posted by Shadanwolf
I feel nerfing shows a lack of respect for the player and the time they have invested. DAOC  without a doubt wins the "incessant nerf " award.

 If some aspect of a system of a game is degenerate (broken), from  my point of view, it is the duty of the devs to make changes to fix it.  Nerfs are one of those things.

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

3/10/13 12:14:25 AM#13
Nerfing is here to stay.  Too often, in these games, a player with a clever mind and quick wit can find abusive ways to use regular tools to do game breaking things.  I could list so many from all the games I've played.  The point is, no one likes a nerf.  But if the people you are making mad with a nerf are a smaller group than the people you are making mad without it...then...well...business?

  Pynda

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/04
Posts: 682

3/10/13 12:25:45 AM#14


Originally posted by MMOExposed
No game with multiple classes that are radical in difference, will ever be balanced. That's why balance need(s) to constantly be done.


What?


(Oh, and thanks OP. Your new zero punctuation style is simply amazing. I only wish I were brilliant enough to reinvent the written language all by myself. But alas...)


  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5909

3/10/13 12:29:57 AM#15
Originally posted by Pynda

 


Originally posted by MMOExposed
No game with multiple classes that are radical in difference, will ever be balanced. That's why balance need(s) to constantly be done.

 


What?


(Oh, and thanks OP. Your new zero punctuation style is simply amazing. I only wish I were brilliant enough to reinvent the written language all by myself. But alas...)

 

prove me wrong than.

Street Fighter. Each class is different except the clones. None of them are ever 100% balanced.

Dan vs Ken.... come on. only show offs play Dan.  I do that myself sometimes. I play weaker classes to show off skill in some games some times. did that in Vanilla and TBC WoW on my melee paladin. weak but fun to beat OP classes.

 

 

  blackcat35

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/05/07
Posts: 469

Developers of MMORPGS nerf us today so they can sell us tommorow what we had yesterday.

3/10/13 12:46:16 AM#16

Nerfing in Mmorpgs is alwaysy a bad idea.  Why?  balance is never going to happen, its a mythical critter that doesn't exist.  Nerfing one item is not as bad as nerfing an entire class.  Worse is nerfing multiple classes.

Lets review some of the worst nerfs in MMorpg history and wonder what became of these 2 games:  

 

SWTOR - the first creation mmorpg that everyone complains about the CU- where the nerfed everyone.  What became of that game - it went belly up.

City of Heroes/City of VIllains.  They got stuck on how to make more content, so they decided to nerf everyone, make new items and make people play to get some of the power they lost.  In the begijnning you could play a super hero and feel SUPER.  After the nerfs, not so super.   The went belly up. 

 

Some games have nerfed things and not gone belly up, but they didn't nerf entire classes.  UO nerfed some things.  When I was playing that game I made up a slogan that is probably in my tagline, they nerf us today so tommorow they can sell us what we had yesterday.  Anyhow, UO didn't nerf things as bad as city of heroes or SWTOR, and thus are still around.

Its simply an economic reality - if they nerf the fun out of the game, than its no longer fun to play.  If you have to nerf something, then nerf items, not classes.  If you have one class being too effective, like rogues with too powerful of invis, make a few items with the ability to counter the invis.  Like goggles of permanent see invis.  Those people who get the items, are more effective against the rogues, and you didn't have to nerf the rogues to get more checks and balances in the game.  Also you have more variety of magic items.

 

 

==========================
The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.

  Rayshe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

3/10/13 1:03:47 AM#17

Want a game that doesnt hold your hand for the beginning. Play TSW, It however doesnt have traditional Levels. Here is the thing, if you havent figured out a functioning build by the 3rd zone, You will get your ass handed to you by the mobs there. at that point you can choose to either reroll or rerun quests in the previous zone until you sort out your build. Basically it gives you 2 zones worth of quests to sort out your playstyle.

TSW has a habit of being quite harsh. For example, During endgame a DPS getting hit usually means that DPS is dead. The only Nerfing that has happened is to abilities, With others getting buffed. But that is called balencing. The game can be either very simple (Via jumping online and copying somone elses build) or very complicated (Making something good yourself from scratch) The game is B2P so if you wanna give it a shot i say go for it, most places has it on for 30 bucks.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  Alberel

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1121

3/10/13 1:12:54 AM#18

From what I can read of the OP they're actually talking about 'dumbing down' and not nerfing.

Nerfing is typically the adjustment of numbers downwards in the interest of achieving balance. What tends to happen though is the devs get lazy and instead simplify entire systems to make their jobs easier. The side effect of this is that the game suddenly gets very dull as systems become overly simplistic and everything starts becoming homogenized. Part of the fun of classes is that everyone can do different things in different ways; it is by nature unbalanced, and attempts to achieve true perfect balance can only ever come at the cost of killing class diversity.

The greatest example of this is WoW's talent trees. Blizzard could never balance them properly and people complained about 'cookie-cutter' builds so Blizzard just gutted the system and forced everyone into cookie-cutter builds by design. Suddenly the talent system was rendered essentially pointless as it was no longer about creating a build but just picking one of three sub-classes.

This ultimately all stems from PvP though. In PvE every class is usually situationally useful which makes no one redundant; the healer can't do much damage but the healing is needed, the tank can't do much damage but his threat control is needed, the rogue can't take much damage but his stealth can mitigate it. PvP is almost always all about who can do the most damage first though and so it's balanced on a very simplistic scale rendering all those other class abilities nigh-obsolete. Suddenly that tank is useless in PvP because threat control doesn't work on players, the devs buff damage to compensate and suddenly his defensive skills are overpowered...

The only solution to this will be for ALL PvE mechanics to translate into PvP in their entirety. No MMO to date has done it though...

tldr; Stop nerfing things for PvP, let classes have different strengths and weaknesses, don't make everything about who can do the most damage.

  Pynda

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/04
Posts: 682

3/10/13 1:24:40 AM#19

Sorry, I can be sarcastic at times when I'm pissed. And your view does seem to reflect the mainstream. With constant nerfs and buffs being made as sort of a never ending series of wealth re-distribution schemes, courtesy of the devs. Who secretly know in their hearts that players are actually too stupid to make their own decisions. And need to artificially be made king for a day once in a while so's their dollars will keep flowing in.


But my view is that MMORPGs are basically rock/paper/scissors matchups to begin with. And yes - there will always be a loser in certain situations. Yet what makes it all interesting (a game) is that you get to form your own judgements. And if you need to run, for god's sake run! But when devs try to defeat the very purpose of gaming itself, they only end up cutting their own throats. Because today's princes are going to be even more angry when they are suddenly made a pauper.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/10/13 1:43:49 AM#20
Originally posted by Tindale111

thats not really what i was getting at sounds like your talking more pvp im talking about the game being simplified as in eq2 added mercenaries dosnt matter what class you are its to easy and wow after the 1st expansion all your elite gear you worked for for the 1st 2 years became redundant

Your examples are kinda in two opposite directions:

  • EQ2 companions make things easier for the player.
  • WOW gear becoming obsolete makes things harder for the player. (They can't just sit on some eternal gear advantage.)
I mean you can twist your point of view to call them both nerfing if you really want to (one nerfs your gear, which makes the game harder, and the other buffs your capabilities, which nerfs the content and makes it easier.)
 
The reality is:
  • A game will be shallow without balance tweaks
  • All balance tweaks are nerfs from some point of view
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