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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do you think instant gratification is ruining MMORPGs?

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  Vidir

Novice Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 965

3/09/13 10:03:50 PM#141

I did vote yes to this question.

There are more questions to be asked for why mmorpgs have changed lot the past 10 years or so.

If you want to hear my personal opinion then read othervise dont:-)

Many years ago mmorpg's were few and had few players.Those players often met ingame and became friends,they figured out how to solve quests together(often those quests need lot of players to compleete)Those guys came even closer friends and even set up a rl pub evening even if those were from different countries)Happy guilds were made people had fun grouping with eachother.

Now something happens, big game companies start to make mmorpgs, and lot of people start to play those fantastic games made.

Now nobody has to figure out how to solw anything anymore but just go to this place and kill this amazing boss you need to bring 60 friends with you to kill it.

This did work fine for a litle vile, but very soon ther came some complications. In one ot those large groups there were one guy that felt "I'm the best fu,, the rest" and this one guy seem to have been playing all games released ever sinse. and when a regular player ends up in same group as this guy he/she choose to never group anymore in games.

That is imo the reason why grouping and raiding are fading away in our games and games are and will be focused more to solo and small group play.

 

 

 

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

3/10/13 12:08:56 AM#142

I voted no.  I hated the entire way this OP was phrased anyway, and part of me wanted to lash out about it.  But thats not really doing anyone any favors.  So, instead, I thought about what this trend is really trying to do and why its failing.  Its not failing because we all want to play a game that takes 5 years to even see some content, in fact such an ideal is ludicrous.  The only way to gate such content is to require the player to play the previous content over and over and over....blah blah blah...for those years.  Its dull, unimaginative, and uninspired.  Its lazy development, and it should neither be lauded or heralded by us.

Instead we should be looking at which moments of a game really impact us, which moments steal us away and stay with us forever.  We should try to understand why those moments mattered on level more than just the basic system that allowed it.  My favorite moments, for the record, are often never about some specific piece of content but about content that created itself naturally thanks to how a games systems allowed it to.  In my post about PvP in a different thread, I mentioned how much I actually enjoyed WoW PvP long before it even had features to support it simply because the option to DO it created moments in the game that gave me choice and consequence that stuck with me.  Similar things have happened regarding dungeons or raids.  My happiest moments were never about killing a boss, or looting the chest at the end.  They were always about something fun that happened within the confines of that system before the reward. 

I loved having my raid afk before the Spider boss in ZF, only to have my friend pull her into them shouting that I had done it.  The shambled escape, and interesting use of my skills to try and save people in that moment were more fun than the actual boss fight because it made me think outside the box AND have a good laugh.  I loved the time I was grinding on orcs in EQOA as a wizard and jumped in, moments before the tank died, to unleash all my damage and pull the mob.  I sat there casting and dismissing a familiar to heal me tiny bits each time to give the healer the 5 seconds they needed to get the tank back up.  The grind was boring, but the moment of rush felt by really pushing the limits of what the game intended to really save the day and wow your party was awesome.

Really, its not longer levels we need...its more systems designed around getting variety of play and tools to allow the players to have more moments of personal and deep interaction.  Dragging out levelling doesn't make a game fun at all.  But rewarding the player for doing nothing all the time isn't fun either.  The only reason a game like borderland is fun, while being a giant loot pinata, is because it was designed with that silliness in mind.  The game was about being rediculous and over the top.  Modern MMO's aren't, the loot pinata is just a carrot to make you do content.  The content, or system creating it, should BE the reward.  Too much focus is spent assuming we all just want loot all the time.  Plenty of games prove that to be false.

  Matticus75

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/05
Posts: 391

3/10/13 12:10:36 AM#143
For the OP, its to late now to go back
  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5156

3/10/13 4:01:54 AM#144

It is never too late and as long as we have a solid idea of what it is we want to go back to it would be a big boost to MMO's. We do have good ideas in the newer MMO's, I would not advocate abandoning everything from them. But their inability to maintain traction with players is the writing on the wall. If MMO's just carry on as they are now, there will be no such thing as a AAA title again. In fact we may already have reached that stage.

If you want the only MMO titles around to be poorly funded and last a couple of months then its going to be a great next few years for you. Ask yourself this, why has no MMO beat AOC in graphics when it came out 5 years ago, why has hardly any MMO beat Lotro for landscapes when it came out six years ago, why are you never going to see a MMO with as many voice overs as SWTOR again? The funding is drying up and the MMO industry will not be able to give new games the development time they need. 

  Eleazaros

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/08
Posts: 198

3/10/13 6:20:26 AM#145

Somewhat.

The same as players measure their performance, game makers look at what they do vs just what they say they are interested in.  When they don't do "different" as much as "same", they lock & load that "sameness" as a functional feature.

As such, when players don't pay for "longer term efforts" but for "instant rewards", then they offer more and more instant rewards.

It's a balancing act for them but works about the same as a DPS person "optimizing their build" - the players parse the numbers and balance gear with crit rates vs base-damage, etc.  Game makers "optimize'" their designs based upon what actually is done vs what people talk about.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

3/10/13 6:38:29 AM#146
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Hype has allways been around, starting in the 80's, remember the massive hype for ultima games? Noone then cried foul and objected to the excited expectations ( didn't use word hype then).

Oh, yes we did. It was just confined to (at best) Usenet.

You have to remember, no plethora of web sites to complain ON.

Our gaming magazine was...Dragon...published on paper, snailmailed....

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2660

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/10/13 6:45:38 AM#147
Originally posted by Cod_Eye
They have taken time sinks away, some are good some are bad.  Most MMO's are pointless these days.

All video games are pointless.  Some more so then others.  :)

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

3/10/13 8:02:28 AM#148
Originally posted by taus01
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by taus01
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by taus01
Originally posted by Aerowyn

yup i myself purchased the $60 pack.. why? because after playing beta/alpha i find it would be worth putting a little money into.. MMOs imho are almost always worth the money. You can easily put hundreds upon hundreds of hours into and still not see all the game has to offer.. for that many hours of entertainment $60 is nothing...just the foundry system is worth it for me in neverwinter. 

I am intrigued, would you mind showing us which games you recently played for hundreds of hours? Screenshots please. It can't be just GW2 and if so then show us the hundreds upon hundreds of hours you spent there.

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4360/gw030o.jpg

you can see my /age on that SS

not sure how you can't see the value in these games.. hell i get more play hours on betas of most MMOs than i get from the average single player game

Not loading for me, but i already know you play guildwars. What about other games recently released. You can't play more than one if you commit hundreds of hours into them.

i have played almost 420 hours since launch.. that really isn't that much I still got plenty of time for other games even with a job and family

I find it hard to find games to put that much time into. Most of them are way to repetitive and boring.

 

Isn't this the crux of the whole argument, because some old time MMO players find modern MMO's boring therefore they are bad and no one in their right mind can play these games for 100's of hours? I have 400 hours in SW:TOR, probably nearly 800 in WoW, over 100 hours in many others so I'm with Aerowyn I find there to be lots of value in modern MMO with lots of activities that interest me. But I do not denegrate others for not enjoying modern MMO's as this thread is doing to those who do.

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

3/10/13 11:43:30 AM#149
Originally posted by Scot

It is never too late and as long as we have a solid idea of what it is we want to go back to it would be a big boost to MMO's. We do have good ideas in the newer MMO's, I would not advocate abandoning everything from them. But their inability to maintain traction with players is the writing on the wall. If MMO's just carry on as they are now, there will be no such thing as a AAA title again. In fact we may already have reached that stage.

If you want the only MMO titles around to be poorly funded and last a couple of months then its going to be a great next few years for you. Ask yourself this, why has no MMO beat AOC in graphics when it came out 5 years ago, why has hardly any MMO beat Lotro for landscapes when it came out six years ago, why are you never going to see a MMO with as many voice overs as SWTOR again? The funding is drying up and the MMO industry will not be able to give new games the development time they need. 

The problem is that you only look at a narrow definition of MMOs. If you look at MMO-like games, or games with some MMO features, there are lots of successful, and AAA development because of that.

LOL, DOTA2, WOT, MWO, ARPGs ....

But you are right ... a narrow definition of MMOs ... those games are going out of favor. Embrace new ideas & new types/variations of games. Isn't that what innovation and gaming is about?

  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2141

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

3/10/13 12:13:52 PM#150

I think the people who long for "instant gratification" and the people who want "long and painful gratification" are more similar than different.  They are, because they think that the purpose of an MMO is somewhere out there, in the tasks the developers place in front of them.

But what is missing from both of these sorry ass players is the desire to roleplay; the desire to create their own works of fiction as rolled up in their characters.  When playing an MMO is a matter of playing a character, the content and the "gratification" isn't dependent on levels or grinding.  That's why the early games, and the MUDs, could get away with permadeath, slow levelling and so on.  The play wasn't about mechanics back then.  It was about personality.

I could give a damn about "instant gratification" or "impossible levelling."  Either system is equally meaningless, when all we do is push around "toons."

__________________________
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"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
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  Abuz0r

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 292

 
OP  3/10/13 12:16:51 PM#151
Originally posted by Beatnik59

I think the people who long for "instant gratification" and the people who want "long and painful gratification" are more similar than different.  They are, because they think that the purpose of an MMO is somewhere out there, in the tasks the developers place in front of them.

But what is missing from both of these sorry ass players is the desire to roleplay; the desire to create their own works of fiction as rolled up in their characters.  When playing an MMO is a matter of playing a character, the content and the "gratification" isn't dependent on levels or grinding.  That's why the early games, and the MUDs, could get away with permadeath, slow levelling and so on.  The play wasn't about mechanics back then.  It was about personality.

I could give a damn about "instant gratification" or "impossible levelling."  Either system is equally meaningless, when all we do is push around "toons."

why can't people see the middle ground? I didn't say long and painful.

MMORPG games are supposed to be a never ending experience.

The day the term End Game was introduced was the end of MMORPG games as we knew them.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

3/10/13 12:41:04 PM#152
Originally posted by Abuz0r
 

why can't people see the middle ground? I didn't say long and painful.

MMORPG games are supposed to be a never ending experience.

The day the term End Game was introduced was the end of MMORPG games as we knew them.

"supposed to be" .. dictated by you?

MMORPGs are not supposed to be anything. The genre changes .. just like any other responding to market demand.

So what if a MMORPG is like a SP game but slightly longer? Finish the content. Move on. Come back if there is more content released. Don't tell me that is not how many play MMORPGs today.

  Abuz0r

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 292

 
OP  3/10/13 3:04:57 PM#153

I'm not saying 'every' mmo has to be this way.

The entire premise of my post is that there is no game alternative for people who actually want a good old fashioned mmo like what was offered in the late 90s, just with modern graphics.

All the games that are out now are just mildly different skins of eachothers, and people like me, who actually want a long and challenging game experience, have nowhere to turn at ALL.

Just 1 game, is that too much to ask? you dont have to play it, theres already 900 games for people who want to play the same old easy story and get directed to the next quest.

Anyhow, I respect everyones opinion here, keep it civil, I'm not dictating anything to anyone.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5156

3/11/13 3:39:13 AM#154
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

It is never too late and as long as we have a solid idea of what it is we want to go back to it would be a big boost to MMO's. We do have good ideas in the newer MMO's, I would not advocate abandoning everything from them. But their inability to maintain traction with players is the writing on the wall. If MMO's just carry on as they are now, there will be no such thing as a AAA title again. In fact we may already have reached that stage.

If you want the only MMO titles around to be poorly funded and last a couple of months then its going to be a great next few years for you. Ask yourself this, why has no MMO beat AOC in graphics when it came out 5 years ago, why has hardly any MMO beat Lotro for landscapes when it came out six years ago, why are you never going to see a MMO with as many voice overs as SWTOR again? The funding is drying up and the MMO industry will not be able to give new games the development time they need. 

The problem is that you only look at a narrow definition of MMOs. If you look at MMO-like games, or games with some MMO features, there are lots of successful, and AAA development because of that.

LOL, DOTA2, WOT, MWO, ARPGs ....

But you are right ... a narrow definition of MMOs ... those games are going out of favor. Embrace new ideas & new types/variations of games. Isn't that what innovation and gaming is about?

This has nothing to do with narrow definition, we are taking about a genre which will not be able to fund its titles as well as it used to. I do not believe any of the online game types you mentioned have had the funding that the likes of SWTOR or GW2 have had.

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

3/11/13 3:48:49 AM#155

Asheron's call 2 just re-released in beta was launched in 2002 and to this day its still a old skool mmo as you discribe OP.

 

Its littlebit dumb down with legions expansion in 2005 but its still enormous grind and crafting prolly one of deepest and longest in mmo's today.

Take prolly 2 years or longer before reaching lvlcap and crafting prolly even longer.

 

Asherons call2 can you plaay through taking sub 13$ with ac1 and buy client for 10$

  Abuz0r

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 292

 
OP  3/11/13 5:48:25 AM#156
Originally posted by GroovyFlower

Asheron's call 2 just re-released in beta was launched in 2002 and to this day its still a old skool mmo as you discribe OP.

 

Its littlebit dumb down with legions expansion in 2005 but its still enormous grind and crafting prolly one of deepest and longest in mmo's today.

Take prolly 2 years or longer before reaching lvlcap and crafting prolly even longer.

 

Asherons call2 can you plaay through taking sub 13$ with ac1 and buy client for 10$

It sounds really cool, there's a lot of games from that timeframe that have those qualities.  Unfortunately, no actual new games do :(

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

3/11/13 6:00:05 AM#157
Originally posted by Abuz0r
Originally posted by GroovyFlower

Asheron's call 2 just re-released in beta was launched in 2002 and to this day its still a old skool mmo as you discribe OP.

 

Its littlebit dumb down with legions expansion in 2005 but its still enormous grind and crafting prolly one of deepest and longest in mmo's today.

Take prolly 2 years or longer before reaching lvlcap and crafting prolly even longer.

 

Asherons call2 can you plaay through taking sub 13$ with ac1 and buy client for 10$

It sounds really cool, there's a lot of games from that timeframe that have those qualities.  Unfortunately, no actual new games do :(

Even for old game graphics look like there from today they realy can hold agains many todays games and you can play in 1080p 16:9 can you believe it graphics to drool over 2002 old game:)

AC2 is still very old skool but no themepark also not real sandbox.

Freedom

openworld

no instance but open dungeons to all

no guidance

no markers dots or arrows to show you where to go.

No tips no guides

no npcs or quest hubs with ! above head.

Very deep crafting system that takes long to master.

Also take very long to reach cap prolly many years to lvl150.

Punishment at death can be harsh at times but im almost dont see people complaining.

Still community who give and help awesome community.

Awesome game one of best communitys

Down side dual/triple/quatro boxing and solo play it kills grouping if to many solo.

At moment no advertisement or any promoting the game by TURBINE and need a sub for ac1 to be able to play ac2.

Result not tomany players yet many old ac2 dont know about it and maybe new potetional players waiting at fence i gues.

AC2Forever!!!

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

3/11/13 12:32:03 PM#158
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

It is never too late and as long as we have a solid idea of what it is we want to go back to it would be a big boost to MMO's. We do have good ideas in the newer MMO's, I would not advocate abandoning everything from them. But their inability to maintain traction with players is the writing on the wall. If MMO's just carry on as they are now, there will be no such thing as a AAA title again. In fact we may already have reached that stage.

If you want the only MMO titles around to be poorly funded and last a couple of months then its going to be a great next few years for you. Ask yourself this, why has no MMO beat AOC in graphics when it came out 5 years ago, why has hardly any MMO beat Lotro for landscapes when it came out six years ago, why are you never going to see a MMO with as many voice overs as SWTOR again? The funding is drying up and the MMO industry will not be able to give new games the development time they need. 

The problem is that you only look at a narrow definition of MMOs. If you look at MMO-like games, or games with some MMO features, there are lots of successful, and AAA development because of that.

LOL, DOTA2, WOT, MWO, ARPGs ....

But you are right ... a narrow definition of MMOs ... those games are going out of favor. Embrace new ideas & new types/variations of games. Isn't that what innovation and gaming is about?

This has nothing to do with narrow definition, we are taking about a genre which will not be able to fund its titles as well as it used to. I do not believe any of the online game types you mentioned have had the funding that the likes of SWTOR or GW2 have had.

D3 (ARPG) has AAA funding. DOTA2 and the Blizz MOBA has AAA funding. Borderland 2 has AAA funding. Destiny and Defiance has AAA funding.

May not be TOR type extreme funding, but certainly these games can match GW2 in terms of production values.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5156

3/13/13 4:45:38 AM#159

I am not basing this on figures, would be good to see some but companies do not tend to announce development costs. The games you mentioned do not seem to have had the funding of GW2. The true 3D ones maybe, but D3?

If an online game of any sort (does not have to be a MMO) does not have true 3D the costs must be far less. Also all this is a gradual change. I am not saying the genre has reached a cliff edge and jumped off, funding is declining slowly.

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

3/13/13 6:21:58 AM#160
Originally posted by Scot

I am not basing this on figures, would be good to see some but companies do not tend to announce development costs. The games you mentioned do not seem to have had the funding of GW2. The true 3D ones maybe, but D3?

If an online game of any sort (does not have to be a MMO) does not have true 3D the costs must be far less. Also all this is a gradual change. I am not saying the genre has reached a cliff edge and jumped off, funding is declining slowly.

Lets not make up stories. Unless you have any sort of data to support that, its all speculation.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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