Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by sapphen

One of the reasons why I made this thread is because I feel bad about some of my judgements on this game.  While I can't help how I feel, I think it's pretty cowardly to critique someone's idea without posting suggestions to fix what I didn't like.  I probably deserve some of the comments here but it doesn't change the fact that a significant portion of the community is not liking ESO's current direction.

This game is not being made for only FvFvF fans but for TES and MMO players.

A significant portion of the community needs to stop complaining and just wait for the 6th Elder Scrolls game.  Too many people are just trying to brute force their desire to play Skyrim as an MMO (technological restrictions be damned).

Technological restrictions does not include faction locks.  There are many things that could've translated into a MMO format (classless system, FPV w/arms and weapons, freedom to explore and choose your faction).

Again, this game isn't made only for you but for TES fans and general MMO players as well.  FvFvF fans are getting what they want at the cost of everything else and focusing only on that community is about as stupid as making a Skyrim Co-Op MMO.

Sounds more like you're just butthurt that the game isn't a ultra hipster sandbox.  Luckly, there are plenty of them already to choose from (they all suck, but there's a reason).

I'm butthurt that the game isn't more like TES, I can not lie about that.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
voluntary flagging systems suck.  they come from heavy pve games like EQ and SWG.

Voluntary flagging is just fine in ESO.  TES isn't a PvP game to begin with, might as well give people the choice to fight or not.  I love PvP but I have no interest in fighting someone who just wants to look around.

Originally posted by wordiz
Nice OP, lets set the bar unreachably high so people can have even more unrealistic expectations. I don't want to insult you, but you're living in a fantasy world already bro, you don't need mmo's.

Lol, I live in an idea world.  I am a father of two, freelance graphic designer and my wife does photography.  I am happy with my life bro, I make ends.  I don't see how you think taking out NPCs and add a PvP flag system is so "unreachable".  Anyway I don't think you was honestly critiquing my work but wanted to take a jab.  I do live in a fantasy world so I really can't be insulted.

Thanks for dropping your little nugget of wisdom onto my thread, I hope you flush after you're done.

Originally posted by sapphen

A trademark of TES games is that the PC gamers get to change the content and experience it their way.  Why not provide players with different ways to experience your game? <- this is only half correct. You cannot change content. For example: I could not ride Paarthurnax into battle any more then I could convince the Blades that they should be friends with him (Skyrim). Yes, TES games are meant to allow you freeform experience, there was still restrictions on what that experience could give.

 Give Players Options

If there are enough people who want to walk around in someone else's territory, then put them together in that territory. Heck make a server with no NPCs whatsoever, populated totally by players.  You could throw some NPC mini-world-bosses around; bears, wolves, town guards (*), and various other non-faction enemies.  Then allow players to flag for Free For All, Faction PvP, or Non-Combat and group with anyone (a group flagged for FFA wouldn't be able to attack each other). <- For the sake of argument, let's say the Devs did this. You'd have the entire map of Tamriel, with all of it's individual regions, with nothing but player population... How many players do you expect to want to play on this type of server setting? 100k-200k? Which one of them is going to stand behind a counter at the local inn and tell me I can sleep there over night and what fee that should be? There is a reason games have NPC's, they do the jobs real players are playing games to escape doing in real life. No one wants to go to work for seven-12 hours per day, then come home, login to their favourite online title and have to work for another 4 hours before going to bed.

 NPCless World

The war, the setting, nothing matters ~ we create our own world.  Players can walk around in different cities or even in Cyrodiil and explore in/out of combat.  (*) Town Guards would be a small group of guards any player, with any faction, can attack.  More guards will not come and they will not attack unless attacked.  At any time players could switch back to the official game with a persistant character. <- Again, see above, but as for being able to switch between an official setting and this npc'less world setting with a persistant character, I'd say a big 'hell naw'. You can effectively walk around a world when players arn't logged in, grab all the loot content you want, switch back to the 'real' world setting, sell for profits because some players wanted that? I don't think so. Even if you design checks and balances to counter this, it's too much work for almost no gameplay gain.

Starting Point

The good news is that you really don't have to do much work.  Just take out all the NPCs and put players in!  If a lot of people are playing this way, then add more content - like the mini-world-bosses or attackable town guards. <- You have the option of changing your starting point, role an alt.

 Enough Room For Everyone

I don't want to dilute your game nor do I want to split up the population BUT there is going to be a lot of people playing. Some people just want to pick a race and run around in an Elder Scrolls World ~ and what better way to make it online than to put them together with other players who want the same thing.  I respect that some players want to adhere to the war setting but the NPCless world will be more of a playground.  This way no one is FORCED to play one particular way. <- I understand this argument, it's the same argument I've had with Jtcgs when I posted on his comments on the faction lock before, but this game is being designed with a war-state mentality. And during wars, you can't openly walk around peoples backyards if their backyard is in a rivals territory! Now, my argument was that content should be developed that still allowed intrusions, but it had to be within the current societal mindset of what ESO is being developed around, I would love to be of the Ebonheart for example, and play spy in the lands of the Aldmeri, but I have no desire to be able to freely frollic through their fields, to me, that'd be immersion breaking.

 To Ends

I respect that there are many who are excited for this game and I don't want to hate anymore.  It would be easy to play off the general TES theme of "play how you want to play" and please multiple players.  DAoC players are custom to the idea of having servers with different rulesets (such as co-op, wpvp, etc).   Do the same thing but with two options; official and explorer, and allow players to switch between them with a persistant character.

I have taken your advice, Sapphen and tried to respond as intelligently as I possibly can, in a succinct debatable manner, feel free to reply because I actually do enjoy people voicing ideas, it's the only way we can experience growth - through challange. That's my $0.02.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
voluntary flagging systems suck.  they come from heavy pve games like EQ and SWG.

I tend to believe they'd serve this games base design fairly well TBH, as well as a TES MMO design.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Gravarg

Originally posted by Tuktz

 

Except what I'm asking for doesn't require them to sacrifice anything to try and please.  They still have the official game, NOTHING has changed.

Actually, it does, and here's why.

First, I'm going to guess that the "simple" changes you propose will involve much more development than you think, especially since there are likely to be interdependent game mechanics that have to be modified that aren't readily apparent.

Second, maintaining multiple code bases is a challenge, and the more options you offer, the more difficult it is to keep everything in sync and working well.  Each new feature or code that goes in to the game now has to be weighed against the separate designs to ensure there are no unintended consequences, and if necessary, make separate versions of each feature to check in independently.  (Would love for Mark to weigh in on how difficult or easy it was for the DAOC team to keep the RVR, FFA PVP, and Open World variants all running at the same time.)

Third, and this is the most important.  I've been developing software systems for over 25 years, and one thing is universal, the end state system contains many more features than can be delivered in a reasonable period of time.  So what teams do is pick a target (or core) set of features and set out to build a first release. 

There normally is a lot more content the Dev's (or users) want in the software, and a plan gets in place to deliver it, frequently over a period of 2 or 3 years to completion. 

Remember, development resources are finite, there's only so many to go around they normally are far too few to deliver the entire content in anything under a multi-year schedule.  (it's not even practical to try to deliver too much content all at once and too rapidly, many a project has crashed and burned with that approach)

So every time the developers are asked to deliver a variant such as you propose, you are diverting resources from core game design to accomodate the alternate plan.  Now, this can be a good idea if the alternate is likely to bring in additional revenue or benefit to justify the cost/diversion. 

And that's the rub, it will be very hard to show that changes such as you have put forth will bring in significant income to justify deviating from the master plan, which in theory should be the one that will provide the most profitable.

I suspect that the number of TES fans that won't play this title because of some missing design feature is pretty small, odds are those folks were rabid fans of single player games and not really MMORPG fans who are more likely to keep playing and paying TESO, which is the real core audiance of the developers.

 

 

Nice post Kyleran.  Spot on.

It's funny how people can have absolutely no clue what's involved in developing systems like this, but still proclaim that "It's easy!"

Common mistake for the uninitiated.

Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Originally posted by Tuktz

Hi, I dont like your game, can you redo a lot of it because I'd like it more that way? ;-)

 

I swear, I'm worried about this community. People are more concerned with what they personally want out of it, than what would be good for the game overall.

Welcome to MMO pre release insanity where everyone has an opinion on how to mould a MMO according to their own personal likes and dislikes.

^^OP doesn't like what he's seeing in this game - my guess is the OP isn't interested in a full fledged mmorpg or has no idea just how neat a concept that is since the bar has fallen so so low.

That being said - I'll plug this game :)

We finally see a three realm mmorpg that believes enough in the RPG part to make the races and classes actually different from each other.  Not since DAoC have I seen a real effort to do this - some same race class faction pvp option stuff sure - but not this. 

I mean...I get to fight people that are...(DRUM ROLL)...different than I am? lol - who would have thought?  I mean when Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings - he didn't really want a story about how Elves, Hobbits and Humans spawn near the shire - and kill each other 1 cornfield away?  That would have been boring!

Thankfully - like Tolkien - the ESO team has an imagination and truly believes in lore and depth of the RPG portion of their MMO.

/thank you

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by sapphen

You guys must not understand how a critique works, saying "worst idea ever" means nothing to me.  I challenge the above responders to answer these questions;

• Why do you think it's the worst idea ever?  It's not, but its not the best either, and for purely finanical reasons developers focus their development efforts on what will likely bring in the most money with the least effort.
• What  would you change to make it better? I'd add FFA PVP to the open world idea you and others have proposed, I don't care if you come in my realm, but I'd better be able to attack you at my pleasure, not yours.
• Do you feel that ESO is currently appeasing the TES fans, MMO players and FvFvF fans? No game can appease all fan groups, they need to focus on their core and try to do it well, and in this case it appears they are making a FvFvF focused MMORPG with some ties to the TES IP and gameplay mechanics. (less emphasis on this last one)

So far I can't tell if it's tools piggybacking each other or if there are serious flaws with my suggestion.  Like my idea or not the blade cuts both ways, they are not making this game only for FvFvF fans but for TES and MMO players as well.  Your flaws are finanical , the Devs must not feel it is finanically sensible to implement your suggestions or they'd do it.

This isn't personal to me, I wouldn't design this game the way Matt did to begin with, I'm just trying to come up with a suggestion to appease multiple people without effect the core game.  If you don't like the idea, you don't have to play it and other than a little bit of resources they could add this option and give it to people who may like something like this.  You still are blowing smoke when you say "a little bit of resources", how do you know this, do you design/deliver games (or any software) for a living? 

I would prefer to alter this suggestion so everyone loves it ~ the idea is up to debate.  If there is something you don't like tell me and we'll see if we can find a solution.  The fool thing would be to think there are no solutions without at least trying with an open mind. - You will never create an idea that everyone loves, there will always be some who agree with you, and many who don't.  The fool thing in this case is to believe otherwise.

But of course, your ideas are always open for debate, this is MMORPG.com that all.

I would agree that in order for this idea to work it would have to be rather simple to add in.

snip

Replying to the part in green.  Unfortunately, it probably won't be simple.  I don't know much about the mechanics for TESO, but your idea depends on too many assumptions:

You are assuming...

...the developers have already built a PVP flagging system, which allows players to flag PvP on/off at will.  Since there is only one zone where all factions can meet, it's more likely that you are always "flagged" for PvP, but are safe in your starting area because enemies can't travel there.  This could mean there isn't a flagging system at all, only faction-based zone restrictions.

...the assumed flagging system can be easily applied to different server rulesets, without causing problems or bugs for the other server rulesets

...the developers can easily make all the NPCs disappear, to be replaced with Player NPCs or World Boss NPCs.

...the game has mechanics in place to compensate for the lack of NPCs (where do you sell stuff, where do you buy stuff, where do you harvest crafting materials?).

...if Player NPCs replace the other NPCs, then A.I. and mechanics need to be implemented for wandering and merchant Player NPCs

...if you're just going to replace the normal NPCs with Player NPCs anyway, then what's the point in getting rid of the normal NPCs?  Why not just keep the NPCs that were already there?  Why waste time and resources on something this superficial?

As much as I like the Player NPC mechanics from AoW (and I think it would fit perfectly for TESO), it's just not realistic to expect this to show up in TESO by release (unless they have already been working on it).  This certainly wouldn't be implemented exclusively for a single server ruleset, it would be implemented as part of the game's core mechanics, and much later after release.

I do agree with you though, I like the idea of Player NPCs for TESO.

Your intentions are good, but you're assuming too much.  On the surface, the ideas might seem simple, but clearly there's a lot of other things that need to be considered.

Originally posted by sapphen

A trademark of TES games is that the PC gamers get to change the content and experience it their way.  Why not provide players with different ways to experience your game?

 First of all this is not a traditional TES game. This is a mmo based on TES lore, not TES mechanics or features.

Give Players Options

If there are enough people who want to walk around in someone else's territory, then put them together in that territory. Heck make a server with no NPCs whatsoever, populated totally by players.  You could throw some NPC mini-world-bosses around; bears, wolves, town guards (*), and various other non-faction enemies.  Then allow players to flag for Free For All, Faction PvP, or Non-Combat and group with anyone (a group flagged for FFA wouldn't be able to attack each other).

 Ok NPCs are in there not only for eye candy. They are also progress pacers (questing), checks and balances for the in-game economy (repairs, vendors, various other cash sinks) and most important bring ambience to a otherwise dull world. If the population of actual players dip then you run the risk of players always logging into a empty lifeless world scattered with a few basic npcs. You know I've played a mmo with absolutely NO npcs. It's called Onverse. And everytime I logged in it always seemed dead and void of any activity. Needless to say it was NOT a pretty sight. And with the idea you're proposing, cities would be pointless. No one would have the need to gather to them because there would be no npcs to interact with like traditional mmos.

Also your flagging system would require more than a toggle switch. How often can I switch? Why should I be force to switch if the leader of my group is set to FFA? If I cast a beneficial spell on someone, what dictates how I'm flagged thereafter and for how long? Can I switch in the middle of combat? What type of items/cash is lootable in each mode? Governing variables have to be worked out for even such a simple request. And what seems simple in appearance can often be very complex and costly under closer scrutiny.

 

NPCless World

The war, the setting, nothing matters ~ we create our own world.  Players can walk around in different cities or even in Cyrodiil and explore in/out of combat.  (*) Town Guards would be a small group of guards any player, with any faction, can attack.  More guards will not come and they will not attack unless attacked.  At any time players could switch back to the official game with a persistant character.

 Like I stated above. What would be the point of having a city if there is no NPC ambience or functionality? Tourist attractions for the few players that wander into them? Can you interact with then in the way NPCs could? That would require more work. Or would they only be lifeless movie sets? Town Guards you say? Guards that can be explioted by shady players that trigger their aggro to "assist" in killing someone flagged for faction PvP? What if the player being attacked cast a defensive spell that reflects damage back onto the attacker and a NPC guard attacks automatically and triggers the spell. Now that player, with no intention of fighting a NPC guard, has to fight it and a player explioting the system. Unless, of course, you spend extra time and cost tweaking the base system.

Starting Point

The good news is that you really don't have to do much work.  Just take out all the NPCs and put players in!  If a lot of people are playing this way, then add more content - like the mini-world-bosses or attackable town guards. 

 Says you. You, as you so graciously stated, don't really know how much work is involved. Nor can you predict that such a sever would even be popular enough to warrant such a questionable endeavor in the first place. Like I said, I've played mmos with no/limited npcs (Onverse, Asheron's Call 2) and they both failed have you? Better yet how would you handle players with different playing times? Or is your only goal is to create a big empty void with a few scattered mobs, mini bosses and town guards for players to wander around in and get joy solely out of exploring? Cause honestly that sounds like it would get boring really fast.

Enough Room For Everyone

I don't want to dilute your game nor do I want to split up the population BUT there is going to be a lot of people playing.   Some people just want to pick a race and run around in an Elder Scrolls World ~ and what better way to make it online than to put them together with other players who want the same thing.  I respect that some players want to adhere to the war setting but the NPCless world will be more of a playground.  This way no one is FORCED to play one particular way.

 But dilute the population is the only thing that would lead to. Are they not talking about megaservers? Why would they create something that promotes and actively pull player focus off the one thing they are trying to build the game's story and the game itself around? Wouldn't that be counterproductive? Better yet. Wouldn't that send a clear message that they don't have a clue what they doing by switching gears so suddenly? If FvFvF is meant to be the main endgame focal point instead of raids, would that not be a very productive way to go? Because your way seems to lead to a similar path of players eventually needing to be spoonfed more content rather than a active self sustaining goal of player created conflict. At least it would lead to giving the dev enough time to think of improving or adding features rather than going straight to work on a PvE heavy expansion. Like what most mmo devs do after a game's release.

Look. Because no one has played yet. We cannot say for 100% probability that every player will be forced to PvP at endgame. Even in PvE focused games not everyone is forced to raid at endgame. So we'll all have to wait and see how this pans out. I know in the past when I played DAoC. I never had a desire to explore Mid or Hib areas until much later. I was always quite satisfied with all the land I had available to explore in Albion. And very rarely ventured into the frontlines to fight. My "way to play" was not in line with the focus point of the game. And it didn't stop me from enjoying myself one bit.

To Ends

I respect that there are many who are excited for this game and I don't want to hate anymore.  It would be easy to play off the general TES theme of "play how you want to play" and please multiple players.  DAoC players are custom to the idea of having servers with different rulesets (such as co-op, wpvp, etc).   Do the same thing but with two options; official and explorer, and allow players to switch between them with a persistant character.

You're looking at this the wrong way. Often I read people here speaking of players that want things catered to them. Usually they are referring to fictional younger mmo players who don't appreciate how difficult or deep mmos were back in the day. But I don't recall players demanding so much from those older mmos when they were on the verge of release. Nope back then we played it first, then demanded change if need be. Today we demand change and have no intention of really playing in the first place.

Originally posted by gigat

It's funny how people can have absolutely no clue what's involved in developing systems like this, but still proclaim that "It's easy!"

LOL, I never pretended that I knew what it took to develop a system like I suggested    I just said that it sounds like a feasible task.  If I was actually working with a team of developers, I would be talking to a professional programmer.

Originally posted by gigat

Your intentions are good, but you're assuming too much.  On the surface, the ideas might seem simple, but clearly there's a lot of other things that need to be considered.

That's a fair critique, thank you for civil response.

Originally posted by Ramonski7

You're looking at this the wrong way. Often I read people here speaking of players that want things catered to them. Usually they are referring to fictional younger mmo players who don't appreciate how difficult or deep mmos were back in the day. But I don't recall players demanding so much from those older mmos when they were on the verge of release. Nope back then we played it first, then demanded change if need be. Today we demand change and have no intention of really playing in the first place.

Thank you for taking the time to write a response.

I'm not talking about making the whole game NPCless ~ I'm just saying have a version with no NPCs that players can switch between on a persistant character.  It does sound crazy but if someone just wants to explorer an enemy's city then they could do so in/out of combat.  Could you imagine if a lot of people liked to play this way?  It would be like a 'puesdo' sandbox for players who are looking for this type of game.

I'm also not demanding that they change anything.  It's just a suggestion, good or bad.  I've been doing my damnest to keep this thread civil and you say that I'm demanding?

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by gigat

It's funny how people can have absolutely no clue what's involved in developing systems like this, but still proclaim that "It's easy!"

LOL, I never pretended that I knew what it took to develop a system like I suggested    I just said that it sounds like a feasible task.  If I was actually working with a team of developers, I would be talking to a professional programmer.

Lol  I actually hear that almost every day at work!  Our sales reps always promise the sun to clients, and expect the developers and technicians to deliver on those promises.  The worst part is the sales reps always tell us "This should be easy, no problem!"

It's kind of like telling a mechanic that it's easy to replace the clutch in my transmission.  The idea is simple, but when you actually break it down, it's a pain in the ass!

Anyway, I edited my other post, wanted to say that I agree with you on the Player NPC idea.  I think that would fit in TESO

Originally posted by Monstre0auS

But there is no need for NPCs in this version.  If you want to visit a shop then you would switch to the official game server.

What in the world made you think I would suggest a system that would allow someone to take all of your stuff while logged off?  I have never said anything remotely like this, that would be completely retarded.

Upon reflection I understand there would have to be something to do (although the official game should be the main way to progress in all aspects; PvE and PvP).

I still relate the suggestion to the classic PvE, PvP, or Co-op servers.  Do you not think it would be cool to switch between PvE and PvP servers on one character (back in the day)?

It wouldn't be themepark or sandbox but more like a playground.  You could mimic TES single player games and just keep walking in a direction (no faction bountries, no Cyrodiil war).  The cool part is that you could run into other players doing the same thing!  With the option to flag for PvP you are giving players the oppertunity to communicate before attacking each other... you may even make a new friend.

Developers should put all their efforts into the official game but make a NPCless "Explorer Server" players can switch between.  If you want a break from leveling or want to check out the enemy faction before creating an alt, then you can switch to explorer mode and run down there!!!

Personally I'm shocked at how many people doesn't find that cool as hell ~ not as the main focus but just an option if you wanted.

Originally posted by gigat

Originally posted by sapphen

LOL, I never pretended that I knew what it took to develop a system like I suggested    I just said that it sounds like a feasible task.  If I was actually working with a team of developers, I would be talking to a professional programmer.

Lol  I actually hear that almost every day at work!  Our sales reps always promise the sun to clients, and expect the developers and technicians to deliver on those promises.  The worst part is the sales reps always tell us "This should be easy, no problem!"

It's kind of like telling a mechanic that it's easy to replace the clutch in my transmission.  The idea is simple, but when you actually break it down, it's a pain in the ass!

Anyway, I edited my other post, wanted to say that I agree with you on the Player NPC idea.  I think that would fit in TESO

When I was designing websites, I would drive the programmers crazy with questions.  I usually based my assumptions on what I've seen others do... but in the end I made a lot of changes and they pulled off some miracles.

Age of Wushu have a neat Player NPC system.  You log off your character and they get a local job such as fishing or waiting tables.  It would be neat if they could do something like this in ESO, in any capacity (but I can't help to think how cool it would be to have a player populated market - working kind of like vendors - instead of having an auction house or NPC vendors).  One day we may be accpeting quests from players.

Originally posted by evilastro
Sounds terrible. I am glad you have no say whatsoever in the game.

Me too.