Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Eir_S

I pretty much feel the same way.  I'm playing Tera a bit right now but I probably won't keep going because apart from some things I think the game could be doing better, I know that elitism rules in end game, and I don't want to just level a character to level a character.  MMO's in general are seeming more pointless to me.  Even in GW2, the dungeons are fun and thanks to the "everyone is equal" mindset, every single group I've been in has been pleasant (never happened this often in gear treadmill games), but you're really grinding just to look different. 

In my case, everyone is so busy rushing to endgame and I have zero interest in endgame at all.  I'd rather explore and take my time and enjoy myself and finding anyone that isn't running as fast as they can down the road is virtually impossible.  Modern MMOs tend to appeal to people who are not only willing,  but happy to just use people to get their XP and loot, when people stop being useful, they get jettisoned.

Reminds me of the time I got kicked from a guild in WoW that I'd been tanking ICC for for months because I won too many rolls. lol

People I considered pretty friendly overall turned on me like a pack of wild dogs over some stupid virtual junk.

Did they turn on your because you won too many rolls or did you fail to pass on rolling for gear that you didn't really need or they felt was better suited to other people in the raid? 

That certainly could cause some hard feelings which is why most raid guids went with a DKP system to better balance loot distribution.  My main guild in WOW ran a combination of DKP with Loot Council, which pretty much decided who got what loot and when. 

The goal was to make sure loot was distributed in a manner most likely to make the guild succeed rather than focus on any one person or group.

I too gave up on modern MMO dungeon running because the endless grind for loot isn't what I really enjoy, but not because I was really angry with the mechanics of the distribution system.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Cephus404

MMORPG.com and other similar forums, yes.  The people who enjoy these games don't have time to sit on forums, they're too busy playing the games so the forums end up looking very lopsided.

Yeah, it's pretty clear which camp you hail from.

Me, I'm in the group that still enjoys MMORPG's, just wish they'd start making them like they use to.

Good.

I've made it very clear that I don't play MMOs anymore, although it isn't becase there aren't good games out there, it's because I have to play with a shit-ton of assholes whenever I do play and it's a lot more fun to play SP games when I have a chance (playing Far Cry 3 right now) than to deal with the immature, race-to-endgame idiots that I'd get stuck with otherwise.

I don't want them to make games like they used to, I just wish people would be better than they are today.

Maybe, just maybe, the game designs of the early titles brought the best out in people rather than cater to their worst instincts.

I don't think people really are any better or worse than years ago, I think the games reward the wrong sort of behavior and don't reward positive actions appropriately.

So yes, I do blame the games not the players.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by nate1980

When my father was growing up, classic rock was the music young people listened to. His parents listend to something earlier than that and thought classic rock was trash. When I was growing up, alternative rock was what was popular and it's what I still a big fan of. Before I graduated High School rap became popular and still is. Am I supposed to quit loving rock and become a fan of rap to "get with the times?"

But that's really the same thing.  Music is popular when it is popular.  It's fine if you like a particular style of music, but to expect anyone to keep making that music after it's stopped being popular is a bit absurd.  If you want new music, you have to change with the times or you have to accept that your time is past and deal with it.

 

And yet the Rolling Stones are around the top of the gross earnings charts most years. Just because fashions change, it doesn't mean there is not big money to be made providing new versions of older quality entertainment.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Cephus404

MMORPG.com and other similar forums, yes.  The people who enjoy these games don't have time to sit on forums, they're too busy playing the games so the forums end up looking very lopsided.

Yeah, it's pretty clear which camp you hail from.

Me, I'm in the group that still enjoys MMORPG's, just wish they'd start making them like they use to.

Good.

I've made it very clear that I don't play MMOs anymore, although it isn't becase there aren't good games out there, it's because I have to play with a shit-ton of assholes whenever I do play and it's a lot more fun to play SP games when I have a chance (playing Far Cry 3 right now) than to deal with the immature, race-to-endgame idiots that I'd get stuck with otherwise.

I don't want them to make games like they used to, I just wish people would be better than they are today.

Maybe, just maybe, the game designs of the early titles brought the best out in people rather than cater to their worst instincts.

I don't think people really are any better or worse than years ago, I think the games reward the wrong sort of behavior and don't reward positive actions appropriately.

So yes, I do blame the games not the players.

 

The reason the games changed was because of the players.  The old-school games were made specifically for a very small niche audience.  There were not enough people in that niche audience to fuel an entire genre of games.  In order to appeal to a wider audience, they started to appeal to what the much larger mainsteam audience wanted.  The games didn't make the audience, the audience made the games.  Had the developers not expanded to a larger audience, the MMO marketplace would have eventually died because there just wasn't enough money in that niche market to keep these companies afloat in the long term.

Originally posted by nate1980

 

Maybe because MMORPG's are something they are passionate about and this is their chosen hobby? A hobby that perhaps was changed from something they loved into something they can hardly recognize? Believe it or not, developers read gaming forums to keep tabs of what people are raving for. If everyone just quit the genre and never looked back, the developers won't know what players are looking for in a MMORPG. It's better to provide constructive feedback for developers and discuss new ideas, than to just quit and walk away.

Devs are more likely to notice recent big hits like WOT, than ranting on forums, who want to go back to 10+ year old tried-and-failed ideas.

The real MMORPG's for the most part are dead. MMORPG's have de-evolved to nothing more than mere online RPG's. If you would have asked me 13-15 years ago what this genre would have been, I can tell you this, I would have been dead wrong.

On the other hand what If you would have asked me about  RPGs with online features would be like, I would have nailed it.

I thought single player rpgs would evolve to something the current MMORPG genre represents now. I had no idea the mmorpg genre would fall so far.   I still have faith to see some real MMORPGS's there was a small market for them once, there still is a small market for them now. A real MMORPG is and will always be a niche game.

Originally posted by toddze

The real MMORPG's for the most part are dead. MMORPG's have de-evolved to nothing more than mere online RPG's. If you would have asked me 13-15 years ago what this genre would have been, I can tell you this, I would have been dead wrong.

On the other hand what If you would have asked me about  RPGs with online features would be like, I would have nailed it.

I thought single player rpgs would evolve to something the current MMORPG genre represents now. I had no idea the mmorpg genre would fall so far.   I still have faith to see some real MMORPGS's there was a small market for them once, there still is a small market for them now. A real MMORPG is and will always be a niche game.

"real MMORPG"? All genre changes and evolve according to customers' preferences.

When you say "devolve", it means "evolve" for many.

Good online RPG with some MMO features are fun games for many. There is nothing wrong with them. In fact, it is not just online RPG ... there is actually many directions MMO-ish games are going. PvP arena games. Online RPGs. World shooters. The future is very interesting.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by toddze

The real MMORPG's for the most part are dead. MMORPG's have de-evolved to nothing more than mere online RPG's. If you would have asked me 13-15 years ago what this genre would have been, I can tell you this, I would have been dead wrong.

On the other hand what If you would have asked me about  RPGs with online features would be like, I would have nailed it.

I thought single player rpgs would evolve to something the current MMORPG genre represents now. I had no idea the mmorpg genre would fall so far.   I still have faith to see some real MMORPGS's there was a small market for them once, there still is a small market for them now. A real MMORPG is and will always be a niche game.

"real MMORPG"? All genre changes and evolve according to customers' preferences.

When you say "devolve", it means "evolve" for many.

Good online RPG with some MMO features are fun games for many. There is nothing wrong with them. In fact, it is not just online RPG ... there is actually many directions MMO-ish games are going. PvP arena games. Online RPGs. World shooters. The future is very interesting.

 

Yeah, they have evolved into games that people jump in and out of, its great!  Not like 95+% have been a huge disappointment or anything. 

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Cephus404

MMORPG.com and other similar forums, yes.  The people who enjoy these games don't have time to sit on forums, they're too busy playing the games so the forums end up looking very lopsided.

Yeah, it's pretty clear which camp you hail from.

Me, I'm in the group that still enjoys MMORPG's, just wish they'd start making them like they use to.

Good.

I've made it very clear that I don't play MMOs anymore, although it isn't becase there aren't good games out there, it's because I have to play with a shit-ton of assholes whenever I do play and it's a lot more fun to play SP games when I have a chance (playing Far Cry 3 right now) than to deal with the immature, race-to-endgame idiots that I'd get stuck with otherwise.

I don't want them to make games like they used to, I just wish people would be better than they are today.

Maybe, just maybe, the game designs of the early titles brought the best out in people rather than cater to their worst instincts.

I don't think people really are any better or worse than years ago, I think the games reward the wrong sort of behavior and don't reward positive actions appropriately.

So yes, I do blame the games not the players.

 

The reason the games changed was because of the players.  The old-school games were made specifically for a very small niche audience.  There were not enough people in that niche audience to fuel an entire genre of games.  In order to appeal to a wider audience, they started to appeal to what the much larger mainsteam audience wanted.  The games didn't make the audience, the audience made the games.  Had the developers not expanded to a larger audience, the MMO marketplace would have eventually died because there just wasn't enough money in that niche market to keep these companies afloat in the long term.

The market may not have grown to the huge proportion that its at ttoday, but I don't think there's any doubt that the "niche" market could easily have supported a decent number of providers.  EVE proves every day that the niche market can be viable and profitable, even if you only appeal to 200K players.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by toddze

The real MMORPG's for the most part are dead. MMORPG's have de-evolved to nothing more than mere online RPG's. If you would have asked me 13-15 years ago what this genre would have been, I can tell you this, I would have been dead wrong.

On the other hand what If you would have asked me about  RPGs with online features would be like, I would have nailed it.

I thought single player rpgs would evolve to something the current MMORPG genre represents now. I had no idea the mmorpg genre would fall so far.   I still have faith to see some real MMORPGS's there was a small market for them once, there still is a small market for them now. A real MMORPG is and will always be a niche game.

"real MMORPG"? All genre changes and evolve according to customers' preferences.

When you say "devolve", it means "evolve" for many.

Good online RPG with some MMO features are fun games for many. There is nothing wrong with them. In fact, it is not just online RPG ... there is actually many directions MMO-ish games are going. PvP arena games. Online RPGs. World shooters. The future is very interesting.

 

MMORPG's have not evolved, the went backwards to fill the need for single player online RPG's which they have done. I expected single player rpg's to evolve to fill this game market not the other way around.

I am not saying those games should not exist, I am just saying MMORPG's went backwards to fill this. These online rpg's that are called MMO's most definatly should exist, there is a massive market for them. There is also a market for niche mmo genre like there always was. Some of the nich MMORPG's are the highest profiting in the MMO genre to date. FFXI was insanely profitable. YOu can not say the same about the ones being released today. They use gimik titles to sell box copies and they are a ghost town 6 months after release. TESO is the next one on the list. 

I am not going to list what MMORPG's features were, we have all heard it a 1000X For the niche market who started MMO's we feel neglected. There has not been a decent atempt at making what we feel is an MMO. Again there is still a niche market for them. But the kids that ignore it and say they could never work again and should never be made have no clue what they are talking about. Games should be made for every market. FFA PVP, Hardcore PVE, you name it games should be made. We all should not be forced to  choose to play the same linear themepark on speed rails or not play at all. 

Originally posted by Kyleran

 

The market may not have grown to the huge proportion that its at ttoday, but I don't think there's any doubt that the "niche" market could easily have supported a decent number of providers.  EVE proves every day that the niche market can be viable and profitable, even if you only appeal to 200K players.

 

 But.. But wait! who wants to make a niche game that only draws in 20 to 100 k users when they can copy the mainstream of existing models? The Indie? Whoa! Wait a sec here.. The indie is the small fish and first to get eaten by the sharks when they do try so why the fuck not just move to another more lucrative market and let this genre die its death of dissatisfaction?

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by nate1980

When my father was growing up, classic rock was the music young people listened to. His parents listend to something earlier than that and thought classic rock was trash. When I was growing up, alternative rock was what was popular and it's what I still a big fan of. Before I graduated High School rap became popular and still is. Am I supposed to quit loving rock and become a fan of rap to "get with the times?"

But that's really the same thing.  Music is popular when it is popular.  It's fine if you like a particular style of music, but to expect anyone to keep making that music after it's stopped being popular is a bit absurd. 

Then artists must be absurd, because there's still a fair number of them out there making music that doesn't fall into the 'pop' category.

If you want new music, you have to change with the times or you have to accept that your time is past and deal with it.

This is completely untrue.  I may not be able to find the music I like as readily on the radio stations as I was when it was 'popular,' but it's still being made by new artists.  A little (very little) digging will turn up an insane number of internet radio stations, musical podcasts, and independent releases catering to literally any genre, no matter how niche or mainstream it may be.

My point is that people like what they like, and to expect them to like something different because that's what is popular/what the masses like is ignorant.

It doesn't matter what people like, they have to be realistic as to their expectations.

So many people on the forums are just not being realistic.

'Realistic expectations' would have shot down the Apollo program before it even started.  I'll take idealism over that anyday.

Originally posted by toddze

I am not going to list what MMORPG's features were, we have all heard it a 1000X For the niche market who started MMO's we feel neglected. There has not been a decent atempt at making what we feel is an MMO. Again there is still a niche market for them. But the kids that ignore it and say they could never work again and should never be made have no clue what they are talking about. Games should be made for every market. FFA PVP, Hardcore PVE, you name it games should be made. We all should not be forced to  choose to play the same linear themepark on speed rails or not play at all. 

Why? Not all markets are big enough to support investments. Would you bet your career on a market that is known to be small?

And you are not forced to play anything. You mentioned it yourself .. you can "not play at all". There are plenty of other entertainment.

Originally posted by KaosProphet

If you want new music, you have to change with the times or you have to accept that your time is past and deal with it.

This is completely untrue.  I may not be able to find the music I like as readily on the radio stations as I was when it was 'popular,' but it's still being made by new artists.  A little (very little) digging will turn up an insane number of internet radio stations, musical podcasts, and independent releases catering to literally any genre, no matter how niche or mainstream it may be.

Music is a poor analogy to MMO. The cost of entry is low. A garage with a guitar is enough for a musician to start. You can't do that with MMOs.

I love mmorpgs, just dont like the new aged garbage. Too simplistic, easy, no creativity, no exploration, no excitting feelings any longer, rewards for the trvial tasks now, dont feel like i earned anything, maps are too small and i feel claustrophobic. I just think mmorpgs and console rpgs should be kept seperate and each person needs to find their right game. I like them wide open, lots of freedom, being able to climb the mountain peak just to see whats there, be able to craft everything in game, to have social interaction, to rely on your community brothers. MMORPG's have changed a lot, im not willing to change with them. Ill just wait for one to come along that suites me (and there are a few coming woooot).

Originally posted by Onomas

I love mmorpgs, just dont like the new aged garbage. Too simplistic, easy, no creativity, no exploration, no excitting feelings any longer, rewards for the trvial tasks now, dont feel like i earned anything, maps are too small and i feel claustrophobic. I just think mmorpgs and console rpgs should be kept seperate and each person needs to find their right game. I like them wide open, lots of freedom, being able to climb the mountain peak just to see whats there, be able to craft everything in game, to have social interaction, to rely on your community brothers. MMORPG's have changed a lot, im not willing to change with them. Ill just wait for one to come along that suites me (and there are a few coming woooot).

That is a very narrow minded view. A lot of innovation and new kind of fun can arise from combining ideas from different genre. Borderland is such a good game because it combines FPS & RPG elements.

There is no reason why MMO elements cannot be put into online RPGs, and vice versa. And in fact, it is happening. D3 has AH, and crafting. PoE has open zones. Destiny is going to do a new kind of online matching. PS2 is a FPS with open world pvp. More variety is good for the industry.

But i do agree each person need to find their right game.

Not narrow minded at all, mmorpgs were made to expand on rpgs to make them more than what rpgs are/were. Now they are blending the two again and dumbing down mmorpgs and making them nothing more than console rpgs. You are basicaly destroying what mmorpgs stand for. Not anrrow minded at all, narrow minded would be someone wanting their mmorpgs to play and act like their simplistic, linear, non-creative singleplayer games. 

Originally posted by eddieg50
MMO's are still  good, but when I compare them to games like Skyrim, dishonored, Dragon age, Baldurs Gate SOM, The Witcher 1 and 2, Mass effect, Dead space, Gothic 1 and 2, etc they just do not hold a candle.  I think most people today play MMO's for the social aspect because the game play is a C or a B at best, why play those when you can play an A game

I agree, all of those games are infinitely better than any MMO that has ever existed.  The problem is, games of that caliber are relatively rare and they don't last that long, I can play through most of those games in a few weeks at most, I can play through every game you listed in less than 6 months, what do I do then?  I think MMOs largely fill those gaps, they potentially give you the same general kind of experience without having to shell out $60 2-3 times a month.  However, you are right, the overwhelming majority of MMOs are really low quality and adding in thousands of idiots running around telling fart jokes doesn't help.

Originally posted by tixylix

I mean I haven't liked a single one since 2005 and have been looking in the genre ever since. My point is however that the MMORPG genre has evolved into this WoW clone genre, 

And thus where I stopped reading. Sorry but with that mentality I just really can't see you being a very good judge of games. For one, WoW can easily be cloned of games like Everquest in the regards you mentioned as it took a LOT (I mean A LOT) of aspects from that game, which in turn Everquest took elements from games like Ultima Online and so on and so on. We can go on and on.

If your judgement of a game is based off doing 'tasks' then honestly, you probably don't want to play 90% of the games out there, not just MMOs but any game in general. Hell, even Simcity I skimmed by is basically objective base. Eve Online, hell, no offense but if your bored of games where you got to 'kill stuff' you basically entered into the territory of repetition.

I think what is 'disatisfying' you is deeper root then the repetition factor as you seem to have played a lot of games that do just that, even to degrees far worst then most MMos. I think your just not satisfied with the Fantasy Setting rather then MMos. You still enjoy that repetition, you just don't like the fantasy worlds that many games push. Your looking for a modern/futuristic game instead of a traditional fantasy MMo setting, perhaps even with some sandbox elements being mixed in it. 

You aren't sick of MMOs, you are sick of FANTASY games.