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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » I just realized, I don't like MMORPGs any more!

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228 posts found
  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1838

3/08/13 4:21:01 PM#121
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Loke666

I have a feeling that the genre will be very different 5 years from now.

The "genre" is already very different. I think people have lost sight of games that are like MMOs, but not quite, and MMO ideas going into other genre.

If you use a strict definition of what a MMO is (by its traditional characteristics), then the genre will never really change, because you will just classify something new NOT a MMO, and thus outside of the genre. That is the problem here. People are too narrow.

If you include games that are like MMOs, or similar to part of MMOs, or take MMO features, then the "genre" has been changing and expanding. Some examples:

- ARPG with MMO featuers. Traditionally, ARPG are like MMOs anyway (focus on combat & progression). D3 add AH & crafting. PoE adds persistent zones. Personally i think these games are very close to combat centric MMOs, and don't evaluate them differently.

- MOBA and other instanced based pvp games (like WOT, and Star Conflict) .. essentially takes MMO progression, arena combat, and focus on that.

- "world war games" like PS2 .. essentially take the open world pvp idea and runs with it.

- instanced pve games (DDO, vindictice, SD gundam ...) .. just do dungeon runs, and nothing else.

- Destiny is going to be a new kind of online game with some MMO features (i.e. shared world shooter)

You're missing the point of what makes a MMO a MMO. MMO is the acronym that symbolizes that this game will have a persistant world and that you'll be able to play with thousands of other players on the same server. That's all it takes to earn the MMO tag. Now, the RPG, FPS, RTS, and etc tags that go along with it hold the same requirements to hold them as their single player counterparts. 

The problem many people on this site have is that developers are copying features from other games, making new games feel exactly alike older games. They're mistakingly thinking that those features is what defines a MMORPG, which is wrong. The term was defined well over a decade ago and hasn't changed. If developers want to breathe life into the MMO genre, they'll have to innovate and stop copying the same features from previous games.

  vocah1234

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 2

3/08/13 4:25:03 PM#122

I started playing mmo's years back and have to agree. The earlier pre 2004 mmo's where better. since then not much has been able to hold my attention except lotro.

 

But when companies like Funcom release a steaming pile of crap like secret world with bugs etc. and take forever to fix anything, eventually caving into the FTP option 6 months in. It really makes it hard to like the genre at all. Sick of being ripped of by promises from dev's that they dont follow through on and sick of cash grabbing companies.

 

When did mmo's go from being a fun, group based adventure to a half working, rushed money grab

 

I have gone back to playing single player games and non mmo multiplayer games and wont be forking out any more cash on mmo's any time soon or until a games proven to be good. Throwing away $250 on a lifetime account for TSW based on promises was the last nail in the mmo coffin for me.

  Tindale111

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/21/12
Posts: 190

3/08/13 4:25:10 PM#123
loved the trip down nostalgia lane ,remember logging on with 3 other newbies in kelethin getting drunk and 2 fell out of trees :) but yeah mmos have gone a bit predictable but im always hoping to find a gem lets hope its the Elder scrolls :)
  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4874

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/08/13 4:26:06 PM#124

I find it interesting to note that while MMORPG was coined by Garriot, MMOG was around long long before.  All he did was add the roleplaying part to the name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_massively_multiplayer_online_games

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Tindale111

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/21/12
Posts: 190

3/08/13 4:27:22 PM#125
Originally posted by nate1980
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Loke666

I have a feeling that the genre will be very different 5 years from now.

The "genre" is already very different. I think people have lost sight of games that are like MMOs, but not quite, and MMO ideas going into other genre.

If you use a strict definition of what a MMO is (by its traditional characteristics), then the genre will never really change, because you will just classify something new NOT a MMO, and thus outside of the genre. That is the problem here. People are too narrow.

If you include games that are like MMOs, or similar to part of MMOs, or take MMO features, then the "genre" has been changing and expanding. Some examples:

- ARPG with MMO featuers. Traditionally, ARPG are like MMOs anyway (focus on combat & progression). D3 add AH & crafting. PoE adds persistent zones. Personally i think these games are very close to combat centric MMOs, and don't evaluate them differently.

- MOBA and other instanced based pvp games (like WOT, and Star Conflict) .. essentially takes MMO progression, arena combat, and focus on that.

- "world war games" like PS2 .. essentially take the open world pvp idea and runs with it.

- instanced pve games (DDO, vindictice, SD gundam ...) .. just do dungeon runs, and nothing else.

- Destiny is going to be a new kind of online game with some MMO features (i.e. shared world shooter)

You're missing the point of what makes a MMO a MMO. MMO is the acronym that symbolizes that this game will have a persistant world and that you'll be able to play with thousands of other players on the same server. That's all it takes to earn the MMO tag. Now, the RPG, FPS, RTS, and etc tags that go along with it hold the same requirements to hold them as their single player counterparts. 

The problem many people on this site have is that developers are copying features from other games, making new games feel exactly alike older games. They're mistakingly thinking that those features is what defines a MMORPG, which is wrong. The term was defined well over a decade ago and hasn't changed. If developers want to breathe life into the MMO genre, they'll have to innovate and stop copying the same features from previous games.

 

  GoldenArrow

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 1134

3/08/13 4:30:13 PM#126

My fire for MMORPGs has died aswell.

Every P2P mmorpg copies WoW to get enough subs to stay alive.

If a developer tries to do something different they don't get enough subs and sooner or later turn the game into a poorly designed F2P.

All of the F2P/B2P MMORPGs are completely unbalanced and even the few gems have ruined cash shops.

I'll probably return to MMORPGs one day when a game with:

 

P2P

Only cosmetical microtransactions.

Deep yet casual friendly endgame (No forced dailies etc.)

One character game, no need for alts.

No artificial content progression limits, i.e no dungeon lockouts.

Huge character progression in sense of skills/items/status.

 

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4874

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/08/13 4:33:20 PM#127
Originally posted by vocah1234

I started playing mmo's years back and have to agree. The earlier pre 2004 mmo's where better. since then not much has been able to hold my attention except lotro.

 

But when companies like Funcom release a steaming pile of crap like secret world with bugs etc. and take forever to fix anything, eventually caving into the FTP option 6 months in. It really makes it hard to like the genre at all. Sick of being ripped of by promises from dev's that they dont follow through on and sick of cash grabbing companies.

 

When did mmo's go from being a fun, group based adventure to a half working, rushed money grab

 

I have gone back to playing single player games and non mmo multiplayer games and wont be forking out any more cash on mmo's any time soon or until a games proven to be good. Throwing away $250 on a lifetime account for TSW based on promises was the last nail in the mmo coffin for me.

Old MMO's were released in far worse states IMO. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  GoldenArrow

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 1134

3/08/13 5:11:31 PM#128
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by vocah1234

I started playing mmo's years back and have to agree. The earlier pre 2004 mmo's where better. since then not much has been able to hold my attention except lotro.

 

But when companies like Funcom release a steaming pile of crap like secret world with bugs etc. and take forever to fix anything, eventually caving into the FTP option 6 months in. It really makes it hard to like the genre at all. Sick of being ripped of by promises from dev's that they dont follow through on and sick of cash grabbing companies.

 

When did mmo's go from being a fun, group based adventure to a half working, rushed money grab

 

I have gone back to playing single player games and non mmo multiplayer games and wont be forking out any more cash on mmo's any time soon or until a games proven to be good. Throwing away $250 on a lifetime account for TSW based on promises was the last nail in the mmo coffin for me.

Old MMO's were released in far worse states IMO. 

While that may be true, it took you months to even think about finding another game to play.

Nowdays you can bust through the content in 2 weeks with casual gaming only to get blocked by artificial content gates.

Most of the MMORPGs nowdays are piss easy and that's not only because "players have gotten better".

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

3/08/13 5:41:00 PM#129
Originally posted by Psychow
Originally posted by Cephus404

 That's about as silly as saying "for automobile enthusiasts who enjoy crank-starting their cars, there is nothing and that's surprising!"  No it isn't, these are just people who haven't moved on with the times.  We should expect there to be little or nothing for them, they represent a minuscule minority.

 

Yet they are the loudest and first to attack on any game as being utter crap because it wasn't made just for them...I wonder if the active MMORPG.com community represents close to 100% of them...it's possible....

MMORPG.com and other similar forums, yes.  The people who enjoy these games don't have time to sit on forums, they're too busy playing the games so the forums end up looking very lopsided.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/08/13 5:48:38 PM#130
Originally posted by nate1980
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Loke666

I have a feeling that the genre will be very different 5 years from now.

The "genre" is already very different. I think people have lost sight of games that are like MMOs, but not quite, and MMO ideas going into other genre.

If you use a strict definition of what a MMO is (by its traditional characteristics), then the genre will never really change, because you will just classify something new NOT a MMO, and thus outside of the genre. That is the problem here. People are too narrow.

If you include games that are like MMOs, or similar to part of MMOs, or take MMO features, then the "genre" has been changing and expanding. Some examples:

- ARPG with MMO featuers. Traditionally, ARPG are like MMOs anyway (focus on combat & progression). D3 add AH & crafting. PoE adds persistent zones. Personally i think these games are very close to combat centric MMOs, and don't evaluate them differently.

- MOBA and other instanced based pvp games (like WOT, and Star Conflict) .. essentially takes MMO progression, arena combat, and focus on that.

- "world war games" like PS2 .. essentially take the open world pvp idea and runs with it.

- instanced pve games (DDO, vindictice, SD gundam ...) .. just do dungeon runs, and nothing else.

- Destiny is going to be a new kind of online game with some MMO features (i.e. shared world shooter)

You're missing the point of what makes a MMO a MMO. MMO is the acronym that symbolizes that this game will have a persistant world and that you'll be able to play with thousands of other players on the same server. That's all it takes to earn the MMO tag. Now, the RPG, FPS, RTS, and etc tags that go along with it hold the same requirements to hold them as their single player counterparts. 

The problem many people on this site have is that developers are copying features from other games, making new games feel exactly alike older games. They're mistakingly thinking that those features is what defines a MMORPG, which is wrong. The term was defined well over a decade ago and hasn't changed. If developers want to breathe life into the MMO genre, they'll have to innovate and stop copying the same features from previous games.

Oh i didn't miss the point. I just think the point is crap. Narrowly defining MMO like that *is* the problem. That is close minded, and not open to innovation and change.

Personally i don't care if a game is a MMO by that narrow definition, or by any definition. If it is fun, i will play it.

Look at what is successful and fun .. many are not MMOs by your definition, but have *some* MMO features. That is the future.

Persistent world is not required to have fun. TO play with thousand of players at the same time is not required to have fun. I can match with as many players in D3, as in WOW but D3 is not a MMO. Why would i care if it is fun?

  kjempff

Elite Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 758

Make worlds not stories

3/08/13 6:06:49 PM#131

Yeah well OP, join the club of eq vets who feel the same. Only thing to do is to accept that things changed and there will likely never be another virtual world game like eq. Don't compare all new games to eq because then everything will dissapoint you, infact dont even call them mmorpgs, just think of them as games :P. Then you might start enjoying what the new games are, and maybe find new genre or crossgenre that you would find fun.

Either that or win the big lottery and buy out Vanguard and spend 100m on reviving it hehe.

 

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

3/08/13 9:15:32 PM#132
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Psychow
So, to summarize:

 

 

WoW is the Anti-Christ of MMOs...


 


As tempting as it is to blame WoW, we must blame the bottom-feeding competitors who failed, utterly, to determine exactly why Wow did so well.

Humor, cartoon graphics, lowest possible hardware specs and Chuck Norris

Secrets of Dragon´s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
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The Return of ELITE !

  Cryseyde

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 38

3/08/13 9:32:21 PM#133
Originally posted by tixylix  So I realise, this genre is dead and the games I strive for aren't part of it.

 

If you are looking for something not cartoony that has a steep learning curve and never insults your intelligence, you should check out The Secret World. Sure it has "kill 10 zombie" missions, but you have to learn the combat somehow. And not everyone likes the hard puzzle missions - there are people who use complete walkthroughs - even though that's one of the best kind of missions in the game. It's super gorgeous on DX11 and still pretty damn good looking on DX9. And the devs are committed to a mostly horizontal progression model.

If you like gritty settings, it's great. If you like being startled, it's great. If you're tired of having your intelligence insulted over and over (I played WoW from '05, so I sure was), this is the one. It's not expensive and it's pay once play forever, which is great because it's a new MMO and doesn't have as much content as older games. If you want to try it out, PM me your e-mail and I can get you a trial key.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19393

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/08/13 9:33:17 PM#134
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Psychow
Originally posted by Cephus404

 That's about as silly as saying "for automobile enthusiasts who enjoy crank-starting their cars, there is nothing and that's surprising!"  No it isn't, these are just people who haven't moved on with the times.  We should expect there to be little or nothing for them, they represent a minuscule minority.

 

Yet they are the loudest and first to attack on any game as being utter crap because it wasn't made just for them...I wonder if the active MMORPG.com community represents close to 100% of them...it's possible....

MMORPG.com and other similar forums, yes.  The people who enjoy these games don't have time to sit on forums, they're too busy playing the games so the forums end up looking very lopsided.

Yeah, it's pretty clear which camp you hail from.

Me, I'm in the group that still enjoys MMORPG's, just wish they'd start making them like they use to.

Good.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4151

Trolls will be ignored

3/08/13 9:36:15 PM#135
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Psychow
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Psychow

OP, it's hard to like anything if all you think of any game is "just another WoW clone"

 

Try going in positive. Maybe WoW and some of the other themepark type MMOs aren't as bad as you envision. Nobody is going to make the perfect game that you dream about. So either alter your tastes or move on.

No, they're pretty awful. Like, mental abortion game design wise. 

 

Nobody is asking for a perfect MMO, just a decent one. 

 

Man, telling someone to alter their tastes... these kinds of apologists need to go. 

 

Then by all means, continue to complain and dream of your decent game. Just be aware that the majority of players aren't as miserable as the old vets. Some people actually enjoy the current crop of MMOs. Some people never played UO or SWG...in fact MOST haven't, so they are not aware that their current MMOs are souless treadmill garbage games that are just cash grabs from greedy lazy developers.

or theres people like me who played AC, UO, EQ1, meridian, SWG and still find enjoyment from some of the current crop MMOs 

This. I play a game for enjoyment sake. While I agree with the vet's sentiment that developers need to get back to putting more emphasis on the social aspect of MMOs, the games are still very fun to play.  Course I'm the guy that loves classic rock while also enjoying jazz and classical music. Some people just have a very limited range on what the find enjoyable. 

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1838

3/09/13 6:45:40 AM#136
Originally posted by Praetalus

I think the biggest issues with MMO's are the types of people they attract. MMO fans are the worst. We live to jump on the forums and shit on game after game making sure that the current game WE like is the "best". And anyone with a different opinion gets shit  on. I think its getting to a point where we're so jaded that we don't WANT to like a game.. I think most of us actually look for things wrong just so we can bitch about it and talk about the good ol' days. I'm sick of it.. which is why I chose to dail it down.. pick a game and just invest. 

 

I finally gave up my search for the "perfect" MMO and just decided to have fun. Just invest in a game and take my time with it exploring the world and getting into the lore. For this, I picked eq2 to settle down with due to the shear amount of content. I'm having the most fun I had in years. Moving at a slower pace, crafting, questing (and actually reading them lol). With the new mercenary system, I can even run shit when some friends aren't availabe. I do prefer to play with others, but it's cool to have an option when I can't sleep and log on at 4am lol. 

 

I think if people lower their defenses and just try to appreciate shit for what it is.. things may get better. It's like watching a movie about super heros. Don't pick it apart like the nerds we are.. just enjoy it for what it is. Ya know?

 

It worked for me and I'm actually having fun again. I hope you all find that fun in MMO's again.. 

Your argument that the community is to blame may hold water if some, if not a lot of us, didn't complain or much even use forums in the early days of the genre. I can speak for myself at least, I never once posted on a gaming forum or even read them when I was playing DAoC for years or SWG. I enjoyed my time in those games and didn't have any complaints. My complaints stem from what WoW brought to the genre, that changed not only the future of games after that, but also the games I loved. WoW brought the solo quest grind experience. Many of us that loved this genre before WoW didn't like that particular change among others. I'll say this again, as I've said in many other threads over the years; most of what is called a quest in MMORPG's would make for a really boring book, because they aren't quests at all. They're just menial tasks and chores that the NPC's should be able to take care of themselves. Quests are Epic in nature, not "deliver Susies pie to Michael after you collect the ingredients for it first." 

If you don't enjoy solo chore grinding, then we can't take the approach you've done. I used to be impressed with the amount of content in EQ2 until I played it and found out that the majority of the "quests" were not even worthy of the name quests.

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1838

3/09/13 6:55:06 AM#137
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I said is in my thread before. The genre isn't dying. It's just that the mindset has changed and developers aren't changing with the new mindset.

the same music that was in the 80s and 90s isn't popular anymore in 2013 like it once was. Why? Because mindset of consumer changed. What's so hard to understand about that?

No, developers *ARE* changing with the new mindset.  The problem is, the old-timers aren't changing, they're stubornly clinging to the old ways that just aren't workable in the modern world.  MMOs, like every other genre, are changing to what the majority of paying customers playing that  genre want them to  be. 

When my father was growing up, classic rock was the music young people listened to. His parents listend to something earlier than that and thought classic rock was trash. When I was growing up, alternative rock was what was popular and it's what I still a big fan of. Before I graduated High School rap became popular and still is. Am I supposed to quit loving rock and become a fan of rap to "get with the times?"

My point is that people like what they like, and to expect them to like something different because that's what is popular/what the masses like is ignorant.

The only thing that is required in a MMORPG is that the world is persistant and thousands of other players can play online together. Early MMORPG developers knew this and each released MMORPG in the early days were different from one another and shown innovation, creativity, and imagination. Since WoW released, developers seem to think that MMORPG's are defined by a set of features, such as battlegrounds, arenas, quests, AH's, talent trees, and etc. Some recent games have released with some inventive ideas, but mainly stuch to those features WoW made popular. Peoples gripes is that the developers have forgotten what the definition of a MMORPG is, and instead decided to copy previous games into oblivion. Developers need to forget about copying previous MMORPG's, and instead get creative, inventive, and innovate.

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1838

3/09/13 6:58:07 AM#138
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Cuathon

MMOs no longer represent a style of game I want to play. They are dead to me.

Then by all means, go play something else.  Move on.  That's what healthy people do.  However, there's a vocal group of people who hate everything that modern MMOs are, yet continue to stick around and whine about how much they hate them.  Get a different hobby!  Go find something you actually enjoy doing!

Not sure why this is so difficult for some people.

Maybe because MMORPG's are something they are passionate about and this is their chosen hobby? A hobby that perhaps was changed from something they loved into something they can hardly recognize? Believe it or not, developers read gaming forums to keep tabs of what people are raving for. If everyone just quit the genre and never looked back, the developers won't know what players are looking for in a MMORPG. It's better to provide constructive feedback for developers and discuss new ideas, than to just quit and walk away.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

3/09/13 7:49:02 AM#139
Originally posted by nate1980

Believe it or not, developers read gaming forums to keep tabs of what people are raving for.

Indeed, and that led to the great solo player revolution of 2003-2006 (the one everyone blames Blizzard for, despite the fact that it actually began before WoW, and overtook pretty much the entire industry over the same time span).

I wonder what the raving will lead to this time. Overcorrection, if history serves as any useful guide.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3718

3/09/13 9:34:06 AM#140
What single player revolution, there was only single player to start with, then consoles and mmorgs took off (through wow). Then blizzard changed direction at the beginning of wotlk to dumb down content and aim for multiple demographics, the rest is history.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO

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