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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Tanks and their common ability... Taunt.

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87 posts found
  Dane_Wilding

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 16

3/09/13 3:58:23 AM#61

1. Interupts and stuns

2. Guard to split damage

3. Slows and snares

4. Collision detection

Interupts and stuns to make you more of a threat to casters and able to prevet melee from wrecking your DPS players. Include a guard ability so tanks can soak up some of the damage output. Slows and snares to allow for your casters/melee DPS to retreat. And collision detection so you can Stun -> Slow -> and plop yourself inbetween them and your squishies. 

  lindhsky

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/07
Posts: 95

3/09/13 4:26:13 AM#62

I don't think taunt is a must in a pvp-game. The ideas they had in Warhammer were quite good about taunt but no need for it when facing other players. I rather hope they have protectionskills so that a tank can protect his allies but needs to be close. That way the tank really needs to pay attention.

Some games have had some type of protectionskill that takes away half of the damage and transfer it to the tank. I am no fan of that. Especially not after playing a sorcerer in Warhammer with a personal tank and a personal healer and AOE specced. It was ridicolous how hard it was to take me down and how much damage I did. Smart groups knew how to do but when it was zerg vs zerg and Order had like ten brightwizards with the same setup it was getting old pretty fast. I rather have that the blocking skill of the tank helps if they put guard on the target. So that every time the protected player is attacked the tank rolls for block to see if he actually blocks the attack.

I loved that in DAOC. I was a defensive specced Paladin and my duty in our "gank group" was to protect the Clerics with shieldslams(stuns) and guard. Since I was specced high in shield I blocked a LOT of attacks if I was close enough and sometimes so much that they changed target. And so did I. It was one of the few times in PVP that I have actually felt like a true tank and I have played tank in most games released after.

My Own Browsergame:

http://www.heroesoftheclan.com/

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11363

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/09/13 5:53:24 AM#63
Originally posted by PerfArt
There is a lot of talk about "no fun" as if this is not a very subjective concept. I would like for us to all remember this while we discuss these topics.

I respect that some folks do not like the target-swapping mechanic in any form, even if limited.

That's fine. I'll bite. Let's assume that "taunt" is an antiquated mechanic in the context of RvR (which it is as the mechanic currently works, and why some here have suggested just changing the name. Mmo players do so seem to get hung up on semantics.)

In light of this, why do we still need "tanks?" Why should we require the antiquated (in the context of PvP) roles if that role's primary purpose is to get enemies to hit them instead of squishy allies. Tanks have been A) primarily a PvE boon and B) problematic to balance in PvP without all kinds of contrived tools that don't really fit their roles (ranged taunts that interrupt a an example.) So why do we still need them in CU?

Balance. RPS.

So now we have them ostensibly grandfathered in.

Now, if you want to take one of the main strengths of a class type that was developed for PvE purposes away in order to not see that purpose adapted to RvR, then there are only two options:

1) Fuck tanks, let's just make melee classes that have other abilities than "tanking"

2) Address issues that don't allow tanks to tank in RvR and issues that those of the player base who don't want them to do so because of the inconveniences the possibility presents.

So, let's get creative with options in the middle ground (and I hate the middle ground.)

There is a lot of talk about "no fun"...

Yes, definitely, and it's because historically, when this contrived mechanic is applied to PVP it has consistently proven to be no funFrom the pre-2000 UO bard to the modern day PvE 'warrior', taunt has been little more than a frustration in PvP, sometimes even proven to be more tactically sound as a griefing tool.

Taunt wasn't a feature that devs created. It was a solution to a particular problem - the lack of positional relationship between mobs and players in MUDs. The entire trinty exists to compensate for the new problems that taunt introduced.

 

Seeking to put a band-aid on a band-aid on a band-aid is a terrible idea.

 

  MumboJumbo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3072

Veni, Vidi, Converti

3/09/13 6:00:04 AM#64
What I think of taunt in pvp: Roger Moore Karate
  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

3/09/13 7:11:49 AM#65
@Loktofeit

"Proven to be no fun?" I am not arguing the point, but that is a very opinion-based, subjective statement masquerading around as a fact.

Don't get me wrong: I am all for alternatives. Hell, I asked for them. However, anything that helps one class and hurts another can be considered "little more than frustration in PvP."

In CU, I would not mind seeing the whole mechanic scrapped at all. I just want the big dudes in armor to be able to do more than run around trying to get someone to pay attention to them. :)

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Zakatak

Novice Member

Joined: 3/09/13
Posts: 17

3/09/13 7:29:29 AM#66
I had a lot of fun playing Warrior in rvr.  Being able to shield/protect my dps/healers if I felt the need, being able to slam targets off of them, and be defensive, all the while being able to follow my train slamming their targets, switching to 2hander and ripping them apart.  I would constantly go back and forth from offensive to defensive in a fight, sometimes fights would last 10minutes with the right opponent.  Bodyguard with toa was pretty lame, even though we used it a lot..  Bodyguard pbaoe and aoe stun, being a pure bodyguard bot was fun for a while, but it got old.

Bige - Bors.
Bigge, Zmallz, Reiggn, Faty)

(Everquest(99-02), Lineage(01-02), DAoC(02-09), WoW(07), WAR(10-11), Rift(11)
Nothing Current.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11363

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/09/13 7:40:38 AM#67
Originally posted by PerfArt
@Loktofeit

"Proven to be no fun?" I am not arguing the point, but that is a very opinion-based, subjective statement masquerading around as a fact.

 

Can you share examples of MMOs where taunt is enjoyed in PVP? I gave you examples and explained the reason and history behind taunt. I'd be interested in a counterpoint if you have one.

 

 

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

3/09/13 9:36:33 AM#68

There is a reason that taunt doen't exist in any GOOD pvp games. It FORCES monster AI to behave a certain way.

It has no place in pvp.

  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

3/09/13 10:41:04 AM#69
Lokto: we are speaking about a game that has yet to begin development and theorizing ways to make it work. Plus, enjoyment varies from person to person. My Example? I enjoyed tank taunts in daoc rvr it allowed tanks a chance to close the gap. Maybe a bit too much range, but not unenjoyable.

I am all for alternatives, though, as I have stated repeatedly. I would actually PREFER alternatives other than taunts.

What I don't want is taunt yanked and replaced with nothing.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  killion81

Elite Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 867

3/09/13 10:43:38 AM#70
Originally posted by Hokibukisa

There is a reason that taunt doen't exist in any GOOD pvp games. It FORCES monster AI to behave a certain way.

It has no place in pvp.

 

I'm not sure what people's issue with forcing something in PvP is.  A stun or mez forces a player to do nothing, which is worse than changing targets.  Disarm or silence forces a player to not attack at all, which again is worse than changing targets.  Root forces players not to move at all, which can be worse than changing targets.  Why are some forms of CC ok, even when some cause the player to completely lose control (stun) and other forms of CC are not, when in comparison they seem considerably more mild.  Would it be better f you automatically reaquired your original target after the taunt ended?

  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

3/09/13 10:50:39 AM#71
@killion: Forcing someone to change targets is inherently worse than making them stand still while you slash at them with positionals for 9 seconds just... Just because. It's wrong to make people do stuff unless it's certain stuff. Just because.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

3/09/13 11:53:26 AM#72
Originally posted by killion81
Originally posted by Hokibukisa

There is a reason that taunt doen't exist in any GOOD pvp games. It FORCES monster AI to behave a certain way.

It has no place in pvp.

 

I'm not sure what people's issue with forcing something in PvP is.  A stun or mez forces a player to do nothing, which is worse than changing targets.  Disarm or silence forces a player to not attack at all, which again is worse than changing targets.  Root forces players not to move at all, which can be worse than changing targets.  Why are some forms of CC ok, even when some cause the player to completely lose control (stun) and other forms of CC are not, when in comparison they seem considerably more mild.  Would it be better f you automatically reaquired your original target after the taunt ended?

Those are effects, not behaviors. You can mezz and disarm mobs. Taunt forces a behavior, which is different.

The problem with the massive taunt debuff in WAR was that combined 2 roles into lackluster and lame one.

 

I make a thread 2 weeks ago or so about heavy tanks being the grand master champions of peeling due to they hardly ever missing, as well as them being highly resistant to CC themselves. Peeling / interupts / free-casting = the meta-trinity that works extremely well and is very worthy of copying.

 

PvP taunt is honestly just unimaginative, lazy, and unsatisfying.

  killion81

Elite Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 867

3/09/13 1:51:34 PM#73
Originally posted by Hokibukisa
Originally posted by killion81
Originally posted by Hokibukisa

There is a reason that taunt doen't exist in any GOOD pvp games. It FORCES monster AI to behave a certain way.

It has no place in pvp.

 

I'm not sure what people's issue with forcing something in PvP is.  A stun or mez forces a player to do nothing, which is worse than changing targets.  Disarm or silence forces a player to not attack at all, which again is worse than changing targets.  Root forces players not to move at all, which can be worse than changing targets.  Why are some forms of CC ok, even when some cause the player to completely lose control (stun) and other forms of CC are not, when in comparison they seem considerably more mild.  Would it be better f you automatically reaquired your original target after the taunt ended?

Those are effects, not behaviors. You can mezz and disarm mobs. Taunt forces a behavior, which is different.

The problem with the massive taunt debuff in WAR was that combined 2 roles into lackluster and lame one.

 

I make a thread 2 weeks ago or so about heavy tanks being the grand master champions of peeling due to they hardly ever missing, as well as them being highly resistant to CC themselves. Peeling / interupts / free-casting = the meta-trinity that works extremely well and is very worthy of copying.

 

PvP taunt is honestly just unimaginative, lazy, and unsatisfying.

 

Changing the target of a taunt is an effect as well.  I could just as easily say that standing and doing nothing is a behavior and it is forced by a mez or stun.

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

3/09/13 2:10:47 PM#74
What would be the counter for 2s forced targeting? Purge? Leave the short duration cc out, it's opening up for more short duration soft and hard ccs that are imbalanced.
  Jostle

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 63

3/09/13 3:12:31 PM#75

Forced targeting is really not a very good idea. If the duration is too long, it would be overpowered. If the duration was very short, you might as well treat it like a disarm and not even bother attacking the tank who taunted you. I think there are much better ways of letting tanks do their job in pvp.

 

I think dark age of Camelot system worked really well in dark age of Camelot. However worth copying one idea is, it wouldn't kill anyone to do something different if it ended up being equally as fun and complex, and there is a possibility of having some parts of a successful combat system and some parts of another and not some parts of each may end up giving Camelot unchained a frankenstein combat system that would be a big mess. I think people are just as guilty of projecting the success of elements of Camelot onto a new game with a potentially wildly disparate combat system as others are of plugging their ears to such mechanics.

 

Having said that, I'd like to think of a tank in a pvp game more as a protector than a tank. Their role in combat is to protect their allies, and prevent them from dying. If they specialize in buffing, they'd get defensive buffs. If they specialized in debugging, they'd get debuffs that are defensive in nature. If they specialized in cc, they'd be great at peeling. If they specialized in offense, their critical hits could lower enemy damage, and taking hits for allies could increase there damage/hit chance/critical chance. The point is, give people options on how to fill a role. Having only one way to do anything, no matter how well balanced or fun or perfect for a system will get old eventually.

 

 

  Vanshoodie

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 35

 
OP  3/09/13 10:33:24 PM#76
I'm sorry, I just don't see how it is such an offensive idea, especially in comparions to other CC abilities. Just like how killion compared them. I guess I am just used to such forms of cc, I have played games where tanks could taunt in pvp and had mobs that could taunt in pve. I personally do not see a difference. The arguement saying that taunt removes control of the player is bogus. No different from mezz/stun/daze/stile or disarm. Seriously it boils down to personal opinion, and everyone has one. My opinion is that I like the idea of taunts for tanks so they can help protect allies. Just because.
  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

3/10/13 10:56:06 AM#77
Herein lies the conflict, fellow RvRers: we all think we know what is best for CU. I would like to make a few points regarding this:

Knowing, as we all do, how conflicting the opinions of mmorpg players are, we should somewhat accept the fact that real game designers (especially those freed from publisher restraints) know how to make a fun game.

Furthermore, if we all keep bitching and complaining about every freaking issue, we run the risk of getting a spazzy, cater-to-everyone game. This is not supposed to be that game. This game is supposed to a badass, unapologetically hardcore motherfucker of an mmo.

This is the (ostensibly) last time we will get a chance to play a game made by the main force behind one of the best games we have ever played. This might be an unpopular suggestion, but might we tone it down a bit? I am not excluding myself from the frenzy, either. We are all kinda excited.

In the case of taunts, I doubt there will be any, as they have little place in rvr. We tried to discuss ways in which it COULD be a viable mechanic, and a freak out ensued.

Shot down. Big surprise.

In the end, we are all just discussing maybes and what-ifs. If anyone here thinks for a second that winning an argument against an early adopter-laden, small niche forum is going to fundamentally change this game's dynamics, that is kinda silly.

Granted, I am sure CSE will listen to the backers and use any useful ideas if they make sense within the framework of the game they have envisioned, but I really think that they should primarily make their game.

Why else would we all be so excited if we thought they couldn't?

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/10/13 11:45:27 AM#78
It's not a fundamental issue and would be easily removed
Things that matter at this point is gameplay, and combat mechanics ( the raw outline not individual abilities ) being a pvp game I dunno how much thought will be made to make tanks "tank" better In pvp, it really is silly and most people arguing never player an "old school mmo" like daoc so have no idea how daoc did tanks well.

We should focus on keeping tab targeting, no collision detection etc
Amirite?

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Vanshoodie

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 35

 
OP  3/10/13 1:14:26 PM#79
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
It's not a fundamental issue and would be easily removed
Things that matter at this point is gameplay, and combat mechanics ( the raw outline not individual abilities ) being a pvp game I dunno how much thought will be made to make tanks "tank" better In pvp, it really is silly and most people arguing never player an "old school mmo" like daoc so have no idea how daoc did tanks well.

We should focus on keeping tab targeting, no collision detection etc
Amirite?

Yes gameplay and mechanics needs to be a focus, but dismissing something just because you think it is silly is not a valid argument. As for me, I am an "old school mmo" player. So I do have ideas how many developers have done tanks. That is what I am basing my opinion on. :)

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/10/13 8:05:57 PM#80
Either way I don't care about this issue
I think it's a pointless ability an ill just make macros to break someone stealing my target
No one should be able to force who you're targeting but if they implement this there will be ways of making It pointless so go not too worried
I'm more worried at the bigger issues right now
Maybe after they release classes if there even is a tank based class these arguments can gain ground again
I still don't get what was ever wrong with daoc tanks
Just because people were bad and didn't know how to utilize guard protect pally taunt on pets
Stun peels etc IS NOT a good reasons to implement these "oh I'm bad " abilities
Let's hear some more creative abilities that require talent to stop someone from attacking their healers not just a one button

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

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