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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Obviously kickstarter will be funded..CU has gone Viral

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73 posts found
  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/08/13 12:16:26 PM#41
@Ellya. True fact. However, as an older game-UO is venerated in an even smaller circle these days. That being said, Lord British did go to space, so who knows?

:P

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  MightyPit

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/02
Posts: 88

3/08/13 12:16:33 PM#42
Lord British fails with Tabula Rasa quite epic. I loved to play UO back then, but I will not back on a game which has an isometric map-view with action-scenes. Hello? Adventures of Link is outdated ;) Well ok, the housing will be fun, but you will get it here also ;)

MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen

  Kryptonite_Hilo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 48

3/08/13 12:33:26 PM#43

It has to fund! Just use this slogan, it isn't cheesy at all:

"Camelot Unchained: It's off the chain!!"

It'll fund like crazy!

 

  Corinthian-X

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 87

3/08/13 12:42:06 PM#44
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Hokibukisa

I would like to join the voice of reason camp, solidify much more stuff, flesh out these 10 vague ideas into presentable examples.

Give examples, imaginative detailed examples with beautiful concept art giving sight to vision.

 

Tell stories from the perspective of players who log in to play the game. What they experience when they first log in, walk us through their experiences over time, how they are affected by the 10 principles, and go through exciting experiences.

 

Until you can narrate a story that gets you (the narrator) excited, then I think its way to early to ask the potential players if the game idea sounds exciting enough to fund.

 

Right now we have 10 blog posts. I don't mean to be negative nancy, but that would be pathetic amount of info to go looking for investment with. Thats like saying I want to make a shirt, its going to be purple, invest monies plz.

I was just chatting with a buddy of mine who works for a major game company, and we were jokingly saying how with a handful of writers and artists, you could come up with a compelling game kick starter with a slick website, screenshots and even gameplay all done for show without a real game existing.

Just cash out saying you didn't meet the funding goal.

This scenario is actually a lot easier to pull off than delivering an actual MMO.

I am not saying that CU is going this route, just want to point out that it is 100% trust based as you are just handing over cash for an idea.

If the game doesn't reach its goal on Kickstarter there's no money to cash out. Kickstarter is all-or-nothing. If they don't fully fund they don't get any money.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2736

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/08/13 12:45:26 PM#45
And to think I thought we weren't allowed to Hype games on this site.  Ohh unless we can only hype games that don't fit the themepark model.  great.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Stiler

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

3/08/13 3:32:19 PM#46
Originally posted by FromHell

Is there a running prototype gameplay video?

I never saw a successful Kickstarter campaign without a gameplay video, tbh

Double Fine's adventure

Project Eternity(highest kickstarter video game to date)

You can't have a gameplay video if you need the moeny to actually start production.

The main thing that's needed i sa good way to show your idea's, make it clear to the people what you want to do, have concoept arts, detailed info on the game and it's mechanics, etc.

  tokesh

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 43

3/08/13 3:32:20 PM#47

I think it's pretty crazy to expect this to be a lock.  How many games with no gameplay footage have even been funded on KS?  All CU has is concept ideas, art, races possible, etc.  

edit: I guess there has been nvm!

  Stromm

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 250

3/08/13 5:14:52 PM#48
Originally posted by azzamasin
And to think I thought we weren't allowed to Hype games on this site.  Ohh unless we can only hype games that don't fit the themepark model.  great.

Hehe is that supposed to be a forum rule? No hyping games?

I thought this entire website existed almost entirely for two reasons, hype and controversy.

  pdjkeelan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/04
Posts: 1

3/08/13 5:59:04 PM#49

I was a hardcore DAOC player and had an account full with 50s from all 3 realms. However after reading everything about Camelot Unchained I honestly cannot see myself contributing to the kickstarter campaign.

In DAOC I loved it for all elements of the game, RvR, crafting and PvE. Camelot has such a rich lore to pull from for PvE encounters and quests. Removing the PvE from the game really removes such a huge amount of content that I cannot understand why the kickstarter is going to require so much money, the majority of resources in an MMO goes into game resources such as scripts, quests (incl translations) and artwork. Yet CU is meant to launch with a tiered subscriber price when all it will offer is RvR and crafting? If I wanted this I would be playing Guild Wars 2 and I'd get my PvE fix too.

My memories of DAOC stem from every element, most notably teaming up with random people and grinding for hours in Avalon City and becoming friends with the people I played with, I see no way that this kind of socialising will happen with RvR only. It didn't even happen in DAOC, I RvRed a lot but made very few friends through it, I made my friends by exploring PvE content. DAOC was made brilliant because of the social elements including alliances, guilds and PvE encounters.

At the moment the Camelot Unchained information makes it sound like WvW in Guild Wars 2 without anything else. I hope when the Kickstarter launches that I'm proven wrong, but if the 'no PvE' remains there is almost no way I will help to kickstart it and after speaking with many friends from DAOC they also say they feel the same way.

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1132

3/08/13 6:21:32 PM#50
Originally posted by pdjkeelan

I was a hardcore DAOC player and had an account full with 50s from all 3 realms. However after reading everything about Camelot Unchained I honestly cannot see myself contributing to the kickstarter campaign.

In DAOC I loved it for all elements of the game, RvR, crafting and PvE. Camelot has such a rich lore to pull from for PvE encounters and quests. Removing the PvE from the game really removes such a huge amount of content that I cannot understand why the kickstarter is going to require so much money, the majority of resources in an MMO goes into game resources such as scripts, quests (incl translations) and artwork. Yet CU is meant to launch with a tiered subscriber price when all it will offer is RvR and crafting? If I wanted this I would be playing Guild Wars 2 and I'd get my PvE fix too.

My memories of DAOC stem from every element, most notably teaming up with random people and grinding for hours in Avalon City and becoming friends with the people I played with, I see no way that this kind of socialising will happen with RvR only. It didn't even happen in DAOC, I RvRed a lot but made very few friends through it, I made my friends by exploring PvE content. DAOC was made brilliant because of the social elements including alliances, guilds and PvE encounters.

At the moment the Camelot Unchained information makes it sound like WvW in Guild Wars 2 without anything else. I hope when the Kickstarter launches that I'm proven wrong, but if the 'no PvE' remains there is almost no way I will help to kickstart it and after speaking with many friends from DAOC they also say they feel the same way.

This game isn't for you then. The reverse is true for me. If this was a game like TESO that has PvE and RvR then there would be no chance I would donate to the kickstarter. It's only because it won't be another PvE game with RvR tacked on as an afterthought that I'm willing to give money to it sight unseen. (GW 2 WvW sucks and doesn't handle a candle to DAOC RvR btw.)

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  SoMuchMass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/08/13 8:00:03 PM#51
Originally posted by Stromm

14 years playing MMO's, 8 years playing WoW, EQ, Horizons (lol), SWTOR, Rift and GW2 all tell me that PvP is not the primary focus of those games.

I must be playing GW2 wrong. Have never sPvP'd on any character and only visited WvWvW a few times to pick up the POI's, WP's and SP's. The largescale PvP in GW2 is a terrible, laggy poorly rendered unbalanced mess in my experience. But once again your experience may be very different.

Are you really asserting that LOTRO players are there for the PvP? Hehe, well that definately flies in the face of my preconceptions and I am now imagining a horde of Tolkien nerds wearing mumble headsets and teabagging corpses. :-)

PvP exists in most MMO's because it's chump easy to implement and costs bugger all compared to PvE dev costs. Even EQ had PvP, but it was absolutely a niche side distraction.

I disagree 100%, PvP is just as important as PvE in MMOs especially MMOs that have mass appeal & longevity.  Players might not "focus" on PvP but they probably partake in just as much PvP content as they do in PvE in most of these games.  Developers have realized you will not be mass market unless you focus on both PvP and PvE.  WoW nerfs and buffs for PvP almost every month, the biggest streamers in WoW are all PvPers, there is immense popularity as Raiding and dungeons can old as you can only do them so many times while people have doing WSG and AB thousands of times a day for 8 years.

If you want to be a mass market MMO you need to focus on both PvP and PvE.

About people concerned about CU being only PvP, I have concerns too.  A game has to really good for it to have longevity.  There are PvP only games that have done really well in the market recently, some examples are LoL, World of Tanks and PlanetSide 2 they have their crowd and they have millions of players.  So it can work if it is done well.

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

3/08/13 8:15:54 PM#52

The good news is that a lot of people are easy to please in terms of PvE.

 

I wish I had all of my old daoc screen shots from a decade ago, but when I was really bored and had nothing else to do I'd just go to a hill overlooking road that invaders would normally go through, and I'd just pull mobs. Thank god daoc didn't really have quests, so that just doing normal mob killing was never a waste of time. I'd be chatting while all of this is going on. Didn't have to think about a rotation, just nuke nuke nuke slam provoke provoke dead.

 

PvE doesn't need to be complicated. Its a wolf den. Pitch a tent nearby, invite some freinds, kill all the mobs, throw another shimp on the barby while they respawn. Fill up bags, go to vault.

  Stromm

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 250

3/08/13 10:05:53 PM#53
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Originally posted by Stromm

I disagree 100%, PvP is just as important as PvE in MMOs especially MMOs that have mass appeal & longevity.  Players might not "focus" on PvP but they probably partake in just as much PvP content as they do in PvE in most of these games.  Developers have realized you will not be mass market unless you focus on both PvP and PvE.  WoW nerfs and buffs for PvP almost every month, the biggest streamers in WoW are all PvPers, there is immense popularity as Raiding and dungeons can old as you can only do them so many times while people have doing WSG and AB thousands of times a day for 8 years.

If you want to be a mass market MMO you need to focus on both PvP and PvE.

About people concerned about CU being only PvP, I have concerns too.  A game has to really good for it to have longevity.  There are PvP only games that have done really well in the market recently, some examples are LoL, World of Tanks and PlanetSide 2 they have their crowd and they have millions of players.  So it can work if it is done well.

Its good to have disagreement, it makes you evaluate why you hold your position in a debate. :-)

If I entirely removed PvP from WoW, EQ, EQ2, GW2 or Rift tomorrow I would still have a recognisable game, and in WoW's case at least still millions of subs.

If I entirely removed PvE from WoW, EQ, EQ2, GW2 or Rift tomorrow I would have ... a brundlefly ... an unrecognisable mess. I'd have no questing, minimal lore, no 5 mans, no 10 mans, no 25 mans, no LFR, no dailies, no rifts, no hearts, no events, no puzzles. The games would be unrecognisable.

That's kinda my point. PvP is secondary in those games. A tacked on afterthought used to fill in time, like daily quests and pet battles.

WoW devs frequently nerf/buff abilities due to PvP, I agree. Why? Because they were designed for PVE and do not work well in PvP. If pvp was impactful on their subscriber base they would work on getting PvP sorted properly, instead they seem to spend more effort on pet battles and daily quests, now why do you think that is? To my knowledge there have been very few "seasons" that have no been considered broken, with certain comps being viable and the rest not, with whole class specs left to wither, and in some cases whole classes left with no options to be competetive. It. Is. An. Afterthought.

Streamers have no relevance in this discussion, 99% of MMO players have probably never streamed, most have probably never even recorded a fraps. But since you bring up web interaction I would suggest far and away more web content originates from pve than ever will or does from pvp. MLG doesn't even include WoW 3v3 anymore does it?

Hehe yeah people have been doing those same BG's over and over for years, because they locust the pve content and still want to play the game and BG pvp is a readily available disposable source of no-brain content, or because they are completionists working on cheevos/mounts/reps waddeva.

I agree 100% with your comment about mass market MMO needing both PVE and PVP, that is basically a restatement of my entire arguement. Two things I seem to recall though, MJ has said he plans to be niche, not mass market, and he's not aiming for millions of subs.

You raise LoL, WoT and PS2. We're not talking MOBAs or MMOFPS here, but since you do, lets discuss. LOL is the most played PC game in the world. DOTA2 just recently beat Skyrim for the most concurrent players in Steam and is rising, and you have a swag of MOBA/wannabeMOBAs out there *cough* SMITE *cough* AND you have D3 introducing PvP and Path of Exile with PvP and Marvel Heroes coming. So you tell me why those millions of players currently playing F2P, B2P would want to play subbed CU when they already have a gluttons banquet of PvP titles crying out for their attention? I would suggest that PvE content would be the missing enticement, don't you think?

But I realise that times change, the gaming playerbase has changing tastes and I am more than willing to accept that my preconceptions may outdated, but nothing you have said has convinced me so far. I've played ALL the games you mentioned except PS2 (and yes back in the day I played PS1), before MMOs took over as my genre of choice I played DOOM/Duke IPX LAN, Quake, HL, and Wolf:ET. I am not anti-pvp by any stretch, but I feel I am aware of the very serious challenges faced by PvP only MMO titles.

 

  shadevice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 71

 
OP  3/08/13 10:08:16 PM#54

Another fact about pvp/pve combo games is that PVEers, that don't really like pvp, generally suck at it.

So they were easy prey and were farmed. So the semi skilled pvpers seem a lot better than they really are.

Now when you have a pvp only game, the competiton is much more straight forward, all players obviously like pvp or they wouldn't be playing it. Wether or not they are any good still remains but a bad pvper that only pvps will still beat a pver who is clueless.

Point being, in a PVP only game. much less FREE, EZ, Kills.

It's like sending a bread maker against a battle hardened gladiator...whos gonna win.

  KappenWiz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/06/07
Posts: 163

3/08/13 10:41:35 PM#55
Originally posted by pdjkeelan

I was a hardcore DAOC player and had an account full with 50s from all 3 realms. However after reading everything about Camelot Unchained I honestly cannot see myself contributing to the kickstarter campaign.

In DAOC I loved it for all elements of the game, RvR, crafting and PvE. Camelot has such a rich lore to pull from for PvE encounters and quests. Removing the PvE from the game really removes such a huge amount of content that I cannot understand why the kickstarter is going to require so much money, the majority of resources in an MMO goes into game resources such as scripts, quests (incl translations) and artwork. Yet CU is meant to launch with a tiered subscriber price when all it will offer is RvR and crafting? If I wanted this I would be playing Guild Wars 2 and I'd get my PvE fix too.

My memories of DAOC stem from every element, most notably teaming up with random people and grinding for hours in Avalon City and becoming friends with the people I played with, I see no way that this kind of socialising will happen with RvR only. It didn't even happen in DAOC, I RvRed a lot but made very few friends through it, I made my friends by exploring PvE content. DAOC was made brilliant because of the social elements including alliances, guilds and PvE encounters.

At the moment the Camelot Unchained information makes it sound like WvW in Guild Wars 2 without anything else. I hope when the Kickstarter launches that I'm proven wrong, but if the 'no PvE' remains there is almost no way I will help to kickstart it and after speaking with many friends from DAOC they also say they feel the same way.

This is an interesting post and something I hope is addressed clearly on the kickstarter page because my first impression was similar: Is this going to be just the frontiers with everyone getting the equivalent of insta 50s?

First blush, it sounds like a medieval fantasy frag fest in a few RvR zones with some scattered mobs. They want more interaction, forced grouping, etc, but haven't said what, besides RvR, you'll group to do. If RvR is the only time you'll group, well we all know that's not the time to learn how to play your character generally. If grouping will be necessary for crafting or gathering, how so? And why will the RvR'ers want to do that?

These may or may not be problems. Until we learn more about the design intention, it's all speculation. But I do think it bears noting how it comes across. A few serious, deal-breaker type questions popped into my head:

  • Well, first, the one above about the frontiers...
  • Second, they keep mentioning about levelling up in RvR, but what about when alts are made and there's nobody to fight at your level? How will you advance that character? I believe they've also said there will be no "level boosting' type mechanics to allow level 8 players to play against level 50 players in RvR. Could be wrong about that one, but thought I heard it. If so, what is there for lower level characters to do when they're alone?
  • Third, PvE gives the players something to do at all times. Whether they found the PvE terribly exciting or not in DAoC, it was there. It kept at least some people online, creating a player base for when things picked up in RvR areas. With no PvE, whats to keep people from logging on, seeing if theres any action, then logging off if it's dead? If crafting is supposed to fill that void, how? Will it be attractive for the players that like to RvR? or just for the crafter-types?
I've learned more about the idea now, so I know what they're shooting for and like what I hear, but a lot of people might not take the time to learn more, they might just stop by to take a glance at the project. If the impression people take away at first sight is, If you mainly like to RvR, and there's no action, there's not really anything for you to do, that could doom the KS campaign. If there's more to it than that, it would be really helpful to supply a little more detail.
 
  SoMuchMass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/08/13 11:36:45 PM#56
Originally posted by Stromm

If I entirely removed PvP from WoW, EQ, EQ2, GW2 or Rift tomorrow I would still have a recognisable game, and in WoW's case at least still millions of subs.

If I entirely removed PvE from WoW, EQ, EQ2, GW2 or Rift tomorrow I would have ... a brundlefly ... an unrecognisable mess. I'd have no questing, minimal lore, no 5 mans, no 10 mans, no 25 mans, no LFR, no dailies, no rifts, no hearts, no events, no puzzles. The games would be unrecognisable.

That's kinda my point. PvP is secondary in those games. A tacked on afterthought used to fill in time, like daily quests and pet battles.

WoW devs frequently nerf/buff abilities due to PvP, I agree. Why? Because they were designed for PVE and do not work well in PvP. If pvp was impactful on their subscriber base they would work on getting PvP sorted properly, instead they seem to spend more effort on pet battles and daily quests, now why do you think that is? To my knowledge there have been very few "seasons" that have no been considered broken, with certain comps being viable and the rest not, with whole class specs left to wither, and in some cases whole classes left with no options to be competetive. It. Is. An. Afterthought.

Streamers have no relevance in this discussion, 99% of MMO players have probably never streamed, most have probably never even recorded a fraps. But since you bring up web interaction I would suggest far and away more web content originates from pve than ever will or does from pvp. MLG doesn't even include WoW 3v3 anymore does it?

Hehe yeah people have been doing those same BG's over and over for years, because they locust the pve content and still want to play the game and BG pvp is a readily available disposable source of no-brain content, or because they are completionists working on cheevos/mounts/reps waddeva.

Devs from Rift realized what happened when they ignored the PvP community they left in droves and servers were completely empty.  Then what did they try to do?  Cater to the MMO community by introducing 3 faction PvP which was just too late.

Someone asked Hartsmann:

  • It doesn't seem like PvP is being "tacked on", it will be a focus.
To which he replied:
  • True. The gentleman running the team wouldn't have it any other way. (If you saw last year's E3 videos -- Russ Brown. That's him. He's awesome.) PvP is built in from the ground up, not being added to a PvE game

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/38803-rift-planes-telara-heroes-telara-e3-09-a-12.html#post1687892

So it was not "secondary".  The whole design of GW2, WoW and Rift was designed with PvP in mind and not just secondary.  The whole world was in Rift and WoW was designed for two factions due to sides and the PvP conflict.  The earliest trailers had Orcs fighting Humans.  WoW wouldn't be the same with out it. Same with Rift, the whole lore and world design was based around 2 factions at war.

If it was an after thought the WoW devs could have just said screw it and let the PvErs stay happy and screw over the PvPers but they realize they would lose pretty much half their community.  Even the population in PvE vs. PvP servers is about 55 to 45 in favor of PvE.

GW2 is another example of this, the major part of the game is the WvW.  Servers were set up to support that whole system, they wouldn't even need servers if it weren't for WvW.  GW2 failed in every regard especially PvP but it doesn't mean they didn't design PvP to me a primary if not important part of the game

Streamers have major influence over the community.  Some of them get 100k unique viewers a day (just one person).  Sites like Twitch get millions of views a month.  Companies pay streamers to advertiser for them.  The most popular in most cases, are usually PvP players because others want to be like them.

When devs specially design the world around faction conflict and specially state it was not "tacted" on.  I will take their word.

About some classes being useless in PvP in WoW that is true, that is also the case in PvE where some classes are pretty much useless to take.

I am also a fan of both PvE and PvP.  But I don't see a mass market success of a PvE only game.  Tabulsa Rasa, FFXIV, Vanguard, Asheron's Call 2 were PvE only and didn't do well at all.  If a MMO is PvE only it will also be a niche game like PvP only MMOs.

  zephermarkus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/09
Posts: 226

3/08/13 11:42:09 PM#57
The thing about kickstarter is I haven't seen one of these kickstater games actually come out yet  or even have a lpha video or beta nothing and most have over reached their goals by so much that they could have these games done in 6 months max. Kickstater is a cash grab scam and i for one am glad I haven't backed anything.
  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

3/09/13 2:00:59 AM#58
Originally posted by shadevice

Another fact about pvp/pve combo games is that PVEers, that don't really like pvp, generally suck at it.

So they were easy prey and were farmed. So the semi skilled pvpers seem a lot better than they really are.

Now when you have a pvp only game, the competiton is much more straight forward, all players obviously like pvp or they wouldn't be playing it. Wether or not they are any good still remains but a bad pvper that only pvps will still beat a pver who is clueless.

Point being, in a PVP only game. much less FREE, EZ, Kills.

It's like sending a bread maker against a battle hardened gladiator...whos gonna win.

There is a lot fo truth to this unfortunately. I remember esecially with Alb for whatever reason you would get hordes of people who were truly clueless. You might really need bottom feeders, guys who level alts 24/7 and show up once in a few days to donate RPs. People who play RvR primarily but are just not that good then have someone to kill and keep playing. If you get schooled non-stop and never win many people tend to quit which then leads to a chain reaction

 

But then again PS had a lot of really horrible players and in that game all you did is kill each other till you got bored and startd greefing your own side

  shadevice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 71

 
OP  3/10/13 12:23:00 AM#59
Originally posted by tlear
Originally posted by shadevice

Another fact about pvp/pve combo games is that PVEers, that don't really like pvp, generally suck at it.

So they were easy prey and were farmed. So the semi skilled pvpers seem a lot better than they really are.

Now when you have a pvp only game, the competiton is much more straight forward, all players obviously like pvp or they wouldn't be playing it. Wether or not they are any good still remains but a bad pvper that only pvps will still beat a pver who is clueless.

Point being, in a PVP only game. much less FREE, EZ, Kills.

It's like sending a bread maker against a battle hardened gladiator...whos gonna win.

There is a lot fo truth to this unfortunately. I remember esecially with Alb for whatever reason you would get hordes of people who were truly clueless. You might really need bottom feeders, guys who level alts 24/7 and show up once in a few days to donate RPs. People who play RvR primarily but are just not that good then have someone to kill and keep playing. If you get schooled non-stop and never win many people tend to quit which then leads to a chain reaction

 

But then again PS had a lot of really horrible players and in that game all you did is kill each other till you got bored and startd greefing your own side

PS is an entire different animal. I play PS 2 very casually right now as a heavy assault...there is skill involved and you can tell the difference. But PS style pvp is sooo different than fantasy rvr, daoc style etc...

I doubt there will be instant action deployments, massive air and vehicle assaults dropping bombs on your head while you're having your own personal battles.

PS is great for the instant gratification style pvp fix, start the game, pvp instantly rinse repeat. Death has little consequence which means lower levels of care/skill/tactical play. 

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

3/10/13 12:47:43 AM#60
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Originally posted by Stromm

If I entirely removed PvP from WoW, EQ, EQ2, GW2 or Rift tomorrow I would still have a recognisable game, and in WoW's case at least still millions of subs.

If I entirely removed PvE from WoW, EQ, EQ2, GW2 or Rift tomorrow I would have ... a brundlefly ... an unrecognisable mess. I'd have no questing, minimal lore, no 5 mans, no 10 mans, no 25 mans, no LFR, no dailies, no rifts, no hearts, no events, no puzzles. The games would be unrecognisable.

That's kinda my point. PvP is secondary in those games. A tacked on afterthought used to fill in time, like daily quests and pet battles.

WoW devs frequently nerf/buff abilities due to PvP, I agree. Why? Because they were designed for PVE and do not work well in PvP. If pvp was impactful on their subscriber base they would work on getting PvP sorted properly, instead they seem to spend more effort on pet battles and daily quests, now why do you think that is? To my knowledge there have been very few "seasons" that have no been considered broken, with certain comps being viable and the rest not, with whole class specs left to wither, and in some cases whole classes left with no options to be competetive. It. Is. An. Afterthought.

Streamers have no relevance in this discussion, 99% of MMO players have probably never streamed, most have probably never even recorded a fraps. But since you bring up web interaction I would suggest far and away more web content originates from pve than ever will or does from pvp. MLG doesn't even include WoW 3v3 anymore does it?

Hehe yeah people have been doing those same BG's over and over for years, because they locust the pve content and still want to play the game and BG pvp is a readily available disposable source of no-brain content, or because they are completionists working on cheevos/mounts/reps waddeva.

Devs from Rift realized what happened when they ignored the PvP community they left in droves and servers were completely empty.  Then what did they try to do?  Cater to the MMO community by introducing 3 faction PvP which was just too late.

Someone asked Hartsmann:

  • It doesn't seem like PvP is being "tacked on", it will be a focus.
To which he replied:
  • True. The gentleman running the team wouldn't have it any other way. (If you saw last year's E3 videos -- Russ Brown. That's him. He's awesome.) PvP is built in from the ground up, not being added to a PvE game

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/38803-rift-planes-telara-heroes-telara-e3-09-a-12.html#post1687892

When devs specially design the world around faction conflict and specially state it was not "tacted" on.  I will take their word.

Rift was never a pvp game. On the PvP servers the things that the devs said would be points of conflict never really were. Open world pvp never really materialized. WF's always trumped open world pvp in terms of fun and rewards. There simply was no real reason to do any open world pvp. Now RIFT has pretty much completely abandoned any new pvp aside from the random WF ruleset. The devs can say that their game is focused on pvp or rvr till they are blue in the face, but in the end if they don't deliver than guess what, the devs lied. In Rifts case I don't care what any dev said, the game was and is a PvE game with PvP as an afterthought tacked on. 

 

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

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