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General Discussion  » F2P or P2P Mode for TESO? What do you prefer?

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61 posts found
  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

3/07/13 3:07:40 PM#41
Personally I prefer f2p...The reason why is unless it has a free trial there is no way I will pay to try any MMO ever again.....These games all get so much hype, then you pay too much money only to learn the games aren't really all that great....Also one major flaw with this site is that too many believe p2p=great game f2p=crap and that just is not true anymore and hasn't been for a few years now.....Companies need to choose the model that makes them the most money.
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5670

3/07/13 3:23:11 PM#42
Originally posted by Seilan
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Gravarg

P2P

There's more advantages for both players and the company when you have a subscription.

What are the advantages? Name one?

There aren't any really. It is a strawman argument.

All the different gaming models are viable with F2P even more viable the P2P - why do I say that? Look at all the games that are F2P with CS now compared to P2P - it shows that the P2P is not valid any more.

I'll name multiple:

1. Content that is created without any nickel and diming in mind. Everything is made for the enjoyment of the player to keep them subbing, not as a ploy to get them to feel they NEED to open their wallets to enjoy the game properly.

2. More consistent profit = more consistent content development. Sure, this varies from game to game, but I'm hard pressed to think of a F2P mmo that has content added at the same rate of most premium P2P mmos.

3. This one might be subjective, but in my experience of playing these games for over a decade (both P2P and F2P), the community is typically better in a game with a subscription. As another poster said, there's more of a sense of a community investment, and I agree with that. WoW is the exception, not the rule. Besides, when you have a game with millions of players, you're going to get some bad seeds, even when it requires a subsription. That said, there are plenty of great people there too, you just have to weed through the bad to find the good.

4. F2P makes it far easier for bots and spammers to infest the game. Sure, there are bots and spammers anywhere you go, but there will undoubtedly be less of them when players are required to buy a box and sub first - especially if the company is vigilant in banning those that do it (which would then require them to buy and sub again).

I could go on about how the F2P system still has a stigma attached to it that rivals abortion rights in the deep south, but since you only asked for one example, this should suffice.

It's certainly not just a "strawman argument", by any means.

Every single one of your points is a subjective opinion on why you like the sub-locked model better, not why it is inherently better.

1. Content in any game is created with further revenue generation in mind.  In p2p sub-locked games that content is designed with time sinks and time gates in mind.  The concept being that time sinks equates to a longer subscription period.  Weekly raid locks, dungeon instance locks, limited dungeon rewards (e.g.: gear tokens), and other artificial time locks are total sub-lock p2p cash grabs.  The p2p revenue model also supplements that income with one of the following: box fees, micro-transactions, and/or rmt game cash sales.

2. There is no proof that your claim of consistent revenue model equals consistent content updates is true.  You caveat your claim with the sweeping vague generalization that it varies from game to game.  Guess what?  That's true in sub-free games as well.

3. That is totally subjective and again there is no proof of what you claim.  You can't exempt the WoW community because it's inconvenient for you and doesn't support your position.  Rift, WoW, and EVE don't have any better communities than GW2, TSW, EQ2, LotRO, or STO.  I would think the opposite, but that's just my opinion.

4. Not only is this point an outright falsehood on your part, I can't even believe you have the gall to claim that.  Rift has had a bot and hacker problem since it launched.  Since Storm Legion they have had a horrible bot problem with their fishing system.  Lineage, Lineage 2, and Aion have all had bot problems and well before the latter two went sub-free.  I can't think of an mmo that doesn't have a bot or hacker problem of some kind.  The payment model has nothing to do with this.

You could go on making stuff up, but please don't.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5670

3/07/13 3:27:28 PM#43
Originally posted by rygard49

P2P is my preference.

I can't stand cash shops and the need by the developer to drive business there by making the game inconvenient to play in F2P or B2P models. B2P with cash shop is the worst, imo. Not only have you purchased a full game, but now you're expected to pay beyond a box price to unlock features that should have been inluded in the original purchase (lookin' at you GW2...). No thanks.

And how is having a cash shop in a sub-free game worse than the cash shops, box fees, and officially sanctioned rmt in sub-locked games?

I think it's a gouge and a cash grab that publishers charge box fees and then a subscription to rent temporary access to your game account.  It's a gouge that they charge a sub and then sell game time tokens so people can buy an advantage in the game.  I think it's a gouge and a cash grab that they  charge a recurring fee to rent your game and then sell virtual items for extra in their store (Rift and WoW).

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/07/13 3:35:37 PM#44
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by rygard49

 

B2P with cash shop is the worst, imo. Not only have you purchased a full game, but now you're expected to pay beyond a box price to unlock features that should have been inluded in the original purchase (lookin' at you GW2...). No thanks.

In GW2 you dont have to pay for content to go beyond anywhere. Now, if i were to blindly answer the same way you are doing it (with hatred towards certain model) then i would say P2P is the worst, not only you have to pay full box price and expansions, but you have to pay every month even to log in.

Just accept that every model is viable when done right. You said P2P is your preference, so you should know that THAT doesnt mean other models are wrong, you just like one. The only wrong model is the P2W used by shady companies that dont care about games and customers, only about money.

You cash shop guys always like to bring up expansions when talking about p2p, as if you don't have to pay for expansions in every price model.

I do hate the cash shop model, but it's not blind hatred. And it's not even strictly hatred for the model itself. What I hate most about the cash shop is how it turns developers into smarmy salesmen, and they play fast and loose with the truth when they're trying to sell the player on their "free" game. They say things like, "get everything for free just by playing", which is true on it's face, but deeper invesitigation shows that you'd spend years trying to earn those feature or item unlocks.

The cash shop's success is due in large part to capitalizing on (read: abusing) people with no, or very little, self-control. That defines a lot us in the gaming community. The shop is based on the idea that no game is ever going to be hot forever, and in several months many of these players will likely have moved on, so let's give them a reason and an opportunity to spend a years worth of sub money in a day.

I agree with your last statement. Every model is viable when done right. I never said P2P was the only worthwhile model, just the model that I preferred between the two.

  Seilan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/04
Posts: 804

"Blue, blue."

3/07/13 5:02:36 PM#45
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Seilan
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Gravarg

P2P

There's more advantages for both players and the company when you have a subscription.

What are the advantages? Name one?

There aren't any really. It is a strawman argument.

All the different gaming models are viable with F2P even more viable the P2P - why do I say that? Look at all the games that are F2P with CS now compared to P2P - it shows that the P2P is not valid any more.

I'll name multiple:

1. Content that is created without any nickel and diming in mind. Everything is made for the enjoyment of the player to keep them subbing, not as a ploy to get them to feel they NEED to open their wallets to enjoy the game properly.

2. More consistent profit = more consistent content development. Sure, this varies from game to game, but I'm hard pressed to think of a F2P mmo that has content added at the same rate of most premium P2P mmos.

3. This one might be subjective, but in my experience of playing these games for over a decade (both P2P and F2P), the community is typically better in a game with a subscription. As another poster said, there's more of a sense of a community investment, and I agree with that. WoW is the exception, not the rule. Besides, when you have a game with millions of players, you're going to get some bad seeds, even when it requires a subsription. That said, there are plenty of great people there too, you just have to weed through the bad to find the good.

4. F2P makes it far easier for bots and spammers to infest the game. Sure, there are bots and spammers anywhere you go, but there will undoubtedly be less of them when players are required to buy a box and sub first - especially if the company is vigilant in banning those that do it (which would then require them to buy and sub again).

I could go on about how the F2P system still has a stigma attached to it that rivals abortion rights in the deep south, but since you only asked for one example, this should suffice.

It's certainly not just a "strawman argument", by any means.

Every single one of your points is a subjective opinion on why you like the sub-locked model better, not why it is inherently better.

1. Content in any game is created with further revenue generation in mind.  In p2p sub-locked games that content is designed with time sinks and time gates in mind.  The concept being that time sinks equates to a longer subscription period.  Weekly raid locks, dungeon instance locks, limited dungeon rewards (e.g.: gear tokens), and other artificial time locks are total sub-lock p2p cash grabs.  The p2p revenue model also supplements that income with one of the following: box fees, micro-transactions, and/or rmt game cash sales.

2. There is no proof that your claim of consistent revenue model equals consistent content updates is true.  You caveat your claim with the sweeping vague generalization that it varies from game to game.  Guess what?  That's true in sub-free games as well.

3. That is totally subjective and again there is no proof of what you claim.  You can't exempt the WoW community because it's inconvenient for you and doesn't support your position.  Rift, WoW, and EVE don't have any better communities than GW2, TSW, EQ2, LotRO, or STO.  I would think the opposite, but that's just my opinion.

4. Not only is this point an outright falsehood on your part, I can't even believe you have the gall to claim that.  Rift has had a bot and hacker problem since it launched.  Since Storm Legion they have had a horrible bot problem with their fishing system.  Lineage, Lineage 2, and Aion have all had bot problems and well before the latter two went sub-free.  I can't think of an mmo that doesn't have a bot or hacker problem of some kind.  The payment model has nothing to do with this.

You could go on making stuff up, but please don't.

And your points are any different, really? Obviously this is all from my own perspective, but with the experience I've gathered over the years, as well as that of my close friends, I feel I can make a fairly reasonable judgement.


1. So you're saying that a P2P mmo has grinds and time sinks to keep people playing and subbing? Eh, no sh*t. Does that mean I should expect to have nothing to do in a F2P model game for months at a time, as I wait for them to develop content for it, with its less consistent revnue model? If so, that's what I would expect and hence the point I'm making. And you want to talk about locks, let's talk about "gated content" that some of these F2P mmos are known for, where you have to pay specficially for added content that would otherwise be included for everyone on a sub model. That brings us to the walking contradiction that is "Free to Play" - you end up paying more for the things that come standard for 15 dollars a month in a sub game. What a great deal...


2. Proof... gee, let's see, how about some examples - Asheron's Call (a game from '99 that still releases near monthly content updates for only a sub fee), EVE, WoW, EQ1 and 2 (although, to be fair, they use a hybrid P2P/F2P system that I'm not against), Rift, Final Fantasy XI, Istaria, and I'm sure I could think of quite a few more. Each of these games still release, not only small consistent content updates, but near-expansion sized amounts of content on a fairly regular basis. Now tell me, how many F2P mmos, aside from maybe Maplestory or something equally large, can make that claim?


3. Yes, which is why I said it was "subjective" and dependant of my own 10+ years of gaming experience - I take it selective reading is one of your strong suits. As for exempting WoW, I only did so because of the sheer size of it's playerbase compared to pretty much everything else, but then went on to point out that even though its community has some rough patches, you can still just as easily find a niche that suits you - you just have to weed through the bad. So really, I DID include it in my argument. Also, most of the games you listed here aren't even true F2P - they're hybrids of both P2P and F2P, and that's not what I'm arguing against. I actually don't mind hybrid systems, as it allows those of us that want to sub for the full game, the option to do so. Naturally, the communities are going to be better in a hybrid game since in most cases you still have to pony up for a box price. Not to mention, as they didn't start out as F2P (and still offer a sub option) you're most likely going to have a veteran community more reminiscent of that of a P2P mmo. You really only strengthened my point with those examples.


4. Ha, call it whatever you want, but nothing about it was "false". You pick the three Korean-based mmos where bots were known to be rampant, and an indie-developed title, as the basis for your argument? Yeah, that's doesn't really help the case you're trying to make here. I could list many P2P titles that aren't nearly as impacted (at least perceivably) by bots, as opposed to the plethora of F2P mmos that are drowning in them, but it would take awhile. Needless to say, it's more than four of them. Besides, like I clearly stated in my earlier post, I'm well aware you're going to find bots anywhere you go, but you're delusional if you think that having a box price and sub does nothing to act as a deterrent to would-be botters/spammers. But please, elaborate on how it makes no difference at all. That should be interesting.


I could continue pointing out arguments that make no sense, and... I think I will.
 

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/07/13 5:04:38 PM#46
The only chance they have of having me try the game is via F2P, I will not give money to a company using the popularity of an IP to release a rehash of a 12 year old game that no one wanted to fund making with the original name.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/07/13 5:14:10 PM#47
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by rygard49

P2P is my preference.

I can't stand cash shops and the need by the developer to drive business there by making the game inconvenient to play in F2P or B2P models. B2P with cash shop is the worst, imo. Not only have you purchased a full game, but now you're expected to pay beyond a box price to unlock features that should have been inluded in the original purchase (lookin' at you GW2...). No thanks.

And how is having a cash shop in a sub-free game worse than the cash shops, box fees, and officially sanctioned rmt in sub-locked games?

I think it's a gouge and a cash grab that publishers charge box fees and then a subscription to rent temporary access to your game account.  It's a gouge that they charge a sub and then sell game time tokens so people can buy an advantage in the game.  I think it's a gouge and a cash grab that they  charge a recurring fee to rent your game and then sell virtual items for extra in their store (Rift and WoW).

Where is it written that P2P games also have to have cash shops? I can name a few that do, but that's not a definition of the model. It seems assinine to base your entire argument against P2P on the games that use a hybrid and not a true P2P model.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17116

3/07/13 5:22:24 PM#48

I would say p2p as long as that gets the company enough money to make a great game and then continue making it a great game.

If I'm just payign a sub and I'm not getting much but connecting to the servers then I might wonder where my money is going. Still, if the game is very enjoyable it might not be that big a deal and the the money is well spent.

f2p is only viable if it doesn't buy "indulgences".

well, then again, the f2p company is going to constantly be shoving their adverts in my face and their specials. makes it feel like I'm being sold to and sold to "hard".

 

  Seilan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/04
Posts: 804

"Blue, blue."

3/07/13 5:49:22 PM#49
Originally posted by Sovrath

I would say p2p as long as that gets the company enough money to make a great game and then continue making it a great game.

If I'm just payign a sub and I'm not getting much but connecting to the servers then I might wonder where my money is going. Still, if the game is very enjoyable it might not be that big a deal and the the money is well spent.

f2p is only viable if it doesn't buy "indulgences".

well, then again, the f2p company is going to constantly be shoving their adverts in my face and their specials. makes it feel like I'm being sold to and sold to "hard".

 

Exactly. It's also a slippery slope kind of situation. What might start out as a decent, non-instrusive, reasonable F2P system, can quickly devolve into something more "nickel and diming" and restrictive, if certain financial metrics aren't met. A "nature of the beast" kind of thing and all that jazz.

Then again, I suppose it's better than having a decent game shut down completely, due to a lack of funds. That said, I look at F2P as more of a last resort than anything else.

 

Edit: added/corrected a few things.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

3/07/13 7:06:16 PM#50

P2P

I dont want to subsidise the peasants

  Waldoe

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/10
Posts: 624

3/07/13 7:11:47 PM#51
SE got it right with 12.99 per month. 
  Eir_S

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4700

GW2 socialist.

3/07/13 7:23:12 PM#52
Originally posted by rygard49

P2P is my preference.

I can't stand cash shops and the need by the developer to drive business there by making the game inconvenient to play in F2P or B2P models. B2P with cash shop is the worst, imo. Not only have you purchased a full game, but now you're expected to pay beyond a box price to unlock features that should have been inluded in the original purchase (lookin' at you GW2...). No thanks.

You don't have to pay anything in GW2, if you have the gold.  Even then, it's much less grinding than you'll do while paying a subscription for a few pieces of gear a month.  Your argument is wonked, but continue to enjoy being forcefully drained of cash instead of when you want to be.

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1718

3/07/13 7:26:08 PM#53
Definitely B2P, as long as the cash shop isn't pay to win.  I'm ok with cosmetics only in a cash shop becuase there will always be people who like to buy that stuff.  I think GW2 and TSW have proven that B2P is a successful model.  It may be possible to have a new P2P game turn a nice profit, but I think what happened to SWTOR was a reality check for a lot of devs and players.  If TESO starts as P2P then I will just wait 6 months for it to convert to F2P or B2P before I start playing.  If it stays P2P then I will simply not buy the box and subscribe, no biggie.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/08/13 10:26:34 AM#54
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by rygard49

P2P is my preference.

I can't stand cash shops and the need by the developer to drive business there by making the game inconvenient to play in F2P or B2P models. B2P with cash shop is the worst, imo. Not only have you purchased a full game, but now you're expected to pay beyond a box price to unlock features that should have been inluded in the original purchase (lookin' at you GW2...). No thanks.

You don't have to pay anything in GW2, if you have the gold.  Even then, it's much less grinding than you'll do while paying a subscription for a few pieces of gear a month.  Your argument is wonked, but continue to enjoy being forcefully drained of cash instead of when you want to be.

I can see I've committed the cardinal sin of naming GW2 in a negative post about it's payment model.

What you've written here is exactly the kind of spin that devs are forced to regurgitate over and over about F2P cash shops in order to get players on board. The argument that you can get everything for free is not really true. What you're doing is having someone else pay for your cash shop items for you. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, obviously when they buy your gold you're just trading your time for their real world money just like in any real world job. But it's dishonest to infer that it's free.

I don't get why you think you only get a few pieces of gear per month in a P2P model. I'm subscribing to a P2P currently, and in the past month I've gotten almost a completely upgraded set of gear. Last night alone I got two pieces. Gearing has nothing to do with the payment model of the game.

Last, P2P doesn't forcefully drain you of cash. It's completely voluntary whether I pay to play for a month or not. I have no problem with the upfront expectation that I support their game with a monthly subscription, and that's no different really from you having no problem spending money in a cash shop to support your game. As another poster said, both models are totally viable if done the right way. The wrong way, in my opinion, is to lock what would otherwise be standard game features behind the cash shop after you've already payed full price for the game.

 

  Varthander

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/07
Posts: 452

Forum ranks are useless.

3/08/13 10:31:41 AM#55
im taking B2P thanks.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5670

3/08/13 11:03:42 AM#56
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by rygard49

P2P is my preference.

I can't stand cash shops and the need by the developer to drive business there by making the game inconvenient to play in F2P or B2P models. B2P with cash shop is the worst, imo. Not only have you purchased a full game, but now you're expected to pay beyond a box price to unlock features that should have been inluded in the original purchase (lookin' at you GW2...). No thanks.

And how is having a cash shop in a sub-free game worse than the cash shops, box fees, and officially sanctioned rmt in sub-locked games?

I think it's a gouge and a cash grab that publishers charge box fees and then a subscription to rent temporary access to your game account.  It's a gouge that they charge a sub and then sell game time tokens so people can buy an advantage in the game.  I think it's a gouge and a cash grab that they  charge a recurring fee to rent your game and then sell virtual items for extra in their store (Rift and WoW).

Where is it written that P2P games also have to have cash shops? I can name a few that do, but that's not a definition of the model. It seems assinine to base your entire argument against P2P on the games that use a hybrid and not a true P2P model.

What major p2p game doesn't generate additional revenue outside of the subscription?  EVE, WoW, Rift, and every other major sub-locked game generates extra revenue outside the sub.  Lineage is the only major title I can think of that doesn't have a secondary revenue source.

Not only that but WoW and Rift both directly gate progression behind paying extra beyond the sub.  If you don't buy the xpacs you don't get access to the progression.  It's the classic definition of pay to win.

Not only that, but since you're just renting temporary access to the servers, any additional money you do spend on the game is locked away once you stop paying them their recurring fees.

 

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  cybersrs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/10/10
Posts: 159

3/08/13 11:11:25 AM#57
Originally posted by Sibcoe

Hi TESO Fans - 

I wanted to share another episode of "Sicoe Asks" with you guys, the show where we ask you what you think about various topics.  In this episode I am asking what you guys think the best business model for TESO is:

 

TESO F2P?

 

Check it out and let us know what you think.

Cheers 0/

If the game is good, P2P... If it is not, F2P.  Normally that is how it is work... People work hard to pay to things they like.

  SoMuchMass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

3/08/13 11:19:03 AM#58

As the poster above me said, if it is a good game that can provide constant content then Pay-to-Play is easily the model I prefer.  If it is not good enough for a subscription fee then a F2P model is better.

If GW2 was any indication, B2P is a model for "MMO lites" that have zero longevity and almost no end game and are subpar at best.  And that is not the type of MMO I am looking for.

Games shouldn't be designed around a business model.  ANd F2P and B2P games are designed around the business model.

  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 576

3/08/13 11:45:06 AM#59
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

As the poster above me said, if it is a good game that can provide constant content then Pay-to-Play is easily the model I prefer.  If it is not good enough for a subscription fee then a F2P model is better.

If GW2 was any indication, B2P is a model for "MMO lites" that have zero longevity and almost no end game and are subpar at best.  And that is not the type of MMO I am looking for.

Games shouldn't be designed around a business model.  ANd F2P and B2P games are designed around the business model.

All games are designed around a business model. P2P games are designed around coercing the players in keeping the sub as long as possible by promising shiny loots to them (aka gear-grind). Going by the rest of your post, looks like you are the perfect gullible target for them.

As for your impression of GW2, I think many people most see something in the game that you don't see, because the game population growth rate have increased since Christmas. If it was subpar shouldn't it be dying?

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/08/13 11:46:27 AM#60
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by rygard49

P2P is my preference.

I can't stand cash shops and the need by the developer to drive business there by making the game inconvenient to play in F2P or B2P models. B2P with cash shop is the worst, imo. Not only have you purchased a full game, but now you're expected to pay beyond a box price to unlock features that should have been inluded in the original purchase (lookin' at you GW2...). No thanks.

And how is having a cash shop in a sub-free game worse than the cash shops, box fees, and officially sanctioned rmt in sub-locked games?

I think it's a gouge and a cash grab that publishers charge box fees and then a subscription to rent temporary access to your game account.  It's a gouge that they charge a sub and then sell game time tokens so people can buy an advantage in the game.  I think it's a gouge and a cash grab that they  charge a recurring fee to rent your game and then sell virtual items for extra in their store (Rift and WoW).

Where is it written that P2P games also have to have cash shops? I can name a few that do, but that's not a definition of the model. It seems assinine to base your entire argument against P2P on the games that use a hybrid and not a true P2P model.

What major p2p game doesn't generate additional revenue outside of the subscription?  EVE, WoW, Rift, and every other major sub-locked game generates extra revenue outside the sub.  Lineage is the only major title I can think of that doesn't have a secondary revenue source.

Not only that but WoW and Rift both directly gate progression behind paying extra beyond the sub.  If you don't buy the xpacs you don't get access to the progression.  It's the classic definition of pay to win.

Not only that, but since you're just renting temporary access to the servers, any additional money you do spend on the game is locked away once you stop paying them their recurring fees.

You're naming major games that use a hybrid model, not P2P. It's meaningless to argue against one payment model, and then use a completely different payment model as evidence for your argument. I hope you understand that the premise of this thread is a debate betwen P2P and F2P, and not hybrids. Think original WoW, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, UO, etc.

Your second paragraph made me laugh out loud. You're implying that F2P titles don't expand their games? That they don't "lock" (lol) their content behind purchasing an expansion? DDO just had an expansion released that you have to purchase in order to play. That's the nature of the MMO beast, not the direct result of whatever payment model the game uses.

 

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