Originally posted by gillrmn

 

Please read once again carefully. I think you missed the part just under where you cut the quote. I also consider forking path just one most minor element of non-linear gameplay.

 

I am a proponent of repetition so here it is:-

 

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H are sub-quests. A can be free a woman, B can be fight the trolls, C can be solve a puzzle, D can be perform a magical ritual, D can be etc etc etc.

 

Now, first of all:-

 

1- You can choose to do them in any order.

2- Suddenly you decide that if you kill the troll(B) you need not rescue the woman(A). So if you do B before A, A disappears. If you do B after A, you can still do it.

3- You decide that only one of E,F or G,H should be done - not both.

4- Player may not be able to find quest  D which you have hidden. If he finds it, traps spring up in some other quest (like G and H).

5- If the player decides to leave all the quests, he should be able to do so. Or if you want the player to do at least one of A,B,C and two of E,F,G,H : you should be able to make it so that those quests be done before the player can finish the map(i.e. at least 1+2 quests in total).

6- Player should find all quests accidently. Like if he decides to talk to an old woman and help her, only then he finds quest A.

7- You suddenly decide to punish the players. So if he does choose to kill a puppy somewhere, you block quest C from ever being done.

 

 

If this is linear quest, then any non-linear quest in PnP or video games is yet to be discovered by mankind. And the real life is completely linear too.

Well, that certainly makes sense and I'm glad you feel that the fork is the least of non-linear story telling.

However, when you talk of non-linear game play, especialy when story is concerned, it also brings up the idea of truly non-linear story events.

I'm not talking about choosing an event which in many cases is just that, "choosing your path or choosing/ignoring events that then spawn different choices.

I'm talking about stories that not only take place in one story direction but incorporate what is called "disjointed narrative".  At least that's what my professors called it.

That could be a story running backwards or two stories, one running forward in time and one running backward where both intersect at a climactic and very meaningful point.

In game play it could mean one's "present" story where one picks one's choices and then those choices help fill out a backstory where the player is also a participant. So, going forward from the present also creates the past or at least generates events in the past where the player can also affect the future. Truly "non-linear" game play.

However, you do go on to say that most players don't like truly non-linear game play and I would agree that is the case.

wrong quote    X.X 

If UGC starts to churn unprecedented content, ten developers will surely devote their time in other things. Post launch, the development is responsive in nature. If the users feel that content is less, devs spend their limited time in making new content.

If there is too much of content already, made by users - the devs will spend less time in content and more on things which matter and require urgent attention. For example, if foundry goes off too well then devs will be more pressed on giving more features in foundry tool itself, making more races, more classes etc.

However, devs are not expecting more than 10% quality content from foundry side. This estimate is based on STO and assumption that NW will have good authors. Hence foundry tool will not make a very big contribution in distribution of dev time. Nevertheless, unexpected can happen in D&D! Who knows that there is so much content that devs prioritise races and classes and we have more classes instead of content.

But according to interviews, foundry is there for temporary support to devs and not really as a replacement for official content. They are looking towards foundry content not initially, but something that should sustain them in longer run like it worked for games like NWN1.

Originally posted by Sovrath

:trimmed for readability:

However, you do go on to say that most players don't like truly non-linear game play and I would agree that is the case.

The point which you are bringing forward is I believe, the persistence of flags outside of maps.

No, you can't carry flags outside of the map you play in. So if you are using a trigger, it has to be triggered n same map. Devs have said it is something to look for post launch (persistant zones) but not during or 'near soon' after launch.

However, there are ways to counter this limitation - creativity triumphs tools.

One way creative people at STO suggested me was to use pass pharases as flags. i.e. When some flag is to be carried over to next map, tell the player in first map that he has to do one particular thing out of 30 combinations in map 3. So when he reaches map 3, if he has done a particular flag in map 1, he will be able to uncover the flag in map 3.

However this requires that player reads the dialog - something which you will find surprizingly lacking in MMO crowd. Eventually you will find that one rare person out of hundred will actually find that "something suspicious happened in map 3" and nobody will actually realize what clever strategem you used. Surprizingly, even most ntellgent and diligent players will miss it - even me if I play your quest. This is because tons of official content and hand-holding with golden trail path with compass and all will numb my true RP skills and explorer skills.

The first time I made sub-quests, even most initellegent players never realized there was a sub-quest. Simply because they never expected it after playing (what I think is) dumb linear official content.

Originally posted by gillrmn

Originally posted by Sovrath

:trimmed for readability:

However, you do go on to say that most players don't like truly non-linear game play and I would agree that is the case.

The point which you are bringing forward is I believe, the persistence of flags outside of maps.

No, you can't carry flags outside of the map you play in. So if you are using a trigger, it has to be triggered n same map. Devs have said it is something to look for post launch (persistant zones) but not during or 'near soon' after launch.

However, there are ways to counter this limitation - creativity triumphs tools.

One way creative people at STO suggested me was to use pass pharases as flags. i.e. When some flag is to be carried over to next map, tell the player in first map that he has to do one particular thing out of 30 combinations in map 3. So when he reaches map 3, if he has done a particular flag in map 1, he will be able to uncover the flag in map 3.

 

However this requires that player reads the dialog - something which you will find surprizingly lacking in MMO crowd. Eventually you will find that one rare person out of hundred will actually find that "something suspicious happened in map 3" and nobody will actually realize what clever strategem you used. Surprizingly, even most ntellgent and diligent players will miss it - even me if I play your quest. This is because tons of official content and hand-holding with golden trail path with compass and all will numb my true RP skills and explorer skills.

The first time I made sub-quests, even most initellegent players never realized there was a sub-quest. Simply because they never expected it after playing (what I think is) dumb linear official content.

Now that I find interesting, Of course that is a good point, how to make the player pick the appropriate flag with only a small bit of dialogue.

Still, it's intriguing because now one can make a decision in the present (to use my previous example) and then, if they kill their brother they can then (next map (?) which is in the past) somehow pick a choice that allows for a scene to play out in the past with their brother, a possible reveal with the brother and then in the next map that reveal (flag?) can then move the story forward.

Whereas if they kill their sister it then fleshes out the past differently, different reveal and that affects the story in the present much differently. That is if I'm understanding you correctly.

edit: or maybe the flag isn't dialogue but an object? one that is tied to a decision in the present and which the player has an option of picking the appropriate object in the past that then supports the correct decision in the present.

Yes, can be done - though too much pain and very little appreciation for all that pain will be the story for it :)

Flag, or more accurately,trigger - can be anything. It can be your choice to choose and carry one item out of four, your choice to use object, your choice to walk in a praticular area - even dialog may be possible as a trigger.

But self-satisfaction after creating such a story will be only reward.

EDIT:trigger can also be disarming a trap or killing a particular set of mobs.

Sadly it seems I was not able to get my old quest "The Wild Moon(mote) Chase" up before beta transfer. So beta players this time cannot play it. I will try to make sure that the quest is up by beta weekend 3.

So those of you who were interested in having a look on how to make quest non-linear (sandbox) may have to wait till next beta.