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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Tanks and their common ability... Taunt.

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87 posts found
  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

3/07/13 11:27:56 AM#21
Originally posted by killion81
Originally posted by PerfArt
Agreed, Van. Taunting can serve a purpose if designed for RvR from the ground up. A way for tanks to protect people can exist outside of shield bashing.

Example: if you have an ability (taunt) activated, every time that you strike an enemy, they target you despite what their current target is. Perhaps Taunt mode could reduce your damage dealt by these strike to reflect that you aren't going for killing blows, but trying to save your ally.

They could keep manually targetting after each hit, but tgeir attacks would A) be slowed and B) be likely to hit you oftentimes instead.

Kinda cool.

 

 

Clever way to implement taunt.  Another simple way would be to force the person being taunted to target the taunter for a specified period of time, maybe 2 seconds (give or take depending on the speed of the combat).  This pulls them off someone long enough that a well coordinated heal could turn the tide of the battle.  Could even use AoE taunts that last 1 second, once again used to provide a comrade with a slight break in damage received, used for escape or survival.  Probably have to put diminishing returns on this to prevent tanks from chain taunting a single target.

There are definitely ways that a taunt mechanic could work in PvP.

 

+1 to PerfArt and killion81

 

I was going to write up a detailed summary, but you guys beat me to it.  I don't think that forcing a player to target another target is the correct direction, but lowering the overall damage output of the specific target or something?  Game developers and players have labeled taunts as, "XYZ ability FORCES TARGET to redirect aggression to PLAYER".  When I think of taunting, I think of people literally taunting and enraging someone else until they snap; as in not being able to think clear headedly.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/07/13 11:29:20 AM#22
For your former post, not the most recent lol. Though I respect your opinion and your passion for CU, many daoc mechanics took control from players. That's part of the pvp dynamic.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Vanshoodie

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 35

 
OP  3/07/13 11:37:02 AM#23
Originally posted by killion81
Originally posted by PerfArt
Agreed, Van. Taunting can serve a purpose if designed for RvR from the ground up. A way for tanks to protect people can exist outside of shield bashing.

Example: if you have an ability (taunt) activated, every time that you strike an enemy, they target you despite what their current target is. Perhaps Taunt mode could reduce your damage dealt by these strike to reflect that you aren't going for killing blows, but trying to save your ally.

They could keep manually targetting after each hit, but tgeir attacks would A) be slowed and B) be likely to hit you oftentimes instead.

Kinda cool.

 

 

Clever way to implement taunt.  Another simple way would be to force the person being taunted to target the taunter for a specified period of time, maybe 2 seconds (give or take depending on the speed of the combat).  This pulls them off someone long enough that a well coordinated heal could turn the tide of the battle.  Could even use AoE taunts that last 1 second, once again used to provide a comrade with a slight break in damage received, used for escape or survival.  Probably have to put diminishing returns on this to prevent tanks from chain taunting a single target.

There are definitely ways that a taunt mechanic could work in PvP.

That is how it worked in EQ2. A tank used a hate modifying ability (don't want to use "taunt" anymore) and the target of the ability was forced to target the tank for 3 seconds. If overly used the tank could end up with too many people hitting them and would die. I just think it is a good idea that can be built upon with other damage reduction/shield support type abilites.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/07/13 11:38:08 AM#24

Well exactly and i've stated them, "root, mezz, stun, snare" But like I said they take away in a different way than inabling someones ability to target someone they want... ( i guess this is also dependant on them not doing a stupid FPS style targetting system LOL ).

 

There are abilities you can give a tank that can help protect his healers without guarenteeing immunity and taking control away from the player like forcing their target would do. I just see this mechanic as cheesy.

I would compare it to BodyGuard from ToA that was added that when a tank bodyguarded someone you would just stand there not being able to attack, it made no visual sense and there was always work arounds, it was a crutch that people used when they screwed up... Instead of being punished for playing bad. This is different, but I feel it would garner the same cheese factor as it. Unless you're stalled out ( stunned / mezzed ) you shouldn't be able to not attack the target you want... ( lower hte damage, give your healer a shield that has to be broken before you can be interupted etc. do something else ) don't force someone that they're chasing to not be able to attack them...

Just picture chasing someone and someone casts it on you, your target changes so you're following someone trying to attack and out of your control you're forced to target someone behind you. It is just silly. Think outside the box more please.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

3/07/13 11:40:45 AM#25

In large fights WAR taunt is absolutely broken, target swapping mechnanic is worse can you imagine what will happen in 50 vs 50 fight with couple dozen tanks on each side.. /quit

 

Distinction between melee dps and tanks is just not needed if you have no pve in game. Just have couple different melee classes per realm with a bit different flavor. For example Polearmsman with single target and aoe specs and ?? with shield and sword and Zweihander spec lines

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/07/13 11:43:46 AM#26
Originally posted by tlear

In large fights WAR taunt is absolutely broken, target swapping mechnanic is worse can you imagine what will happen in 50 vs 50 fight with couple dozen tanks on each side.. /quit

 

Distinction between melee dps and tanks is just not needed if you have no pve in game. Just have couple different melee classes per realm with a bit different flavor. For example Polearmsman with single target and aoe specs and ?? with shield and sword and Zweihander spec lines

Thank you! +1

WIth the limited classes MJ has stated he is going to look at ( might not have a choice with minimum developers / money ).

There may just be 1 melee class with two option specs, melee dps ( dual wield ), melee dps ( 2hand ), defense / peeler ( shield / snares / guards  ).

I miss the arms / hero / warrior classes in daoc, they were so versitile.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Vanshoodie

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 35

 
OP  3/07/13 11:44:40 AM#27
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Well exactly and i've stated them, "root, mezz, stun, snare" But like I said they take away in a different way than inabling someones ability to target someone they want... ( i guess this is also dependant on them not doing a stupid FPS style targetting system LOL ).

 

There are abilities you can give a tank that can help protect his healers without guarenteeing immunity and taking control away from the player like forcing their target would do. I just see this mechanic as cheesy.

I would compare it to BodyGuard from ToA that was added that when a tank bodyguarded someone you would just stand there not being able to attack, it made no visual sense and there was always work arounds, it was a crutch that people used when they screwed up... Instead of being punished for playing bad. This is different, but I feel it would garner the same cheese factor as it. Unless you're stalled out ( stunned / mezzed ) you shouldn't be able to not attack the target you want... ( lower hte damage, give your healer a shield that has to be broken before you can be interupted etc. do something else ) don't force someone that they're chasing to not be able to attack them...

Just picture chasing someone and someone casts it on you, your target changes so you're following someone trying to attack and out of your control you're forced to target someone behind you. It is just silly. Think outside the box more please.

I have played like this. I do not have to picture it being done to me. As far as a complete game changer, it is not. You may instead land your larger damage ability on the tank instead of your weakened foe. So you missed.. swap back targets and continue.

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4785

3/07/13 11:50:11 AM#28

I'm sorry, but 'taunt' is a grandfathered mechanic meant for a simplified PvE setting. While there are ways you can shoehorn it into PvP, it really doesn't have a role in a PvP environment. At best, it could be a debuff or forced target drop, but it really doesn't solve ANY of the problems tanks typically have in PvP.

The real solution is simple, and has already been done by multiple games with target-based combat. Give tanks the bulk of CC abilities / mobility. This makes tanks hard to avoid (kite), and difficult to ignore (since they're interrupting your abilities constantly, thus reducing your effectiveness).

Unfortunately, few people seem to understand how to handle tanks that are actually viable in a PvP setting, and will rage nerf them into the ground.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/07/13 11:57:33 AM#29

No you wouldn't attack anything unless the tank is standing in front of you.

 

Intercept ability in DAOC did this exact thing and was simplier implementation that changing someones target. Tank just takes next hit instead of their target. Solved.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

3/07/13 12:06:59 PM#30
Originally posted by tlear

In large fights WAR taunt is absolutely broken, target swapping mechnanic is worse can you imagine what will happen in 50 vs 50 fight with couple dozen tanks on each side.. /quit

 

Distinction between melee dps and tanks is just not needed if you have no pve in game. Just have couple different melee classes per realm with a bit different flavor. For example Polearmsman with single target and aoe specs and ?? with shield and sword and Zweihander spec lines

QFT, you don't want target switching mechanics as a soft cc. Put taunts on styles like daoc for the very little pve there is and leave it at that.

  Vynt

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/04
Posts: 599

3/07/13 12:12:11 PM#31

I've always liked the guard and intercept abilities in daoc. Tank jumps in front of blow to take the hit or block it.

Now if a person is chasing someone who is chasing someone, there are better things to do that forcing them to change target. Tanks usually have disarm. Disarm that person going after your healer, now they can't hit. Make them fumble, or if you're close enough, often there were attacks, especially from behind that had a snare, or a stun from a shield bash.

A forced target change is so unnecessary.

  Teh_Axi

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

3/07/13 12:49:58 PM#32

Why not just make Tanks generate threat in a natural way?

Like by making them really good a interrupts and CC?

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3756

RIP City of Heroes!

3/07/13 2:46:19 PM#33
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

You guys are just talking about other abilities a "peeler / melee support class" might have... Labelling it taunt is inaccurate and don't know why you have to have an ability called "taunt"

Stop calling it taunt and throw around ideas, DAOC's taunt system is still unmatched imo, having an ability to force someone to attack you is forcing them to not control their character ( in a different way than stun/mezz ) and not in a good way.

Please don't make this game just a mash of pushing people back, pulling them around, forcing them to do things... There is only so much CC that is needed.... I don't think you guys understand because it seems all the games you played didn't have mezz / stun / root system. WIth these there are plenty of tactical choices to stop someone to get heals off, etc.

 

But continue idea mashing, just stop calling it taunt lol

 Call it Fruit Salad, does that make you feel better?  You sound very upset.

You talk about all these other abilities, why  not taunt?  We understand it makes you very emotional to have it, but why not other than your opinion on it?   I don't want over powered stealth but I suspect will we end up with invisistealth.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3756

RIP City of Heroes!

3/07/13 2:49:05 PM#34
Originally posted by Vanshoodie
Originally posted by killion81
Originally posted by PerfArt
Agreed, Van. Taunting can serve a purpose if designed for RvR from the ground up. A way for tanks to protect people can exist outside of shield bashing.

Example: if you have an ability (taunt) activated, every time that you strike an enemy, they target you despite what their current target is. Perhaps Taunt mode could reduce your damage dealt by these strike to reflect that you aren't going for killing blows, but trying to save your ally.

They could keep manually targetting after each hit, but tgeir attacks would A) be slowed and B) be likely to hit you oftentimes instead.

Kinda cool.

 

 

Clever way to implement taunt.  Another simple way would be to force the person being taunted to target the taunter for a specified period of time, maybe 2 seconds (give or take depending on the speed of the combat).  This pulls them off someone long enough that a well coordinated heal could turn the tide of the battle.  Could even use AoE taunts that last 1 second, once again used to provide a comrade with a slight break in damage received, used for escape or survival.  Probably have to put diminishing returns on this to prevent tanks from chain taunting a single target.

There are definitely ways that a taunt mechanic could work in PvP.

That is how it worked in EQ2. A tank used a hate modifying ability (don't want to use "taunt" anymore) and the target of the ability was forced to target the tank for 3 seconds. If overly used the tank could end up with too many people hitting them and would die. I just think it is a good idea that can be built upon with other damage reduction/shield support type abilites.

 I think it also add an extra bit of the fun we need in a game.  It's so easy to dog pile on a squishy but this is a nice addition.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/07/13 3:12:22 PM#35
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

You guys are just talking about other abilities a "peeler / melee support class" might have... Labelling it taunt is inaccurate and don't know why you have to have an ability called "taunt"

Stop calling it taunt and throw around ideas, DAOC's taunt system is still unmatched imo, having an ability to force someone to attack you is forcing them to not control their character ( in a different way than stun/mezz ) and not in a good way.

Please don't make this game just a mash of pushing people back, pulling them around, forcing them to do things... There is only so much CC that is needed.... I don't think you guys understand because it seems all the games you played didn't have mezz / stun / root system. WIth these there are plenty of tactical choices to stop someone to get heals off, etc.

 

But continue idea mashing, just stop calling it taunt lol

 Call it Fruit Salad, does that make you feel better?  You sound very upset.

You talk about all these other abilities, why  not taunt?  We understand it makes you very emotional to have it, but why not other than your opinion on it?   I don't want over powered stealth but I suspect will we end up with invisistealth.

I am upset, because there are a lot of people on these forums throwing around crazy ideas without thinking of all the ramifications of them first, and it scares me to see some of them in this game.

I talk about other abilities and think I've already described the why behind them already, and the why I don't like forced target swaps.

Again like a lot of people have said Stealth isn't over powered, you move slow as balls, get no speed bonuses and basically rarely have a chance to win unless you get your opening. Granted openings are generally are too high, but that's no reason to kill invisistealth as you call it.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/07/13 4:07:38 PM#36
So, Niix. Honest question:

How is causing someone to change targets different than causing them to be inactive, or causing them to be dead? I mean in the sense of inconvenience, not literally. Obviously they are different in a literal sense. But everything you do in rvr is designed to cause enemies inconvenience and/or piss them off. Why the vehement hatred for this one concept but not others?

It just seems like you hate it because it forces someone to do something, but every offensive action does that... forces you to remain immobile, or to take damage, or to be debuffed, ect.

Again, honest question. Not being a smartass here. Maybe I am just missing something you haven't mentioned.

Cheers!

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  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/07/13 4:22:06 PM#37

Because it's a crappy form of soft CC. Disarm makes sense as long as the weapon isn't visible on the character for the duration, stuns make sense, I just don't get "YOU HAVE TO TARGET THIS PERSON FOR 2 SECONDS" it feels too forced.Might as well give the tank Mind Control...  There are a lot more logical better ways to give a class thats protecting his healers.

If you've ever played DAOC and played with BodyGuard it makes as much sense as that. Standing in front of someone with nothing in the way not being able to attack. 

 

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/07/13 4:32:30 PM#38
I have indeed played a tank with bodyguard on in daoc. I was thinking if more on-the-fly methods of cc for tanks. But as you state that it's a "crappy form of cc" as your reasoning, I guess we can just agree to disagree.

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  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/07/13 4:36:49 PM#39
Originally posted by PerfArt
I have indeed played a tank with bodyguard on in daoc. I was thinking if more on-the-fly methods of cc for tanks. But as you state that it's a "crappy form of cc" as your reasoning, I guess we can just agree to disagree.

The core concept of what you want changed is the same method of soft CC bodyguard came from.

Which was one of the most terribly implimented skill/ability from TOA. I really want to avoid these mistakes in this game, I do believe these things won't be a part of CU, but I will do my part to educate people that arn't seeing the illogical nature of abilities like this.

Like i've said, plenty of other ways to add abilities to protect support without these fail soft cc abilities

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/07/13 4:40:25 PM#40
Different strokes for different folks. I will probably be happy with whatever CSE implements. One person's logic is another's illogic. I am sure it'll be fun either way! :)

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