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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is KickStarter just a charitable contribution without a tax deduction?

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71 posts found
  Jenuviel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/05
Posts: 958

Sadness is but a wall between two gardens. -Kahlil Gibran

3/06/13 10:52:41 PM#41

I just approach it as if I'm a very, very low-rent patron of the arts. I have relatively specific tastes in games, and those tastes aren't being addressed by the mainstream gaming industry. By supporting the smaller groups who, ostensibly, are trying to "get some money so they can make games" rather than the big guys who are "making games so they get get a bunch of money," I benefit not only by potentially getting a product I can actually enjoy (artists in the Renaissance frequently gave their patrons finished works), but I get to feel more hopeful about the future because I'm helping to enable broader vistas.

 

Is it capitalism? Sort of.  Is it charity? Sort of.  Is it worth it to me? Definitely.  I'd rather give $20 to people with ideas I believe in than $60 for a tired retread that's been monetized to infinity and beyond. As far as I'm concerned, I've already got my money's worth from Harebrained Schemes. The developer videos they've released are full of passion, humor and excitement, they're detailing brave ideas and how those ideas are currently being implemented.

 

Here's the big part, though: how many people did it take to get that to happen? 36,276. How many people did it take to fund Amanda Palmer's lastest album? 24,883. Kickstarter helps creative people find their audiences, big or small. It helps artists find patrons. It may even help scammers find marks, but, to me, it's worth the risk.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/06/13 10:53:55 PM#42
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by zymurgeist

 It's not a purchase because it's not a payment for an item of like value.

Good lord, you're trying to argue what kickstarter is or isn't and I let is slide because you had a different opinion, but you don't even know what kickstarter is.

The biggest project actually are a purchase, Pebble sold over 100,000 pebble watches through kickstarter, OUYA over 60,000 consoles, etc

The pledge is the purchase of the item in many cases, in fact in almost all of the major kickstarter projects, the pledge is the purchase for the item. You are buying the item.

nm after reading the kickstarter terms they ARE required to come through or provide a refund

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  majorsmerk

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 8

3/06/13 11:08:00 PM#43
Capitalism is based on a gamble.   'Free market' means you don't get to tell other people what something is worth to them.
  LadyEuphei

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/12
Posts: 226

3/06/13 11:18:22 PM#44

Hi, we acctually discussed this a few months ago. Kickstart was contacted and their response is shown in the link. The subject is about greed monger, but it has to do with all of kickstarter mostly.

ladyeuphei.com article

Here is also where mmorpg columnist adressed this same issue.

mmorpg.com

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2701

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

3/06/13 11:39:01 PM#45
I'm EA. I just sold The Earth and Beyond ip to a fake developer called AE who is actually a front company for EA in Asia. I tell them to start a Kickstarter page to get Earth and Beyond 2 off the ground. Any laws stopping them from collecting from all the clueless saps (me included)? Nope.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1302

3/07/13 12:58:07 AM#46

lol at everyone trying to sound smart.

 

This is how easy it really is to understand:

#1. Developer needs money, makes a blog to generate hype, and will sometimes offer an "exclusive" incentive, e.g., in-game title, cape, etc.

#2. You give money towards the development of a cool product. That is it. No investments or returns.

 

 

 

/end thread

 

  User Deleted
3/07/13 1:18:29 AM#47
Originally posted by Sal1
Is KickStarter just a charitable contribution without a tax deduction? Is that what Kickstarter really is?

Depends on what they offer for your donation. In many cases yes. In some cases you get serverely overvalued items and promises.

Personally I wouldn't do it, I don't get paid until I finish my work, why should they get my money before they deliver a product that I can judge?

  Warmaker

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/07
Posts: 2240

3/07/13 4:28:36 AM#48
I really do love KickStarter.  It always amazes me the new ways people find in parting fools with their money.

"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5208

3/07/13 7:27:17 AM#49
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by zymurgeist

 It's not a purchase because it's not a payment for an item of like value.

Good lord, you're trying to argue what kickstarter is or isn't and I let is slide because you had a different opinion, but you don't even know what kickstarter is.

The biggest project actually are a purchase, Pebble sold over 100,000 pebble watches through kickstarter, OUYA over 60,000 consoles, etc

The pledge is the purchase of the item in many cases, in fact in almost all of the major kickstarter projects, the pledge is the purchase for the item. You are buying the item.

 You need to reread the kickstarter rules. They don't actually have to deliver those things although most companies will. You would have a hell of a time making a fraud case if they didn't because, just like Kickstarter says, it's a donation.  Unforseen circumstances do arise. That's not an opinion. It's a fact. Kickstarter can be a wonderful thing but go in with your eyes open.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3581

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/07/13 10:11:38 AM#50
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Vrika

Kickstarter would only be charity is backers were not promised anything valuable in return. So many Kickstarter projects promise finished (and valuable) products to the backers that it's a purchase, not a charity.

says who? where? never once did i assume when putting money into kickstarter the project is a guaranteed to every be released

why put money into any "charity" if you aren't getting a return that directly benefits you(aside from maybe a tax break).. can't believe how selfish people are here sometimes.. you think people spend millions upon millions a year on various research projects to cure diseases because they only want something directly back to benefit them?

sometimes people believe in an idea and want to do what they can to see it come to light

also kickstarters always come with tons of perks so you are not just giving the money away for nothing unless of course the game never gets made

There are damn few guarantees in real life... Why would you expect one from Kickstarter?  Its a simple process. Do your own research and make your own choices. If you see nothing you wish to back, then so be it.  If I happen to lose the money involved, I'll just shrug, and write it off.  I can always get more money. I can't always find an entertaining game to play.

But I seriously suspect, that as the money moves up from the minor leagues, that the investor types will use their politicians to strangle this with endless regulations, to make certain that it doesn't become a route of effective competition. It will no doubt be under the guise of "protecting" people.

  Vrika

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/03/05
Posts: 2125

3/07/13 10:53:54 AM#51
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by zymurgeist

 It's not a purchase because it's not a payment for an item of like value.

Good lord, you're trying to argue what kickstarter is or isn't and I let is slide because you had a different opinion, but you don't even know what kickstarter is.

The biggest project actually are a purchase, Pebble sold over 100,000 pebble watches through kickstarter, OUYA over 60,000 consoles, etc

The pledge is the purchase of the item in many cases, in fact in almost all of the major kickstarter projects, the pledge is the purchase for the item. You are buying the item.

 You need to reread the kickstarter rules. They don't actually have to deliver those things although most companies will. You would have a hell of a time making a fraud case if they didn't because, just like Kickstarter says, it's a donation.  Unforseen circumstances do arise. That's not an opinion. It's a fact. Kickstarter can be a wonderful thing but go in with your eyes open.

Zymurgeist you need to reread the Kickstarter rules, like the part where it says:

   "Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill".

Or where it says:

   "By creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Project Creator are offering the public the opportunity to enter into a contract with you. By backing a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Backer accept that offer and the contract between Backer and Project Creator is formed"

Kickstarter Terms of Use are clear that it's not a donation, it's a contract between project creator and the backer. And the project creators are obliged to either fullfill their promises or refund the backers.

Source for quoted rules: http://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/07/13 11:56:18 AM#52
Originally posted by Vrika
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by zymurgeist

 It's not a purchase because it's not a payment for an item of like value.

Good lord, you're trying to argue what kickstarter is or isn't and I let is slide because you had a different opinion, but you don't even know what kickstarter is.

The biggest project actually are a purchase, Pebble sold over 100,000 pebble watches through kickstarter, OUYA over 60,000 consoles, etc

The pledge is the purchase of the item in many cases, in fact in almost all of the major kickstarter projects, the pledge is the purchase for the item. You are buying the item.

 You need to reread the kickstarter rules. They don't actually have to deliver those things although most companies will. You would have a hell of a time making a fraud case if they didn't because, just like Kickstarter says, it's a donation.  Unforseen circumstances do arise. That's not an opinion. It's a fact. Kickstarter can be a wonderful thing but go in with your eyes open.

Zymurgeist you need to reread the Kickstarter rules, like the part where it says:

   "Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill".

Or where it says:

   "By creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Project Creator are offering the public the opportunity to enter into a contract with you. By backing a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Backer accept that offer and the contract between Backer and Project Creator is formed"

Kickstarter Terms of Use are clear that it's not a donation, it's a contract between project creator and the backer. And the project creators are obliged to either fullfill their pormises or refund the backers.

Source for quoted rules: http://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use

also this one 

"Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward."

so looks like if the project tanks and game is never made they ARE required to give a refund since the creator wouldn't be able to fullfill game rewards if there is no game.. so guess it's not really that much of a gamble afterall.. +1 for kickstarter:)

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4265

3/07/13 12:01:18 PM#53
Originally posted by Ramonski7
I'm EA. I just sold The Earth and Beyond ip to a fake developer called AE who is actually a front company for EA in Asia. I tell them to start a Kickstarter page to get Earth and Beyond 2 off the ground. Any laws stopping them from collecting from all the clueless saps (me included)? Nope.

I believe they have to be a registered company to start a campaign on Kickstarter in the US and UK.

So you could if you wanted to take a look into said company and gain a lot of information and possibly find out if they have any ties to big publishers..

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/07/13 12:14:30 PM#54
Originally posted by Sal1
Is KickStarter just a charitable contribution without a tax deduction? Is that what Kickstarter really is?

I think it is more like a fantasy world where you can say anything trying to con people into giving you money.

Personally, i don't believe in it at all. Won't spend a dime on kickstarter. Show me the product, and may be i will buy. I don't pay for wishful thinking.

  Aison2

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 613

3/07/13 12:15:47 PM#55

Classic concept:

Devs ask for money from publisher

publisher gets X% of earnings

 

Kickstarter:

Devs ask for money from player

player gets game

 

Kickstarter is simply eliminating the third party (publisher) at the cost of transferring the risk of investment in a failed product from the third party to the player. Saying that the devs have nothing to loose in this is wrong. The quality of their product will determine if the players will help funding their next game.

Pi*1337/100 = 42

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/07/13 12:39:20 PM#56
Originally posted by Aison2

Classic concept:

Devs ask for money from publisher

publisher gets X% of earnings

 

Kickstarter:

Devs ask for money from player

player gets game

 

Kickstarter is simply eliminating the third party (publisher) at the cost of transferring the risk of investment in a failed product from the third party to the player. Saying that the devs have nothing to loose in this is wrong. The quality of their product will determine if the players will help funding their next game.

player may or may not get the specified game .... fixed.

  Aison2

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 613

3/07/13 12:45:05 PM#57
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aison2

Classic concept:

Devs ask for money from publisher

publisher gets X% of earnings

 

Kickstarter:

Devs ask for money from player

player gets game

 

Kickstarter is simply eliminating the third party (publisher) at the cost of transferring the risk of investment in a failed product from the third party to the player. Saying that the devs have nothing to loose in this is wrong. The quality of their product will determine if the players will help funding their next game.

player may or may not get the specified game .... fixed.

try reading the whole post

Pi*1337/100 = 42

  ArChWind

Elite Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 531

3/07/13 9:44:33 PM#58
Originally posted by Aison2
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aison2

Classic concept:

Devs ask for money from publisher

publisher gets X% of earnings

 

Kickstarter:

Devs ask for money from player

player gets game

 

Kickstarter is simply eliminating the third party (publisher) at the cost of transferring the risk of investment in a failed product from the third party to the player. Saying that the devs have nothing to loose in this is wrong. The quality of their product will determine if the players will help funding their next game.

player may or may not get the specified game .... fixed.

try reading the whole post

I don't think they really care about the 'next game' if they are fleecing you.

I did find some interesting information that may interest some here.

http://blog.icrowd.com/crowdfunding-fraud/

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7307

3/24/13 2:38:31 AM#59


Originally posted by Sal1

Is KickStarter just a charitable contribution without a tax deduction? Is that what Kickstarter really is?

Yep, that is exactly what Kickstarter is.

You are donating healthy people in productive age that are absolutely not in any material need.They should have no issue to find a job, yet they are begging for money.

Quite disgusting in my book...

  Apraxis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

3/24/13 7:28:28 AM#60
Originally posted by Terranah

Back in the old days, devs released a crappy game and prayed some poor idiots bought it before the word spread it was shite.  Hell, devs still do this today.

 

But now days we have what's called kick starter where you just promise a game and people will give you money.  Can it be legitimate?  Yes.  But the potential for abuse is great in my opinion.  What are the safe guards so people don't lose their money?

 

I pay $60 for a game if I like it.  There's a lot of great ideas or games I would like to play but have no funding.  Would I be willing to pledge $1000 or $10,000 to a game's development to see it to fruition with no payout other than to play what in the end is a $60 game for what amounts to a few online trinkets, a title, or some other digital equivalent marking me as a founder.  Hell to the fooking no.

 

Now...if there was a promise to share in the rewards at release, like purchasing of stock or bonds, I might have a different view.

 

Back in the old days, gaming was about having a good time.  Now it's all about microtransaction, freetoplay scams and finding ways to part little nerds from their hard earned cash. 

 

That's my take.  Anyone here made any money from their 'investment' in kickstarter?

Well.. for me it is some kind of prepurchase. As most MMOs nowadays offers prepurchase with beta access 6 month before release, a kickstarter is prepurchased in the very beginning of the development cycle.

I usually dont invest more than 50$, mostly less around 30$ with beta access,  and only in projects i believe it will be released and they have actually some experienced game developer and some credit. Games like Star Citizen or even a MMO like Pathfinder. Is it worth it? Well.. it is more or less as much worth as any other game i bought without a lot of research before. Some are shit, other are great, but after all its just 30-50 bugs.

And the advantage of crowdfunding is, that the developer have full creative control over the project, and this is a huge advantage in the hand of a veteran designer like Chris Roberts or Peter Molyneux. And in all honestly i fully understand that a lot of veteran designer now go the way with kickstarter, without any restricting publisher, because of the creative freedom.

And all of those veteran designers got there bad experience and headaches with publishers in the past.

But is there the potential of fraud? Of course, and everytime i see a kickstarter promises the heaven, and want to accomplish it with just a few hundred thouseds or even less, i basicly know they dont know what to do, and will never be able to deliver anything worthwhile. (so never invest in a mmo kickstarter with less then 1$ million projected goal, and for a single player game anything less than 500k is very dubios)

But do i believe Star Citizen will be a playable game? Or the recently funded Torment: Tides of Numenera? I would bet almost any amount that they will be playable. Will they be fun for you, or me? I guess its up to preference, as with any game.

Buttom line is that veteran game designer have regulary made good to very good games, and were in the past more often than not restricted from publishers. Just look at the biography from design legends like Peter Molyneux, Chris Roberts and a few others. If you invest in nonames you will take the full risk.

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