Originally posted by Swiftrevoir

I don't think the genre is dead, its just stale.  The idea of a large game world with millions of little nerdlets running around pretending to be things is still a promising and fruitfull premise.  Its just that almost every big budget venture into this concept has been done in the safest tried and true measure that we feel as if we're being led by the hand through the same amusement park that's just been recently repainted. 

It takes me all of a day now to figure out if I can spend months let alone years on a game. 

 MMO gods....you have to realize that the cash cow is running out.  People are catching on homedawgs.  Its time to use your imaginations again. 

BTW Planetside 2 is still awesome ^^, but then again its not your typical MMO.  Although I can't play it all day like I used to with some MMOs its not necessarily designed to be lived in.  Only to be WAAAAGHed in.

Nothing stale about it, you have at least 5-6 triple-A quality MMO's coming out within hte next year and most of them are as far removed from WoW as the original 3 were.  If this was 2007, I would agree with you but when you got games like, Neverwinter, ESO, EQN,AA, Repop, and Wildstar all releasing within the next year it looks better then ever and makes you sound foolish to say the genre is stale.

The gaming industry is basically following in the footsteps of Hollywood.  That's great if you like disposable popcorn entertainment, or endless sequals, or reboots, etc..  Not so great if you like any depth.  Seriously look at the industry, and you'll see all the parallels, and it starts with the small number of very large publishers that control nearly all the green-light decisions.

It's not just an MMO problem.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Swiftrevoir

I don't think the genre is dead, its just stale.  The idea of a large game world with millions of little nerdlets running around pretending to be things is still a promising and fruitfull premise.  Its just that almost every big budget venture into this concept has been done in the safest tried and true measure that we feel as if we're being led by the hand through the same amusement park that's just been recently repainted. 

It takes me all of a day now to figure out if I can spend months let alone years on a game. 

 MMO gods....you have to realize that the cash cow is running out.  People are catching on homedawgs.  Its time to use your imaginations again. 

BTW Planetside 2 is still awesome ^^, but then again its not your typical MMO.  Although I can't play it all day like I used to with some MMOs its not necessarily designed to be lived in.  Only to be WAAAAGHed in.

Nothing stale about it, you have at least 5-6 triple-A quality MMO's coming out within hte next year and most of them are as far removed from WoW as the original 3 were.  If this was 2007, I would agree with you but when you got games like, Neverwinter, ESO, EQN,AA, Repop, and Wildstar all releasing within the next year it looks better then ever and makes you sound foolish to say the genre is stale.

AAA games basically equal summer blockbuster films.  Heavy on explosions and special effects, but not really all that great.  The fact that all of the AAA stuff that's coming out is basically either rehashing existing designs, albiet with a few F2P tweaks, doesn't exactly make for very exciting releases.

Originally posted by jazz.be

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I said is in my thread before. The genre isn't dying. It's just that the mindset has changed and developers aren't changing with the new mindset.

the same music that was in the 80s and 90s isn't popular anymore in 2013 like it once was. Why? Because mindset of consumer changed. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

Well to pick up on your comparision, music is suposed to make you dance, feel good, feel bad, feel nostalgic, feel sleepy, have sex, attend a funeral, celebrate a birthday and so on.

To me music hasn't changed at all, today's music still does all that and has done so for centuries. It's the whole purpose of music.

 

Back to the games. It's not about how the games technically change. To me it's about how they change our approach to the game. It looks more like coop adventure games these days with very limited depth. The whole reason you play MMO's in today's titles is different than the older ones. Yes I take the most hated MMO of all time: WoW :)

But I've played some EQ2, and I believe EVE certainly still respect those old principles even if the package is completely different.

We don't need popularity in games, we need quality ;-)

 

I don't know, it's late, maybe I don't make any sense at all.

I actually think OPs vision is pretty good one. Games these days do the same what game in old days did.. only they are focused more on different generation. Just like music.

If we go further.... you could say vanilla wow and gw2 are 2 very different games. But so is 80s music and these days music. Still there are people that enjoy 80s music and hate today's music... the same way people like vanilla wow and don't like action combat of gw2.

I don't know, did we just hit "generation problem" in gaming? Maybe "grandpas" of gaming are getting conservative and say "when we were young, games were so much more fun..." etc.

Originally posted by Kaleston

Originally posted by jazz.be

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I said is in my thread before. The genre isn't dying. It's just that the mindset has changed and developers aren't changing with the new mindset.

the same music that was in the 80s and 90s isn't popular anymore in 2013 like it once was. Why? Because mindset of consumer changed. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

Well to pick up on your comparision, music is suposed to make you dance, feel good, feel bad, feel nostalgic, feel sleepy, have sex, attend a funeral, celebrate a birthday and so on.

To me music hasn't changed at all, today's music still does all that and has done so for centuries. It's the whole purpose of music.

 

Back to the games. It's not about how the games technically change. To me it's about how they change our approach to the game. It looks more like coop adventure games these days with very limited depth. The whole reason you play MMO's in today's titles is different than the older ones. Yes I take the most hated MMO of all time: WoW :)

But I've played some EQ2, and I believe EVE certainly still respect those old principles even if the package is completely different.

We don't need popularity in games, we need quality ;-)

 

I don't know, it's late, maybe I don't make any sense at all.

I actually think OPs vision is pretty good one. Games these days do the same what game in old days did.. only they are focused more on different generation. Just like music.

If we go further.... you could say vanilla wow and gw2 are 2 very different games. But so is 80s music and these days music. Still there are people that enjoy 80s music and hate today's music... the same way people like vanilla wow and don't like action combat of gw2.

I don't know, did we just hit "generation problem" in gaming? Maybe "grandpas" of gaming are getting conservative and say "when we were young, games were so much more fun..." etc.

Yeah we could debate this to death sure why not, I like doing that while being paid to do other things :-)

But I'll keep it short.

In fact I agree perhaps there is a generation clash indeed. But in that case It's better we just finish with it and say the only truth. The MMORPG is dead. It's a new generation and it contains many new elements at the cost of the core elements of what used to be the MMORPG. There is no shame in saying that. We don't call our music today disco do we?

Originally posted by 77lolmac77
Non-sandbox MMO's and drug addictions are more similiar than a lot realize. And id like to think I know a lot about both.

Gaming in general is addicting, not just MMO's.

I got a fresh cup of coffee and everything. Planned on a long post explaining my points of view.

Bleh.

Why?

I am just one lone gamer and frankly my opinion only matters to me.

To that point I will keep my remarks short, and to the point.

At their inception I thought the idea of "living in an online virtual world", was most probably some sort of mental dysfunction. Later, I found that getting to play in a group with others was quite fun. Now I find the focus on solo play until a threshold is reached and you then do an instance of approiprate level, followed by more solo content, to just be tedious. For me, the point is  to play with others in these games. Yet, the general attitude seems to be one of, join a guild so you have someone to chat with while you solo thes 10 levels to the next instance. I played City of for years and it was always one I came back to. Less and less over the years as NC caved and "Smoothed the leveling curve", "Made the game more solo friendly", and finally "Added incarnate trials, and the gear grind they brought". I still think back to those days and long to run a lowbie through the sewers, take part in a PUG Hamidon raid, or do any of the Task Forces. SImply put I long for group interaction, not chat, or zerged events, but real group play.

I see now I have begun to ramble. Meh.

I don't cry or despair, I move on. Now I paint miniatures and roll REAL dice. I find it brings a much larger sence of accomplishment.

I will try the new ones as they come out I always enjoy the 1st month or so when everyone is working together to figure things out and explore new things. Mabye one of these coming out will get me to play longer than a few months. I am looking for a game that will keep me entertained for years not months.

I still give em a chance just havnt found anything of interest for awhile now. Mabye games are getting easier, I like to think Im getting smarter. One day I will be the smarterest and I will just create my own game.

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by 77lolmac77
Non-sandbox MMO's and drug addictions are more similiar than a lot realize. And id like to think I know a lot about both.

Gaming in general is addicting, not just MMO's.

Skinner boxes are addicting, finely sculpted games, books, movies, songs, etc are compelling, learn the difference gents.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Swiftrevoir

I don't think the genre is dead, its just stale.  The idea of a large game world with millions of little nerdlets running around pretending to be things is still a promising and fruitfull premise.  Its just that almost every big budget venture into this concept has been done in the safest tried and true measure that we feel as if we're being led by the hand through the same amusement park that's just been recently repainted. 

It takes me all of a day now to figure out if I can spend months let alone years on a game. 

 MMO gods....you have to realize that the cash cow is running out.  People are catching on homedawgs.  Its time to use your imaginations again. 

BTW Planetside 2 is still awesome ^^, but then again its not your typical MMO.  Although I can't play it all day like I used to with some MMOs its not necessarily designed to be lived in.  Only to be WAAAAGHed in.

Nothing stale about it, you have at least 5-6 triple-A quality MMO's coming out within hte next year and most of them are as far removed from WoW as the original 3 were.  If this was 2007, I would agree with you but when you got games like, Neverwinter, ESO, EQN,AA, Repop, and Wildstar all releasing within the next year it looks better then ever and makes you sound foolish to say the genre is stale.

To re-quote Theocritus from post #29 in this thread,

" People always think great games are coming and when these great games finally launch we learn they aren't so great......"

I'll be very surprised if even 2 or 3 of the titles you mentioned don't end up following the traditional launch and tank model that most other titles in the past 6 years or so have gone. (outside of WOW, EVE and a handful of others)

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Psychow

OP, it's hard to like anything if all you think of any game is "just another WoW clone"

 

Try going in positive. Maybe WoW and some of the other themepark type MMOs aren't as bad as you envision. Nobody is going to make the perfect game that you dream about. So either alter your tastes or move on.

No, they're pretty awful. Like, mental abortion game design wise. 

 

Nobody is asking for a perfect MMO, just a decent one. 

 

Man, telling someone to alter their tastes... these kinds of apologists need to go. 

Awful to you. Modern MMOs are much better games than the old ones, to me. It is just a matter of preferences.

And no, no one is asking you to alter your taste. However, it is also fair game to point out that your taste is out of step with the modern times, and no devs have any obligations to make games that you like.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Swiftrevoir

I don't think the genre is dead, its just stale.  The idea of a large game world with millions of little nerdlets running around pretending to be things is still a promising and fruitfull premise.  Its just that almost every big budget venture into this concept has been done in the safest tried and true measure that we feel as if we're being led by the hand through the same amusement park that's just been recently repainted. 

It takes me all of a day now to figure out if I can spend months let alone years on a game. 

 MMO gods....you have to realize that the cash cow is running out.  People are catching on homedawgs.  Its time to use your imaginations again. 

BTW Planetside 2 is still awesome ^^, but then again its not your typical MMO.  Although I can't play it all day like I used to with some MMOs its not necessarily designed to be lived in.  Only to be WAAAAGHed in.

Nothing stale about it, you have at least 5-6 triple-A quality MMO's coming out within hte next year and most of them are as far removed from WoW as the original 3 were.  If this was 2007, I would agree with you but when you got games like, Neverwinter, ESO, EQN,AA, Repop, and Wildstar all releasing within the next year it looks better then ever and makes you sound foolish to say the genre is stale.

To re-quote Theocritus from post #29 in this thread,

" People always think great games are coming and when these great games finally launch we learn they aren't so great......"

I'll be very surprised if even 2 or 3 of the titles you mentioned don't end up following the traditional launch and tank model that most other titles in the past 6 years or so have gone. (outside of WOW, EVE and a handful of others)

 

Of those mentioned Repop will be interesting to see and Neverwinter online mainly because the former promises allot while the latter is the best iteration I can think of of the WoW model game.

So the debate is..  "fast food players vs. cook a meal at home players"?

     Old school players grew up using the entire kitchen to make a meal, whereas the new skool players loving fast food or anything that can be microwaved in seconds..  I guess it is all preferences.. But times are changing, I see it in the schools each year.. The size of marching bands are dwindling with each class, and how many people actually take part in after school programs like thespians?  Even the all mighty sports interest havce slowed down a bit.. Less and less people are taking part in offline activities.. Golf leagues are suffering, Bowling leagues have suffered tremendously.. The younger generation has little time for entertainment that takes months or years to pay off.. 

     From where I sit, this isn't a MMORPG problem, but a cultural one as well..  Even the simple enjoyment of reading a book for leisure is declining, and statitistic show it having an important impact on society..  Old school has it's place in the world, that much is sure.. 

I agree with the OP. 

Nothing annoys me more than people saying WoW is similar to EQ.  They are very different games.  The thing I most enjoyed about MMO's was the social aspect of needing other players to do things.  And by needing I do not mean I cannot do anything alone but I do mean I cannot make it to max level without ever needing another player.  Or at the very least it should not be much more efficient to solo to max level than it is to play as a group... by all classes which now for some reason can do every single task.

All classes should not be tanks, should not have 2-10 crowd control abilities, should not be DPS, healers, utility.  I should not be able to have a group with 3 paladins where 1 is tanking, 1 is healing, and 1 is dpsing, and then every single one has their own special buff.  If there are classes they need to be well defined and not changeable.  Hybrids work but you cannot have various roles like this.  You need to be able to say this class will tank, this class will heal, this class will dps, and this class will be our CC.  Maybe you can supplement but not every class should be able to fill any role and do it just as well as all the others.

WoW to me always sucked and I always blame it for the downfall of MMO.  I blame the cartoon graphics brining in the younger kids who now seek clones of WoW which are not challenging, they are simply repetitive and not fun.

Originally posted by tixylix

I mean I haven't liked a single one since 2005 and have been looking in the genre ever since. My point is however that the MMORPG genre has evolved into this WoW clone genre, where you make a character, log in, speak to an npc to kill 10 rats, do this until you're high enough level to get to the next zone, to repeat it all again. You then end up doing this until you get to the end game which is made up of standing around wondering what to do because you're bored of Battlegrounds and bored of instances. 

I got into the genre back in the day because I wanted virtual worlds, games back then offered this and they were all massively different from each other as the genre was in it's infancy and we didn't have many worlds. Now however MMORPG just means a game like WoW and I know EQ fanbois will be complaining, however they aren't true EQ fans. I mean I'm sick of these people who pop up and say WoW is an EQ clone........ sorry but play EQ from 2000 and play WoW from 2004, they were massivel different games, that is why EQ people hated it. 

The MMO genre was also one that amazed graphically as well as scale wise. I mean the genre has this weird perception now where it's always looked bad and never been immersive and now every MMO is some cartoony thing... again thanx to WoW. I remember pre WoW where I was thinking the graphics are amazing for what it was doing. I remember playing EQ in Upper School and my parents saying how good looking it was and I remember games like EQ2 and SWG blowing everyones minds. I mean even Planetside looked good back in 2003, I was blown away with many things in that game. The genre has seemed to given in though to the current gen consoles and never truely entered the DX9 era and just seemed to have stuck with WoW graphics. 

After playing Dayz I realised it isn't me, it's the games and how when a game creates an amazing world with challenge, not only do I jump on it, but so do 1.6 million other gamers. I realised that the MMORPG genre that I used to love was basically a genre for emergent gaming, a sandbox one where we create the story and one where we have control. 

 

I reminded myself, I love SIm City, I love The SIms, I love EVE Online, I love Dayz, ArmA and every other game in this style. My Fave MMOS were EQ Pre Luclin/PoP, EVE, PoP and SWG Pre CU. My fave games are the Dayz or the GTAs or the Euro Truck Simulators lol. Ones that are for the hardcore, ones that don't treat the gamer as dumb, ones that you create the story and give you control.

 

There is nothing more boring to me than doing a kill 10 rats quest for some NPC who gives me some shit 3 line dialogue of story for why I'm doing it over and over again. Even games like SWTOR or GW2 where people claimed they were different, I ended up doing the same thing over and over.

 

So I realise, this genre is dead and the games I strive for aren't part of it.

I don't think the genre is dead, but it certainly has changed into something bad compared to how it used to be. Overall, I agree with most of what you said. I miss gaming before the WoW revolution hit the genre.

Yep o.p., the genre is very much dead.

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Originally posted by Burntvet
As others have mentioned, even though some of the original games "exist", they are so far from their roots that they might as well not...

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Yes exactly. Agreed, the MMORPG genre is actually shrinking.

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Originally posted by Sovrath
...And the quests can be taken out, that's fine.

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I hadn't considered this but I like the idea. In 8,000 hours of EQ, I rarely quested.

Games are costly today (and a dissapointment to their shareholders) because companies are not spending their money wisely. Voiceovers FTL. Great MMOs require technology, ability, vision, and leadership. We have plenty of the first two and almost none of the last two.