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News & Features Discussion  » General: Everquest Next: 'We Like Permadeath'

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144 posts found
  Margrave

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 454

3/06/13 7:02:42 PM#61

Smedley and McQuaid have had more than enough to learn from.

  adam_nox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 1983

3/06/13 7:02:50 PM#62

"The first everquest didn't have permadeath"

And yet, the first EQ players still have no life.  NAILED IT!

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

3/06/13 7:03:21 PM#63
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Zarriya
As much as I like the Smed...

 

/falls over...

Someone actually likes Smed?

I do too. He is a genius with an IQ of 180+

 

That's about <insert random number here> more than the <insert target player group> has

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Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
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  SBFord

MMORPG.COM Staff

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 12064

 
OP  3/06/13 7:03:37 PM#64
UPDATE: SOE's Dave Georgeson has rebutted Mr. Smedley's permadeath Tweet by saying, "There is NO permadeath in EQN and we wish the permadeath rumor would die a permadeath."

Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
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  nilden

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/26/05
Posts: 820

3/06/13 7:04:23 PM#65
Originally posted by Telondariel
Originally posted by SBFord

Sony Online Entertainment's John Smedley has sent out a cryptic and very interesting Tweet today indicating that Everquest Next just may feature permadeath.

We like permadeath for EQN

Join the conversation on Twitter. Discuss!

Hrmm.. *grumbles*

 

I am not interested in this feature at all.  None of the other EQ's had permadeath as a feature, so why bring it to EQN?  The people that will flock to this game will be the long time fans, and if we wanted that feature in an EQ game it would have been brought up before.  It hasn't, so there you go.

 

My concern is that it will play out like SOE's Wizardy Online.  The touted the whole permadeath thing, but it ended up being permadeath-lite.  When you died there was a chance (a good one) to come back, and if you bought items from the Cash Shop then you were guaranteed a ressurection.  I have no desire to see a similar mechanic in EQN.  Zero.

 

 

Actually they did try permadeath on Discord and it was a complete flop.

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  SuperNick

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/07
Posts: 329

3/06/13 7:19:03 PM#66

Can't say i'm a fan of losing 300 hours or even 3 hours of my time spent in a game.

Glad they've debunked this.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1828

3/06/13 7:33:05 PM#67
Originally posted by Saerain

A promising bit of cryptic teasing, for me.

I think that characterizing people who want character death and those who don't want character death as ‘hardcore’ on one side and ‘casual’ on the other is grossly misrepresenting the debate.

I am, by most definitions I've seen, a casual gamer. I only have maybe 4-6 hours a week that I devote to gaming, these days, even though I used to play a great deal more. I'm uninterested in PvP (although I appreciate its existence in a game world for freedom's sake, I don't actively seek it out) and despise raiding (raids are clusterfucks—I hate clusterfucks). I'm not competitive, I don't enjoy Schadenfreude, I'm not masochistic, and I'm not looking to stroke an e-peen.

I'm a causal PvE guy who basically plays to enjoy the setting.

However, I am all in favor of character death.

Not because it's ‘hardcore’ but because it's death. Removing it from the realm of possible consequences dramatically cheapens any conflict in the world. If no one can be killed, what the hell is any person in this world trying to accomplish by going into combat? It makes the gameplay seem even more psychotic than it already does.

A world with thousands of unkillable superheroes constantly fighting unkillable foes is... interesting, but the setting is almost never built to acknowledge the situation.

It also baffles me that people opposed to character death always seem to assume a game in which is designed to ‘kill’ your character just as often as any other. It has always seemed obvious to me that you would, instead, design such that defeats are not fatal by default. Make being killed (whether by AI or another player) appropriately significant for something that could relieve you of your character. Remember, in the original EverQuest, falling into unconsciousness before death? I don't think it's difficult to imagine how to develop even just that simple idea into a workable and very scalable death system.

Don't make the world as a whole a giant grind arena and unless you choose to challenge death, it shouldn't be a reasonable concern.

Yeah, I'd hate to lose my character. Pretty sure anyone should. We hate to lose characters in RPGs, too, but we're mature enough to not ragequit those—maybe because playing an RPG isn't like slaving away at a data entry job. In an RPG, no one thinks of a dead character as ‘lost work’ like a spreadsheet lost in a power outage, but as a story that has concluded. Let character death encourage better game design.

If SOE attempts it with EQN and it fails? Just as good. It'd demonstrate a way in which not to do it. Let's not be so afraid of mistakes that we don't have any opportunity to learn from them.

 

Could you please point me to a single adventure based MMO that hasn't made death a common occurance?  I can tell you from experience that Wizardy Online, which is SOE's current perma death hack and slash MMO, death is not exactly rare, in fact it happens a lot more than you would expect for a perma-death mechanic.  No matter how fun and entertaining an MMO may be, it still requires a lot of effort and time investment, all of which I would not like to see thrown down the drain for any reason other than I decide to delete it myself.  I can deal with XP loss and even loss of a recently gained level, both of which can be rectified with minimal frustration.  Perma-death, even if given 100 total lives and the ability to sacrifice hard earned gear for insurance, is a deal breaker for me.

 

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1828

3/06/13 7:37:03 PM#68
Originally posted by adam_nox

Has no one mentioned EVE yet?  It has permadeath (sorry, it does, perma death doesn't have to mean hardcore diablo style death).  Everyone just seems to love that game on this site, so I don't see where the complaints are coming from.

 

It's all in the implementation.  And I'm all for them trying.  In a way, it's like item decay, it adds a kind of sink to the game that can prevent overinflation and enhance other aspects of gameplay. 

 

The perma-death lovers on this site are in the minority.  That is why you are seeing so many of us normal gamers coming out against this.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1828

3/06/13 7:39:17 PM#69
Originally posted by SBFord
UPDATE: SOE's Dave Georgeson has rebutted Mr. Smedley's permadeath Tweet by saying, "There is NO permadeath in EQN and we wish the permadeath rumor would die a permadeath."
 

Thank you David, via Susan.  I was really, really worried there.

  Hallanger

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/06/13
Posts: 1

3/06/13 8:02:32 PM#70
Originally posted by adam_nox

Has no one mentioned EVE yet?  It has permadeath (sorry, it does, perma death doesn't have to mean hardcore diablo style death).  Everyone just seems to love that game on this site, so I don't see where the complaints are coming from.

 

It's all in the implementation.  And I'm all for them trying.  In a way, it's like item decay, it adds a kind of sink to the game that can prevent overinflation and enhance other aspects of gameplay. 

Yeah.

  OgreRaper

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

3/06/13 8:08:39 PM#71

 

Permanently losing my toon because of a lag spike sounds super fun. Glad they squashed that stupid rumor.

  Butch808

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/16/09
Posts: 313

3/06/13 8:24:42 PM#72
Inb4 David georgeson gets fired.
  Saerain

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/06
Posts: 932

3/06/13 8:46:40 PM#73
Originally posted by Vorthanion

Could you please point me to a single adventure based MMO that hasn't made death a common occurance? 

I'm not sure what you mean. If by ‘death’ you mean the possiblity of not winning in combat, of course that's common, and I don't make any suggestion that it shouldn't be. If by ‘death’ you mean death, then usually it's not possible.

Part of what I'm saying is that not winning doesn't have to equal death. We should be used to this notion by now because we're used to not dying when we lose, as that is the norm. I don't want to suggest that we change that, but expand on it.

 

Originally posted by Vorthanion

No matter how fun and entertaining an MMO may be, it still requires a lot of effort and time investment, all of which I would not like to see thrown down the drain for any reason other than I decide to delete it myself. 

 

Being in presumably good psychological health, of course you wouldn't like something unpleasant to happen. I'm with you there. But that's why I think it's valuable as a risk. A high risk for high-risk situations.

It also allows the fiction to not disintegrate in cases where, you know, people are not supposed to actually be immortal. Whereas if they are, then whatever.

Also, maybe you've never played RPGs, but if you have, did you have the same kind of ‘down the drain’ mentality regarding the loss of a character? I've just never seen that happen, so I find the difference curious.

 

Originally posted by Vorthanion

I can deal with XP lose and even loss of a recently gained level, both of which can be rectified with minimal frustration.  Perma-death, even if given 100 total lives and the ability to sacrifice hard earned gear for insurance, is a deal breaker for me.

A game basically designed like EQ or WoW or otherwise your typical MMO except that you can't recover from defeat doesn't even occur to me when the subject comes up. The possibility of actual character death should, I think, obviously entail that you are not killed so simply; that you do not simply replace respawning with not respawning.

I see more than one way to go about it, but one of the sorts of things I immediately imagine is something like a base lethality rating for various enemies, influenced by your standing with their faction. It should take serious hatred (or an intrinsically lethal nature) to want to actually kill someone they defeat in combat, and players should want to take appropriate extra care approaching such enemies if they dare to.

PvP would certainly be a riskier affair, as always, that I'd like to avoid if possible, but EVE's security/CONCORD/bounty system makes sense to me in this context.

 

Originally posted by OgreRaper

Permanently losing my toon because of a lag spike sounds super fun. Glad they squashed that stupid rumor.

I'd agree that's not a reason to die, and that's one of the reasons that death should not be so simple as ‘You take x damage. You have died.’ I don't think anyone but the staunchest Internet tough guys claim to want that, and I'm not even sure they're serious.

Favorites: EVE, VG, LotRO | Playing: None | Anticipating: SC, ESO, TD, EQN, WoD

  Zarriya

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 222

3/06/13 9:38:10 PM#74
Originally posted by FromHell
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Zarriya
As much as I like the Smed...

 

/falls over...

Someone actually likes Smed?

I do too. He is a genius with an IQ of 180+

 

That's about more than the has

Well after his trolling today - I may like him a little less  ;)

  User Deleted
3/06/13 9:50:03 PM#75
looks like the producer has to reign in the CEO here :)     Saying shit like we like permadeath for EQN can turn away millions.
  cronius77

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1234

3/06/13 9:55:25 PM#76
Smed is just trying to troll people and getting attention like donald trump does. He cannot stand not being in the limelight and being the center of attention. If EQnext released with permadeath it would be company suicide regardless of what the few here that like permadeath think.
  Alber_gamer

Elite Member

Joined: 10/08/12
Posts: 396

3/06/13 10:05:59 PM#77
I won't be playing an online permadeath game ever. The risk of losing hundreds of hours of progress to a server/connection hiccup just makes even the best game that a human could create not worth playing for me.

My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/06/13 10:06:16 PM#78
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by SBFord
UPDATE: SOE's Dave Georgeson has rebutted Mr. Smedley's permadeath Tweet by saying, "There is NO permadeath in EQN and we wish the permadeath rumor would die a permadeath."
 

Thank you David, via Susan.  I was really, really worried there.

Any wagers this one still appears in forum arguments 10 years from now?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  EndDream

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/05
Posts: 1170

3/06/13 10:13:05 PM#79
Originally posted by Yizle
Originally posted by FromHell

Best news since I heard that Star Citizen will also have permadeath :D

Could it be.. do games get hardcore again? MMOs no longer catering to carebears? Too good to be true.

Name me one permadeath game that has came out and succeeded? How many of these too good to be true permadeath games are you currently playing?

I have no qualms with pvp open world and full loot but permadeath is stupid.

Diablo...Diablo 2... Diablo 3....DayZ...

Remember Old School Ultima Online

  Ratero

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 287

3/06/13 10:14:34 PM#80
Originally posted by garretth

Did any of you play Isle of Kesmai...way back when?  (hint:

I played LoK and IoK and I still miss playing that game today.

They had permadeath, but you had to really work at it.

Permadeath came from being eaten by certain Boss Mobs.  They changed it somewhat so that when you were eaten then you just went to the Underworld to do the quests so  you could get to the portal to bring you back to the game.  When eaten all your gear was dropped and  you had to hope someone you knew was on-line so they could run up to where you died and try to get your gear back or you had to run there after you returned from the Underworld.

If you died, you went to the underworld and had to fight your way back up.    By doing this your 'death' was removed.

Yep... done those quests to many times to count. :D

if you didn't do the time in the underworld, then I think it was 3 deaths and you were out of the game.

If you were "sent" to the Underworld by being eaten then the ONLY way back to the game was to do the Underworld quests.  You could go to the Underworld yourself if you so desired to remove bad Karma and to regain lost Consitution  points.  In either case... you had to do the quests to return to the game.

Leveling was long and hard.   Each level took twice as much experience...it was a big, big deal to be lvl 17 and only a few made it to 20.   You played carefully and with lots of friends.   Experience earned was precious and gave you status.

Leveling was not that  bad but your right it did take forever to do.  You could pay the Trainers TONS of gold and each gold was 1 exp.  The really hard part was gaining SKILL levels which was more important than your actual character level.   Each new level was 2x the exp of the last level you had and it took over a year to get close to a very high level let alone high skill level character.

It was fun.   If you killed someone you had to ask for their 'forgiveness' because that was another strike against you.

Yep... you could also sacrifice a Tiger figurine to the Ghost to remove bad Karma.  Going to the Underworld with bad Karma was a real pain since once  you got there you were then considered EVIL with a Red name and all the Neutral mobs would attack you.  Doing the Karma quest was a royal pain and  you pretty much had to do that before you could start on  your normal Underworld quests to return to the game.  

I know of a case where the players ganged up on a high level player that was not well liked and repeatedly killed him until he was permanently dead.

Even though a player was high level did not mean that they could not be killed.  But I don't think players could perma-death another player.

I have seen players kill another player in town and take their corpse over to one of the Trash Barrels and then search the corpse over the Trash Barrel.  When this was done all the equipment on the searched player would fall intot he Barrel and be gone from the game.  This was seldom done.

 

Very hard core

I still have fond memories of LoK and would love to play it again.

Ratero.

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