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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Pre-WoW how often we're MMOs crappy?

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  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6221

 
OP  3/06/13 7:45:07 PM#1

Back before WoW, what was the ratio of good MMOs to crappier MMO?

this is based on your opinion. And how would you compare that ratio to the MMO genre every 3 years after WoW released in 2004?

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

3/06/13 7:50:18 PM#2

Before WoW, there were far less people that expected every MMO to be made specifically for them. More importantly, there were less expectation of what an MMO "should be" so there was more acceptance of different types.

It's not that there are more or less 'crappy' MMOs before or after WoW.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Destai

Elite Member

Joined: 8/31/09
Posts: 526

3/06/13 7:58:38 PM#3

You know, I've asked myself this question before, and not only in the MMORPG genre. I only played Everquest before World of Warcraft and looking back, it doesn't seem like it was a good game. I'm not certain what magic it had back then - maybe I was just younger and less jaded. The world did seem more imaginative than more recent offerings, but when I log into it I can't play it. The UI is especially dated and the game systems are not clearly presented as they are in modern games. It's not just technology that has changed, it's people's expectations. When I play a game, I except clarity in how to play it. I expect it to be approachable. Everquest and its generation are hard games, and while there is a certain mystique they have over the current generation, I don't miss the lack of polish. 

To address your question of crappy games to good ones, I don't think that was a consideration. There weren't a million new MMOs coming every week, there were only a handful and they all had dedicated followings. 

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6221

 
OP  3/06/13 8:01:33 PM#4
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Before WoW, there were far less people that expected every MMO to be made specifically for them. More importantly, there were less expectation of what an MMO "should be" so there was more acceptance of different types.

It's not that there are more or less 'crappy' MMOs before or after WoW.

 

 

So you believe if more people would lower their expectation of what a MMO should deliver, than there would be more huge smashing titles?

 

well what cause this rise in expectation? I havnt seen much to give me a reason to see a rise in expectation .whats the cause?

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1888

3/06/13 8:04:17 PM#5
I played 3 MMOs before WoW came out.  Neocron, Earth and Beyond, and SWG.  For those that were playing MMOs before WoW might know about how E & B turned out.  For me, E & B was the crappy one.  So my ratio is 1 out of 3.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  nilden

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/26/05
Posts: 993

3/06/13 8:09:58 PM#6
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Before WoW, there were far less people that expected every MMO to be made specifically for them. More importantly, there were less expectation of what an MMO "should be" so there was more acceptance of different types.

It's not that there are more or less 'crappy' MMOs before or after WoW.

 

 

So you believe if more people would lower their expectation of what a MMO should deliver, than there would be more huge smashing titles?

 

well what cause this rise in expectation? I havnt seen much to give me a reason to see a rise in expectation .whats the cause?

I think it's pretty obvious that WoW raised the bar. Then everybody and thier dog tried to copy it, for the most part very poorly.

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  Yaevindusk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1276

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

3/06/13 8:14:40 PM#7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvK8fua6O64

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/06/13 8:16:22 PM#8

Nothing has changed outside of there being a larger amount of people playing MMOs. Its the same ratio of people complaining, complaining about complainers and trolls.

Nothing you or anyone else can say will make me forget the uproar near the end of Anarchy Onlines beta and the month following its release...nothing will make me forget the flamwars that spread from the Lore websites onto IGN and others...nothing will wipe away the massive in game protests of DaoC about how bad Mythic was treating Hybernia and how they were ignoring the massive RvR imbalance...nothing will change how during the making of EQ2 and AC2 people were talking about how DaoC runied the genre creating massive amounts of developer handholding that is bleeding into newer games.

WoW was only a byproduct of previous games ideas with a few new ones thrown in.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1888

3/06/13 8:16:38 PM#9
Originally posted by nilden
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Before WoW, there were far less people that expected every MMO to be made specifically for them. More importantly, there were less expectation of what an MMO "should be" so there was more acceptance of different types.

It's not that there are more or less 'crappy' MMOs before or after WoW.

 

 

So you believe if more people would lower their expectation of what a MMO should deliver, than there would be more huge smashing titles?

 

well what cause this rise in expectation? I havnt seen much to give me a reason to see a rise in expectation .whats the cause?

I think it's pretty obvious that WoW raised the bar. Then everybody and thier dog tried to copy it, for the most part very poorly.

I tend to agree with this.  All the other games I played up until WoW were sandbox style and they all involved a lot of grinding.  WoW did a great job of disguising the grind with quests and showing/leading you to other areas where more mobs were level appropriat for a more smoother leveling experience (mostly).  Also the two distinct factions and world pvp was done so much better compared to the other games I was previously playing.  Blizzard was just taking advantage of being at the right place at the right time and they struck gold with it.  The proof is in the pudding and they have shown us how big their pudding bowl is.

Edit: I also want to say that during pre-WoW, internet MMO databases were fewer and farther between with hardly any good and reliable quest/mob info.  Finding good grinding areas was a lot harder back then becuase you just couldn't really look stuff up on the internet and find.  Not to mention a lot of players tended to keep their good grinding spots under wraps just like RL hunters and fishermen. Thus this made a questing based MMO like WoW a god-send for me,..at the time.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  Nilenya

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 349

3/06/13 8:17:27 PM#10

My first mmo was EQ. At the time I played it in 99 through to 2004, I knew of UO. Lineage and Darkage of Camelot either contemperary or comming out during those years. - I think Runescape was a browser game and dont consider it an mmo (snob that I am) 

 

So untill the news broke of an SWG in the works, and Lineage 2 going beta, you really could count on one hand the mainstream MMO games available at the time. - In 2004 world of warcraft was in friends and family beta, and I quit EQ to playtest the game. - A few other titles came out during the year of wow testing. I think swg might have launched, and I think EVE was in the works or near launch. There were a couple of pvp centric western developed games as well. All of them were successfull and long lived. EVE is a good example. And I think Funcoms pvp title is still alive as well. Along with EQ and the others ofcourse barring swg (sadface)

So to answer your question, there was no mmo crappyness because mmo's as a mainstream fastfood type of entertainment did not exist. You could not fx purchase one game, whine about it, and try another, and another and another and another. There simply werent enough, and they were so diverse that it was easy to choose where you fit in. - We took breaks when rl broke down due to this new exiting gaming, but we didnt go on the non existing mainstream gaming websites to whine with other people. - We NAG'd on our server forums mostly, or read alone on Fires of Heaven website.

 

The discontentment we have now stems from our awareness of how the game mechanics work or should work, and wether they can be consumed at a rate we find agreeable.

When we stepped into the mmo stream the first time - we did not have preconceptions, we knew not the mechanics underlaying everything. We thought if we could imagine it, surely the developers could too, and thus the ship might get attached by a dragon, or the orc commander might actually figure out a smart way to waylay us while we travelled. 

Today you consider how likely it is, based on cost and time consumption that a developer would include this or that into the game and your keen eyes observe the stitching, the quality of the fabric and NOT ONLY the way the game feels to play and what wonderfull surprises might come along.

 

So, we have changed as players and we are much harder to surprise let alone enthrall and delight. 

And as everything else that goes from niche to mainstream quality, dilutes to the hero of quantity. Kind of like how music works that way too - in game specifically; we are nolonger purely fed by other enthusiast gamers, but by big cooperations with shareholders to consider,  who hold the game developers to high expectations with little to no interest in the mmo gaming industry themselves, those expectations being money, not innovative risky new horizons to the mmo genre.

  Vhaln

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/05
Posts: 3167

3/06/13 8:20:36 PM#11

My list of MMOs, pre-2004:

UO, aside from massive launch issues, no, not crappy.

EQ, great alternative to UO, almost its complete opposite, not crappy

Asheron's Call, unique alternative to both of them.  Aside from the graphics, definately not crappy.

Anarchy Online.. was ok, once launch was sorted out.  Not crappy, but didn't really grab me.

DAOC, best MMO so far, all things considered.

SWG, pre-NGE, pretty damn good, too.

CoH, fun for a few months, but kinda shallow.  Crappy, though?  Nope, wouldn't say that.

EVE, not everyone's cup of tea, but really well done, for what it is.

Earth & Beyond.. ok, yeah have to agree with the above poster.  It had its appeal, but even more shallow than CoH.  Might call this one crappy.  I wasn't surprised to see it go under.

 

Anyhow, that's my take on pre-WoW MMOs.  Am I forgetting any?  Really, I'd say none of them were as bad as the WoW clones we saw later.  They each had some unique appeal that set them apart, and made them feel new and interesting for a while. They didn't suffer from that immediate "been there, done that" feeling of later MMOs that all followed a much more rigid formula.

When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3854

RIP City of Heroes!

3/06/13 8:31:23 PM#12
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Before WoW, there were far less people that expected every MMO to be made specifically for them. More importantly, there were less expectation of what an MMO "should be" so there was more acceptance of different types.

It's not that there are more or less 'crappy' MMOs before or after WoW.

 

 

So you believe if more people would lower their expectation of what a MMO should deliver, than there would be more huge smashing titles?

 

well what cause this rise in expectation? I havnt seen much to give me a reason to see a rise in expectation .whats the cause?

 As to expectations, it was more like you had to work more to get something done then wow came along and made it easier and quicker.  That changed expectations.   Imagine you got paid $20.00 per hour, then your boss gave you $100.00.  How would you feel about going back to $20.00 per hour.

The player base then became more vocal.  Feeding the beast as they say in hollywood.  You cave into demands and they want more.  Human nature.   Now people don't want to pay for anything and have large expectations.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/06/13 8:36:53 PM#13
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by MMOExposed

So you believe if more people would lower their expectation of what a MMO should deliver, than there would be more huge smashing titles?

 

well what cause this rise in expectation? I havnt seen much to give me a reason to see a rise in expectation .whats the cause?

 As to expectations, it was more like you had to work more to get something done then wow came along and made it easier and quicker.  That changed expectations.   Imagine you got paid $20.00 per hour, then your boss gave you $100.00.  How would you feel about going back to $20.00 per hour.

The player base then became more vocal.  Feeding the beast as they say in hollywood.  You cave into demands and they want more.  Human nature.   Now people don't want to pay for anything and have large expectations.

 WoW did not do that jesus christ people...

Yes, with Evercrap you had to wait hours on end for a mob to spawn to kill it....that was the ONLY game to do that.

Ultima Online was fast to end game...Asherons Call didnt make you wait for a thing...Anarchy Online? Nope, sorry. Star Wars Galaxy didnt even have LEVELS...

Where is this magical world where World of Warcraft made things easy? If anything, they made things more GRINDY, have to do the same flipping instance 100s of times in hopes to get a gear set...had to PvP for 1000 hours for that rank...and then for that PvP set.

WoW didnt make it easier and quicker. It added MORE grind.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3854

RIP City of Heroes!

3/06/13 8:38:27 PM#14
Originally posted by jtcgs

Nothing has changed outside of there being a larger amount of people playing MMOs. Its the same ratio of people complaining, complaining about complainers and trolls.

Nothing you or anyone else can say will make me forget the uproar near the end of Anarchy Onlines beta and the month following its release...nothing will make me forget the flamwars that spread from the Lore websites onto IGN and others...nothing will wipe away the massive in game protests of DaoC about how bad Mythic was treating Hybernia and how they were ignoring the massive RvR imbalance...nothing will change how during the making of EQ2 and AC2 people were talking about how DaoC runied the genre creating massive amounts of developer handholding that is bleeding into newer games.

WoW was only a byproduct of previous games ideas with a few new ones thrown in.

 It's true that wow copied from many other games.  For me, before wow, City of Heroes character creator was a breath of fresh air.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3854

RIP City of Heroes!

3/06/13 8:40:25 PM#15
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by MMOExposed

So you believe if more people would lower their expectation of what a MMO should deliver, than there would be more huge smashing titles?

 

well what cause this rise in expectation? I havnt seen much to give me a reason to see a rise in expectation .whats the cause?

 As to expectations, it was more like you had to work more to get something done then wow came along and made it easier and quicker.  That changed expectations.   Imagine you got paid $20.00 per hour, then your boss gave you $100.00.  How would you feel about going back to $20.00 per hour.

The player base then became more vocal.  Feeding the beast as they say in hollywood.  You cave into demands and they want more.  Human nature.   Now people don't want to pay for anything and have large expectations.

 WoW did not do that jesus christ people...

Yes, with Evercrap you had to wait hours on end for a mob to spawn to kill it....that was the ONLY game to do that.

Ultima Online was fast to end game...Asherons Call didnt make you wait for a thing...Anarchy Online? Nope, sorry. Star Wars Galaxy didnt even have LEVELS...

Where is this magical world where World of Warcraft made things easy? If anything, they made things more GRINDY, have to do the same flipping instance 100s of times in hopes to get a gear set...had to PvP for 1000 hours for that rank...and then for that PvP set.

WoW didnt make it easier and quicker. It added MORE grind.

 Wow was quicker in leveling.  The term grind perdates wow. Derp.

  Purutzil

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2909

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

3/06/13 8:40:42 PM#16

Back before (and the years follow wow release and after that) there was actually a good deal of games that today would be called crappy (including wow itself) the thing was they were far less numberous and players were far less picky about things. Heck, talk about the original greats like Everquest or DAOC or Ultima Online. Those games were all considered great games yet they had plenty of flaws about them. 

 

Its just we are so spoiled today that the quality we got back then wouldn't fly. SWTOR itself is really not a bad game, far better then say WoW on its launch, however we have such a cynical view on games and we can so quickly switch to other games it was bashed into the ground. Sure, it wasn't a shining gem even if we did take that away, but it actually would of been looked on as a 'good game' if it was released in the past.

 

Its less of how 'crappy' MMos were back then, as much as it is "How low were our standerds and forgiveness back then" cause let me tell you, if wow launched today, I'd be confident it would sit about where Rift stands right now which isn't bad, but its no where near what the power it has now.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

3/06/13 8:55:56 PM#17
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Before WoW, there were far less people that expected every MMO to be made specifically for them. More importantly, there were less expectation of what an MMO "should be" so there was more acceptance of different types.

It's not that there are more or less 'crappy' MMOs before or after WoW.

So you believe if more people would lower their expectation of what a MMO should deliver, than there would be more huge smashing titles?

I never said anything about lowering expectations. It's odd expectations, if anything. Almost every MMO that has deviated from the level-based class-restricted gear-dependent formula has done poorly, and a good part of that is the relentless negative rampages that people go on when an MMO isn't an updated version of EQ or WOW. A great example of that is Chronicles of Spellborn. It wasn't a bad game. It was simply too different. After WOW, any MMO that deviated from that formula was considered niche. Worse, people brough their odd expectations them and left disappointed.

Here's another great example: AION. They said it was open PvP from 30 on up. One of the big selling points was that these rifts would open up and attackers could go through. What did the NA/EU audience expect the gameplay to be like post 30 in a level 1-60 eastern-developed PvP game? Why did they expect anything other than what they got? It's not odd to expect it to be something other than exactly what they said it would be?

There's some odd expectation that a new game will repeat the same gameplay but somehow will magically not have the same issues the previous one did.

On the flip side, when a game deviates too much and actually does try something new, the appeal is far lower.

 

So if it isn't odd expectations, then it's that players just want an updated EQ/WOW experience... which, to me, seems like an odd expectation.

 

 

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/06/13 9:01:40 PM#18
Originally posted by waynejr2

 Wow was quicker in leveling.  The term grind perdates wow. Derp.

 Congrats, you just based a game being good or not on how fast one could level. You could hit max level in Asherons Call without ever even playing via Vassals and oh, BTW, it took 5 days for the first level 50 in DaoC....see, it really was a crap game! Derp.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17601

3/06/13 9:02:04 PM#19
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Before WoW, there were far less people that expected every MMO to be made specifically for them. More importantly, there were less expectation of what an MMO "should be" so there was more acceptance of different types.

It's not that there are more or less 'crappy' MMOs before or after WoW.

 

 

So you believe if more people would lower their expectation of what a MMO should deliver, than there would be more huge smashing titles?

 

well what cause this rise in expectation? I havnt seen much to give me a reason to see a rise in expectation .whats the cause?

No it has nothing to do with lower expectations. Less people had expectations. They just "showed up" the world was what it was and they found thier own fun.

I had a blast one Saturday in Lineage 2 when me and my clan leader, desparate to make money, kept running the same dark elf village quests over and over because we needed to make money.

We never said "oh this sucks". We acknowledged that this was a way we could make money so we did it.

Other people schlepped no grade shots to gludio because there were people in that area who still used them. The "schleppers" then sold them at a small profit and then ran back to the starter areas to buy more.

The didn't complain or have lowered expecatations. they just found ways to make money which was enjoyable.

  koboldfodder

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 370

3/06/13 9:21:47 PM#20

I am trying to remember what MMOs existed before WOW or at least around the same time.  So from Ultima Online on, because while there were online games like Meredian 59 and such they were not big MMOs.

 

Ultima Online was one of the first and one of the best MMOs ever released.  You can still play it.

Everquest was the biggest hit.  When that game came out they used up all the bandwith in the San Diego area.  They had to change a lot of things because of that game.  It was one of the best MMOs ever.  You can still play the game.

 

EVE Online.  I think it came before WOW.  A massive hit still to this day.

Asheron's Call.  This was an excellent game but it was not as big a hit as the other MMOs.  I am pretty sure you can still play this game.

 

Horizons.  This game came out before WOW, there were massive problems with it and it evolved from a couple of different versions.  This was one of the first big flops that you would consider a crappy MMO.  It did have an incredible crafting system though.

 

SWG.  Lots of people were waiting for this MMO and for a few months everything was fine, then people started to leave because there was little to actually do in the game.  It was the first big technical flop.  You could not even play it the first day.  The game had massive bugs that existed until they shut it down.  Most people think SWG was a great game, not so.  It was never a great game but it did have revolutionary game systems.  Too bad they could not get out of their own way.  The combat upgrades and NGE gave this game....well, you know the story.

 

Dark Age of Camelot.  This was a pretty big game.  You could solo a lot better than in EQ, and lots of EQ people were ready to move on to another game.  Another rose colored glasses type of game.  Things worked, and it was ok....but not good enough to put it in the same category as EQ or UO.

Lineage.  This was a huge hit, and I think still is.  A very big Asian MMO.  It was also the first MMO to have that massive Asian grindy thing going on....plus boobs, oh lots of boobs.

Lineage II.  I think this was another big game, this one might be the one with the boobs and stuff.

Anarchy Online.  This was from funcom and was actually a decent MMO.  I think you can still play it.  Some things worked, some things did not but it was kind of unique at the time.  I would not call this game a flop, but I would not call it a huge hit either.

 

Final Fantasy XI.  Big time, massive hit especially over seas.

City of Heroes.  Huge hit and a suprising hit.  This game was always a pretty good game.  I think they shut it down this year.

Everquest II.  This game was SOEs "almost" second huge flop.  They had to turn things around real fast in this game.  This was the first game where people whined about it being too difficult.  It was a lot more like EQ1 when it first came out.  Now you cannot really tell the difference between this game and WOW.   This was the game that you can draw a line at and say from this point on things started to change.

 

There were a few other minor games like Runescape (which I think was actually a big hit) and Ragnarok Online...

 

So before WOW, most of the games were hits.  There was not a lot to choose from, so that helped a bit.  The big flop fests were Asheron's Call 2, SWG Horizons and EQ2 until they changed it.

 

 

 

 

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