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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How do you quantify PVP skill?

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86 posts found
  HabitualFrogStomp

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 229

 
OP  3/04/13 9:31:39 PM#21
Originally posted by whisperwynd

 It's a good premise, as pvp is competition of a different sort than your football comparison yet still number those who wish to squash the opposition. Otherwise, why be in it in the first place?

You probably won't see many peaceful pacifists engage in pvp type games, but as human nature being what it is, they most likely number in the minority. lol

 I believe that for those 'assholes' to be great, they do have to have those criteria you wished to 'set aside' like knowledge of the mechanics, game abilities etc or maybe the ways with which they can exploit them, because it's in that drive to know as much as they can to then use any and all advantages possible. 

Thats true, for the most part. The reason I set that aside is, the "Any given Sunday" thing. The most skilled player or team does not always win. If the will exists (and generally lets face it, in human nature throughout all history, this has been based on hatred and anger, that feel good movtivation stuff only works in hollywood or in extreme cases like you see a sports player have an amazing performance and dedicate to a relative or friend who recently died.) Other than that, normally these types of scenarios are based on some measure of disrespect payed, either real or percieved, or a compelling need to prove something which gets the person upset. Anything can happen in a fight I suppose, and when you're dealing with someone with those emotions, you gonna be in a fight, game or not.

  Homitu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2044

3/04/13 9:32:10 PM#22
browser freeze = double post
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/04/13 9:33:25 PM#23
Originally posted by rojo6934

im not implying that about Chess. That really takes a person's skill to play it well. In Chess you only move pieces mindlessly if you dont know how to play. Very different than mmos that doesnt require people's skills.

Yes, decision-making and execution. I didnt have those words in mind but i do agree with it on my first post. The mmos we have now dont require any decision making or good execution. They just require good gear and button spam. Even TERA.

Given equal gear and classes, if you don't hit the right skills in the right order you lose in MMORPG PVP.  It requires skill, even if the game depth isn't as deep as Chess.

And that's without calling up some of the other non-skill-choice decisions required to do well in PVP.

MMORPG PVP is lousy because it's diluted by non-skill factors, but let's not pretend that dilution is the same as not requiring skill.  MMORPG PVP clearly requires skill, it just requires less than a pure skill-focused game.

  HabitualFrogStomp

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 229

 
OP  3/04/13 9:50:29 PM#24
Originally posted by Homitu
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp
Originally posted by Homitu
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp
Originally posted by Homitu

Hey mate, Im not defensive at all, I just like using a bit more colorful language to keep things interesting. I do enjoy the media a great deal, but I dont put great stock in it. This is based on simple observation, and most importantly of all what their peirs think. (MJ was fairly recently dissed by of all people, Scotti Pippen...and likewise Brady is respected, but still equally despised by his peers. Aaron Rodgers is just as great a quarterback, do you see Terrell Suggs calling him out?)

You will see nothing but respect for Jordan in most circles, however. But the guy clowns HIMSELF every opportunity he gets with his bitter sounding quips. Same for Jerry Rice. You have MJ arguing by proxy with Lebron and Kobe, who mostly abstain out of respect and leave the slights to Jordan. With Jerry and Randy Moss you have an ongoing back and forth that seems to come up every time Moss catches a TD pass, which isnt often these days. You're absolutely right, there is no denying their greatness, and more importantly, nobody is. Yet they come out of the woodwork and do themselves a diservice by engaging in this trash talk. This isnt the medias take on things, its direct quotes. Did you see MJ's acceptance speach at the HOF? You would think the guy still wants to play the whole room 1vs1 and dunk on them, even the children. Insecurity abound. And this is what made him great. His motivation was he believed his Dad loved his brother more than he loved him, thats why he originally became the star he did at a young age. Man, this stuff IS well documented, everything Ive said here is the way it is, as they told it. It has pretty much nothing to do with media coverage.

Other players from the 70's are still talking about the entire Steelers teams. The Cowboys from the 90's or Niners from the 80's arent still being talked about with such animosity. Again, I dont care what you or anyone else thinks, unless they were on the feild, then I listen to what they have to say.

Its simply a numbers game, Ive provided many outstanding examples, you've provided many mediocre examples. Thats the way I see it. I back up my statements with intimate knowledge because I actually keep up with this stuff because I enjoy it. Saying Peyton Maning is a great player who's not an asshole is not news, I said as much. But he does not have the same competitive streak in him that Brady has. Which is why Brady has more rings. Championships are the defining article when talking about the greatness of a player, thats just the way it is. Had Lebron never gotten his ring, it would have entirely dimished everything he's ever done on the court, most would accept that. He was known as the player who can not play in a championship setting. It matters, a lot.  

  treysmooth

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/06
Posts: 642

3/04/13 10:06:30 PM#25
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp
Originally posted by Homitu

snip

 Well Im originally from Indianapolis and Peyton Manning is one of my favorite players of all-time. And you know I actually had his name typed there, and I thought better of my homerism and deleted it. But Im glad you brought him up. Peyton Manning is a super nice guy, he's won a Super Bowl, I cried myself when he cried during his press conference when he left the Colts., and I love everything he's done for my city, not least of which making it football town and building us a stadium pretty much by himself.

 

But the guy spent the better part of his career getting out performed by Brady (huge asshole) Also the only year he won a Super Bowl our defense had a record breaking run of 4 playoff games. We had the worst run defense in the league that year but they actually destroyed every body in the playoffs. Still, had the Chicago Bears QB not been Rex Grossman (another Indiana native, god bless him and his small hands) they would've won that Super Bowl. Rex fumbled I dont know how many snaps in the rain in Florida, but I digress. We did not win that Super Bowl because Peyon Manning was such a great competitior or champion. In fact, Im a little more than slightly inclined to believe the words of Mike Vanderjagt and put a little stock in the possibility Peyton wasnt so sure he could beat New England in the snow in Foxborough, and he didnt. 

As for Kurt Warner, the guys lost more Super Bowls than he won, he had TGSOT, one of the best supporting casts of the salary cap era backing him. Guys a great player no doubt, but he didnt get it done against Brady either. Why you bring Fitz into this, I dont really know, he doesnt have any rings and he's a WR, not exactly relevent either way. I'd say comparing Jerry Rice to Fitz makes more sense. Jerry Rice is still talking shit and he hasnt played a down in 10 years. Huge asshole.

If anything, you just provided me with a soap box to give more examples, you didnt exactly disprove the theory. (though Im sure there are notably exceptions, there always are.)

And instanced PVP and ladders dont count for anything. These are "workout warriors" if you will. The only true measure of competiveness is open world PVP. Everything else is a tourist attraction.

First the reason New England in part won those titles is Belichek was cheating.  This isn't me being a bitter Colts fan this is fact.  He was caught cheating and still noone says shit.  Manning did more with less in Indianapolis  than any QB in the league during his run in Indy.

Numbers wise Manning is a Winner regardless of what he had around him he always won.  Its not like we limped into the playoffs either 14 and 15 win seasons were in the mix on a regular basis.

Second Brady takes heat but give me examples of him being this "dick" you envision.  I'm  Michigan Football fan and honestly Brady was a quiet humble guy during his time at Michigan U.

To say that Kurt Warner lost more than he won in the super bowl, who cares?  Dan Marino is one of the greatest ever and he never won a title.  John Elway went through most of his career before finally winning titles in his twilight.

The truth?  the "dick" atheletes stick out like a sore thumb thus get attention.  Another example of  a up and coming star that is pure class, Paul George as you watch him carry the Pacers into the East finals maybe you will see my point.  He may not get massive coverage but the guy wins and he is a great guy.

  HabitualFrogStomp

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 229

 
OP  3/04/13 10:33:33 PM#26
Originally posted by treysmooth
 

Im a Colts fan, but to try to imply Peyton Manning did more with less on his offense than Tom Brady is just dishonest. Peyton had the luxury of playing with more 1st round draft pick skill postion players than anyone, maybe any quarterback ever. Marvin Harison two years before he got there, his franchise left tackle Tarik Glen the year before, following year Edgerin James. Also Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clarke, Joseph Addai, Anthony Gonzolez, all in his tenure. Gonzalez was a bust but still attempt to surround Peyton with as much first round skill player talent as possible. The rest of these players were not only pro bowlers, all pros, but a couple of potential hall of famers mixed in there.

All the while Tom Brady was winning Super Bowl championships with Deion Branch and a 37 year old Troy Brown.

Please...

Manning had far the superior offense. It wasnt until they went to a power run strategy to help their ailing defense which was playing Cover 2, built to play with the lead and rush the passer, that they found post-season success. Manning is top 5 all time, but that just sounds like homerism. Especially spygate, really? haha.

I'll tell you what Spygate was, some idiot was stupid enough to be standing on the Jets sideline recording signals. Other teams did the exact same thing at the time from the press box. The Kansas City Chiefs front office (who havent been very good for a long while) admitted to doing this exact thing at the same time, didnt help them win many championships.

As for great quarterbacks who havent won a Super Bowl. Marino never had a running game, Elways won his when he got a great running game from Terrell Davis, not to mention a pretty stout defense. I would've already given these two credit without winning a championship because they actually went to Super Bowls (Elway a couple) without having a supporting cast to speak of. Unless you wanna claim Duper and Clayton for Marino, they were both good WR, but they had no defense either. Kurt Warner had one of the greatest teams ever assembled which lost to a second year quarterback who was forced into a starting role due to injury to Drew Bledsoe, his name was Tom Brady. The previous two are hall of famers, Kurt Warner likely is not.

  HabitualFrogStomp

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 229

 
OP  3/04/13 10:56:26 PM#27

And to further the point, the Colts making the playoffs 14 out of 15 years (as you mentioned, often as first seed or first round bye at least) just proves my point. This kind of sustained success just would not feasibly end up in 1 super bowl victory in 2 appearences unless something was wrong. Something else was going on there in the playoffs. Nobody is doubting Peytons regular season success.

As for Brady being humble at Michigan, haha no sh*t. He was dead last on the depth chart on a team that carried around 8 quarterbacks at the time. I think thats more than enough to instill a little humility in anyone.

Ive already mentioned a few reasons why I think Bradys a dick. He talked trash to Sherman in the Seahawks game about "see me after the game when we win" and got a "U MAD BRO" for his trouble. He also went to Isiah Thomas school of leaving the field post-haste (should read early) when on the losing end. He's just not the best sportsman there ever was. And regardless of the golden boy image he portrays in the media very well, he still has a slip up every now and then. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lk-wWUQKBg

  phumbaba

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 91

3/05/13 12:56:55 AM#28

Yes, you are right that competitiveness eventually involves a certain level of sociopathy, psychopathy and/or hatred. The certain feeling of I'm the best and I hate my opponent and I hate to lose and I don't care at all what happens to to any1 else especially my opponent. I believe this is true to all competition completely regardless of game or situation in rl. This doesn't mean that non-competitive, momentarily or not, people do not win, but in the long run, being able to maintain the trait will give a certain edge in many forms of activities involving competition. Did I miss something? With all the talk about football...:)

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

3/05/13 1:40:17 AM#29
Originally posted by phumbaba

Yes, you are right that competitiveness eventually involves a certain level of sociopathy, psychopathy and/or hatred. The certain feeling of I'm the best and I hate my opponent and I hate to lose and I don't care at all what happens to to any1 else especially my opponent. I believe this is true to all competition completely regardless of game or situation in rl.

Maybe I'm part of a dying breed, but sportsmanship and respect for one's opponent, be it in sport or other competitions, seems to have gone the way of the dodo with the current generation. Your post is a shining example of that.

If you get a chance, watch the movie Master and Commander. You might find it an interesting view of competition.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  phumbaba

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 91

3/05/13 2:09:52 AM#30
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by phumbaba

Yes, you are right that competitiveness eventually involves a certain level of sociopathy, psychopathy and/or hatred. The certain feeling of I'm the best and I hate my opponent and I hate to lose and I don't care at all what happens to to any1 else especially my opponent. I believe this is true to all competition completely regardless of game or situation in rl.

Maybe I'm part of a dying breed, but sportsmanship and respect for one's opponent, be it in sport or other competitions, seems to have gone the way of the dodo with the current generation. Your post is a shining example of that.

If you get a chance, watch the movie Master and Commander. You might find it an interesting view of competition.

Oh, I know chivalry and sportsmanship quite well and I'm sorry if I worded myself as somehow advocating competitiveness, but in the end it's a very different matter. I happen to dislike competitions and am not a very competitive person overall myself. I used to play soccer and we were taught quite a lot about true sportsmanship and to respect the game and the opponent. However, I insist that has next to nothing to do with competitiveness which in it's rawest form boils down to desire to win regardless of anything else. What it can be percieved to cause in a person is what OP describes as being an "asshole".

If I had to decide what to teach people, it would of course be sportsmanship and chivalry, but in a discussion like a percieve this thread to be...:D Oh well.. you got me a bit defensive, but I do believe sportsmanship and chivalry are about values and competitiveness is about desire, but naturally that's just my opinion:)

  Faynth

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/11/06
Posts: 240

3/05/13 2:18:11 AM#31
Originally posted by uidCaustic

1 - Get off the computer.

2 - Join a branch of your countries military.

3 - Survive combat with a confirmed kill.

Until then, you're playing a video game, and no-one of importance cares about your "1v1 rankings omg!!!11oneone", nor does anyone of importance find you "skillful".

Is it this kind of thinking that relates school massacres to computer games?

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5620

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/05/13 4:57:14 AM#32
Originally posted by phumbaba
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by phumbaba

Yes, you are right that competitiveness eventually involves a certain level of sociopathy, psychopathy and/or hatred. The certain feeling of I'm the best and I hate my opponent and I hate to lose and I don't care at all what happens to to any1 else especially my opponent. I believe this is true to all competition completely regardless of game or situation in rl.

Maybe I'm part of a dying breed, but sportsmanship and respect for one's opponent, be it in sport or other competitions, seems to have gone the way of the dodo with the current generation. Your post is a shining example of that.

If you get a chance, watch the movie Master and Commander. You might find it an interesting view of competition.

Oh, I know chivalry and sportsmanship quite well and I'm sorry if I worded myself as somehow advocating competitiveness, but in the end it's a very different matter. I happen to dislike competitions and am not a very competitive person overall myself. I used to play soccer and we were taught quite a lot about true sportsmanship and to respect the game and the opponent. However, I insist that has next to nothing to do with competitiveness which in it's rawest form boils down to desire to win regardless of anything else. What it can be percieved to cause in a person is what OP describes as being an "asshole".

If I had to decide what to teach people, it would of course be sportsmanship and chivalry, but in a discussion like a percieve this thread to be...:D Oh well.. you got me a bit defensive, but I do believe sportsmanship and chivalry are about values and competitiveness is about desire, but naturally that's just my opinion:)

I disagree with everything you wrote. The most important thing about competition is the competition. Winning is entirely secondary: There wouldn't be any competition if everyone didn't try to win. I couldn't care less if I won or not - all that matters is the dramatic struggle and the challenge, so I will try to win with the rest of them.

Any hint that competitiveness has anything to do with hate or any sort of psychological deficiency is complete and utter hogwash. If you can't understand it, do us a favor and don't even try.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5339

3/05/13 5:07:25 AM#33
i don't know about all PVP orientated games, but certainly the ones i have played in, the only really good PVP skill worth having is the one that enables you to work alongside other players as part of a team, i've never really regarded 1 v 1 as even being PVP tbh, its more like a trainer for the real thing, PVP for me means teamwork and strategy
  phumbaba

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 91

3/05/13 6:32:00 AM#34
Originally posted by Quirhid

I disagree with everything you wrote. The most important thing about competition is the competition. Winning is entirely secondary: There wouldn't be any competition if everyone didn't try to win. I couldn't care less if I won or not - all that matters is the dramatic struggle and the challenge, so I will try to win with the rest of them.

Any hint that competitiveness has anything to do with hate or any sort of psychological deficiency is complete and utter hogwash. If you can't understand it, do us a favor and don't even try.

Well, that's an elaborate way of writing shut up:)

Competition is an occurrence. Competitiveness is a trait of a person. As usual in forums, ppl talk of different things, misunderstand, tell each other to shut up and resort to name calling. I expect you to get to that after this.

Yes, OP calls it being an asshole, I listed some less forum-friendly terms and you decided that I called you those things. I would expect you to know not to take things personally, but it seems everyday's a new day here too. I was wrong. Plus internez to ya and have a nice thread^^

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3210

"A very special kind of stupidity"

3/05/13 8:42:49 AM#35
Originally posted by Axehilt

Step 1. Put both combatants into a game about PVP skill.  (By definition this won't be an MMORPG.)

Step 2. Congratulate the victor.

Simple.

All that other garbage is just an extension of the fact that MMORPG PVP is diluted by many non-skill factors.  If you're interested in pure PVP skill, you play a pure PVP game.  Otherwise you just accept the fact that skill is diluted by non-skill factors like playtime and don't take it too seriously because you're not playing a serious PVP game.

Your post reminds of the fable of the debate between the lion, the eagle and the bull about who should be the king of the beasts. The Eagle proposed that that the highest flier should be made king; the Lion suggested that the loadest roar and the sharpest teeth be the deciding factor, whereas the Bull claimed that the greatest strength and largest horns were the mark of the true King.

Likewise, you have proposed a sharply limited definition of PvP skill that just happens to suit the parts of PvP that you're good at or that you enjoy. And MMORPGs don't fit nicely within your preferences, so you try and claim that how high one can fly matters more than strength or horn size is what counts!

There is only one measure of PvP skill: victory over your opponent within the rules. The End.

A great PvPer in one game might well be mediocre at best in another, because the two games have different rules and mechanics. To take an example we're both familiar with, PvP in EVE requires fitting skills, knowledge of flight mechanics and micromanaging skills... and it also allows diplomacy, treachery and deceptive tactics to be employed to win a fight in ways which simply aren't allowed in other games. That doesn't mean that Arena PvP in Wow isn't "true" PvP, and it doesn't mean that I'm not better at PvP than another guy because I allowed him to aggress my lone battleship, and then the other 49 guys in my fleet jumped in and wtfpwned him. The two games have different rules of engagement, and only results within those rules are an incontrovertible measure of "skill".

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  HabitualFrogStomp

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 229

 
OP  3/05/13 8:47:19 AM#36
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by phumbaba
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by phumbaba

Yes, you are right that competitiveness eventually involves a certain level of sociopathy, psychopathy and/or hatred. The certain feeling of I'm the best and I hate my opponent and I hate to lose and I don't care at all what happens to to any1 else especially my opponent. I believe this is true to all competition completely regardless of game or situation in rl.

Maybe I'm part of a dying breed, but sportsmanship and respect for one's opponent, be it in sport or other competitions, seems to have gone the way of the dodo with the current generation. Your post is a shining example of that.

If you get a chance, watch the movie Master and Commander. You might find it an interesting view of competition.

Oh, I know chivalry and sportsmanship quite well and I'm sorry if I worded myself as somehow advocating competitiveness, but in the end it's a very different matter. I happen to dislike competitions and am not a very competitive person overall myself. I used to play soccer and we were taught quite a lot about true sportsmanship and to respect the game and the opponent. However, I insist that has next to nothing to do with competitiveness which in it's rawest form boils down to desire to win regardless of anything else. What it can be percieved to cause in a person is what OP describes as being an "asshole".

If I had to decide what to teach people, it would of course be sportsmanship and chivalry, but in a discussion like a percieve this thread to be...:D Oh well.. you got me a bit defensive, but I do believe sportsmanship and chivalry are about values and competitiveness is about desire, but naturally that's just my opinion:)

I disagree with everything you wrote. The most important thing about competition is the competition. Winning is entirely secondary: There wouldn't be any competition if everyone didn't try to win. I couldn't care less if I won or not - all that matters is the dramatic struggle and the challenge, so I will try to win with the rest of them.

Any hint that competitiveness has anything to do with hate or any sort of psychological deficiency is complete and utter hogwash. If you can't understand it, do us a favor and don't even try.

Its not a "psychological deficiency". I dont think anyone would accuse the people Ive mentioned specifically of being deficient in some way, in fact quite the opposite. And the public view of a winner is never negative, regardless of the way one chooses to win. We only care that they won. And of course, most people regardless of their own personal beliefs on the matter, will try to portray a certain level of class and sportsmanship when competing. It doesnt take that much effort to dictate how the public perceives you, and this is made all the more easier IF you win. Were all too eager to lap it up and dismiss minor outburts as "part of the game" or being "caught up in the moment" as long as you bring home a trophy at the end of the day.

I made the point earlier about how less than 1% of the population hoards 99% of the wealth of the world. Success in business and enterprise is rarely different from success in any competition. The reason these men are able to accomplish what they do is because they are exceptionally gifted at dominating or subjugating others. And they have the will to do so with impunity. And if for some reason they fail at a particular venture, it will nag at them, like a fractured bone that just wont heal. Now the majority of the human race would give out a resounding "ho-hum" if they lost 30 million on a business deal and still had 2 billion to bat with. Its a reasonable and completely natural reaction. But if these men had this apathetic attitude, they wouldnt be where they are in the first place. No matter how much money they make, its not about that, its about what they lost. They just dont accept losing, ever.

The greatest competitors in any sport are no different. And they're more rare than you realize. I named I think 3 in my main post. There are others, these just happen to be the sports Im mainly interested in. If I was talking about baseball I'd be talking about Pete Rose and Ty Cobb. Its easier with the team sports because you have a larger sample size to work with.

Sadly, I think its just lost on most of us what makes these men exceptional. Which is why I trivialized it by calling it the "asshole" trait. You would definitely have to have a lot of experience competing with other people before you would really get it I think.

 

 

 

  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

3/05/13 9:05:09 AM#37

I think a lot of PvP success comes from knowledge of your opponents, allies and yourself.

It's good to know your enemies to know what they can do, what skills they have in their arsenal, and what tricks they have up their sleeve so that you can counter them or bring in an ally that can counter them. If you know what your allies can do, you can cover your deficiencies by teaming up with them. If you know yourself, you know what skills are most useful against certain types of enemies, can support your allies in some situations, and even find a couple tricks up your sleeve.

Essentially, this knowledge is worthless unless you act upon what you know. The same knowledge is useful in PvE as well as PvP.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

3/05/13 9:24:12 AM#38

Players that don't need any significant advantage to mop the floor with the rest of the field.

That's all really.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5620

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/05/13 9:43:45 AM#39
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

I disagree with everything you wrote. The most important thing about competition is the competition. Winning is entirely secondary: There wouldn't be any competition if everyone didn't try to win. I couldn't care less if I won or not - all that matters is the dramatic struggle and the challenge, so I will try to win with the rest of them.

Any hint that competitiveness has anything to do with hate or any sort of psychological deficiency is complete and utter hogwash. If you can't understand it, do us a favor and don't even try.

Its not a "psychological deficiency". I dont think anyone would accuse the people Ive mentioned specifically of being deficient in some way, in fact quite the opposite. And the public view of a winner is never negative, regardless of the way one chooses to win. We only care that they won. And of course, most people regardless of their own personal beliefs on the matter, will try to portray a certain level of class and sportsmanship when competing. It doesnt take that much effort to dictate how the public perceives you, and this is made all the more easier IF you win. Were all too eager to lap it up and dismiss minor outburts as "part of the game" or being "caught up in the moment" as long as you bring home a trophy at the end of the day.

I made the point earlier about how less than 1% of the population hoards 99% of the wealth of the world. Success in business and enterprise is rarely different from success in any competition. The reason these men are able to accomplish what they do is because they are exceptionally gifted at dominating or subjugating others. And they have the will to do so with impunity. And if for some reason they fail at a particular venture, it will nag at them, like a fractured bone that just wont heal. Now the majority of the human race would give out a resounding "ho-hum" if they lost 30 million on a business deal and still had 2 billion to bat with. Its a reasonable and completely natural reaction. But if these men had this apathetic attitude, they wouldnt be where they are in the first place. No matter how much money they make, its not about that, its about what they lost. They just dont accept losing, ever.

The greatest competitors in any sport are no different. And they're more rare than you realize. I named I think 3 in my main post. There are others, these just happen to be the sports Im mainly interested in. If I was talking about baseball I'd be talking about Pete Rose and Ty Cobb. Its easier with the team sports because you have a larger sample size to work with.

Sadly, I think its just lost on most of us what makes these men exceptional. Which is why I trivialized it by calling it the "asshole" trait. You would definitely have to have a lot of experience competing with other people before you would really get it I think.

Its not the same thing. Sure, financially thriving people are aslo very capable. However, a number of research papers report that "the rich" are significantly more selfish than any other person. Business ethics is a joke to some people, and I'm sure I don't have to tell you examples of this.

I attended a number of math and english competitions (second language) in school. I've played soccer and volleyball for years, martial arts for a few years, attended many, many tournaments, played videogames at a world championship level and you're telling me I don't quite "get it"? What the hell, man?!

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/05/13 9:55:07 AM#40
Originally posted by Malcanis

Your post reminds of the fable of the debate between the lion, the eagle and the bull about who should be the king of the beasts. The Eagle proposed that that the highest flier should be made king; the Lion suggested that the loadest roar and the sharpest teeth be the deciding factor, whereas the Bull claimed that the greatest strength and largest horns were the mark of the true King.

Likewise, you have proposed a sharply limited definition of PvP skill that just happens to suit the parts of PvP that you're good at or that you enjoy. And MMORPGs don't fit nicely within your preferences, so you try and claim that how high one can fly matters more than strength or horn size is what counts!

There is only one measure of PvP skill: victory over your opponent within the rules. The End.

A great PvPer in one game might well be mediocre at best in another, because the two games have different rules and mechanics. To take an example we're both familiar with, PvP in EVE requires fitting skills, knowledge of flight mechanics and micromanaging skills... and it also allows diplomacy, treachery and deceptive tactics to be employed to win a fight in ways which simply aren't allowed in other games. That doesn't mean that Arena PvP in Wow isn't "true" PvP, and it doesn't mean that I'm not better at PvP than another guy because I allowed him to aggress my lone battleship, and then the other 49 guys in my fleet jumped in and wtfpwned him. The two games have different rules of engagement, and only results within those rules are an incontrovertible measure of "skill".

My definition of skill isn't sharply limited, it's precisely what skill is:

  • Skill is decision-making and execution.
Pure PVP games like FPSes, RTSes, Fighting games, or MOBAS measure only those elements.
 
Diluted PVP games (MMORPGs) muck up that purity with non-skill elements like playtime or excessively shallow game elements like zerging or class counters.
 
If somebody wants to quantify and compete about PVP skill, they play pure PVP games.  They don't play War (a card game with a purely random victor) and they don't play Progress Quest (an RPG purely about playtime), because these games aren't solely measuring the thing he wants to measure: skill.  For the same reason you wouldn't play EVE or WOW Arenas, because they're still tainted by non-skill factors and not a pure read of skill.
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