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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Seeking Feedback: Mounts vs. Speed Buff Classes

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131 posts found
  Daimonion69

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 29

3/04/13 2:26:34 PM#101

Imho, it should be all or nothing.

If you have mounts, then there needs to be mounted battle. There is only RvR area and battle can happen everywhere, so a restricted mount use would not make much sense.

 

Mounted battle would need:

  • attacks from horses
  • mounts with special attacks
  • mounts with hitpoints
  • mounts that throws down riders and flee, when no HP
  • some disadvantages to fooded combat
  • ...
 
No mounted battle would need:
  • nothing of all above ;)
 
 
 
About the speed classes, i liked the daoc system, with the asymetric speed classes (rouge, priest, warrior).
However, secondary speed class skill (below full speed), are almost useless... almost.
  ice-vortex

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 919

3/04/13 2:30:20 PM#102
A key way you could separate the mounts from the movement speed granted by classes is just make the mounts killable. Also don't have the ability to poof the mount in and out of existance. Just make the mount a resource people could use to transport stuff or ride if they don't have someone with a movement speed buff with them.  If they are with their mounts when they get waylayed on the road, it may not be suprising to see them walking back home after their mount was killed in combat.
  g0m0rrah

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/23/13
Posts: 211

3/04/13 2:47:21 PM#103

 

 And I Say Fuck Buff Bots, Fuck Group Oriented Speed Buffs, and Bring On Specialized Builds...

 I simply do not like the idea of a speed buffing class that exists to buff everyone in the groups move speed so they can actually compete in pvp.  If its a requirement to compete it becomes rather pointless in the sense that if a group doesnt have it, they will not participate. We want more people to participate and not wait to finish a premade of 8, sitting in the safe going typing /world lf1m speed buffer, oh you random (insert class), you can not join because we need a speed buffer.

I prefer the concept of making things viable yet not mandatory.  I would even go so far as to say that with the addition of speed should come some form of drawback.  Speed is the most valuable commodity in PvP because it lets you flee or initiate combat at will.

My suggestion is that we take a small lesson from eve and add interceptor builds which could consist of:

1: tacklerr/damage

2: tackler/tank

3: tacklerr/healer

4: damage/tackler

5: tank/tacker

6: healer/tackler

The idea is that the preceeding title is weighted more than the following title. This way you design your role as an interceptor, I could say I want to be 90% tackler and 10% crowd control, I have gimped myself for solo combat but now I am the epitome of tackler. My damage and tank might be insignificant but I am very good at chasing and disableing a single target for the rest of the group to catch up.

I could have another build that is tackler/damage 60/40 and I am a decent clean up artist. I engage solo targets that are hurt and finish them off then move quicky to others. Maybe I go tackler/tank 60/40 and my goal is to quickly aid allies in combat, soak damage then when that fight is over, move to where I am needed.

Of course these are just ideas for using speed as a mechanic that is used individually instead of as a group modifier. Of course there would be other combos such as mage/tank, tank/mage/ tank/healer, damage/healer, etc. I am just trying to show that massive speed buffs are way over rated and we should be focusing more on the mentallity of how each person in the group can aid the group by being specialized or a jack of all trades.

We need less all encompassing mechanics like buffs and buff bots and more specialized mechanics such as what eve has. The more all encompassing the more generic and weak each specific ability should be. The more specialized the stronger the specific choices are at the cost of versatility. This is an old concept that simply got lost in the players desire to do everything the best...

  Punk999

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/04
Posts: 878

3/04/13 2:50:03 PM#104

Group speed buffs but when entered into combat the buff goes away.

There should be mounts as well with mounted combat to make it more fun.Tho the mounts should have a HP bar and when they die you fall down (a knockdown effect) and cant use your mount again for about 10mins.

"Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
^MMORPG.com

  Hairyzac

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 57

3/04/13 2:50:25 PM#105
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Folks,

   As part of the evolution of both CU and our Kickstarter the issue of mounts has come up a number of times. I want to lay out my current thoughts and then hear what you guys have to say about the issue. As always, let's keep things nice and civil even if you think horses are only good for stew pots. :)

1) I think that CU needs to have support classes that have speed buffs. They were obviously very popular in Dark Age and in other games. I would definitely like to see them implemented in CU and currently, they do have a slot in the launch classes.

2) I also think that mounts are cool if done right. I'd love to have mounted combat in the game but that is not going to happen due to the additional polys that having mounts in a large-scale battles that would have to be rendered. Mounts can however serve an important role.

3) Given the lore of CU, having both mounts and SBC makes a ton of sense and frankly, would just look great.

I understand players' concerns on both sides of the debate but what if we did the following:

1) SBC classes will always be able to cast the fastest speed buffs in the game by a very significant margin. Thus, It will still always be to your advantage to have an SBC in your group.

2) Mounts will not be gold sinks as they have been in other games. Getting a mount will be a badge of honor of course but they will be earned by having success in RvR and not simply attainable for a certain amount of gold.

3) Mounts will also be useful in carrying heavier loads such as pieces of siege equipment.

4) Training mounts *may* also be a crafting skill.

Now I know that everything I want mounts to do we could do by simply adding enough buffs to players but would the above implementation in theorycrafting make sense?

Thanks!

Mark

1.  I do agree there should be SBC classes.  Currently I'm playing swtor and the one class that is able to increase everyones speed every so often is essential when doing ranked war zones.  People usually won't even queue up without a marauder/sentinel for their speed buff.  This also goes hand in hand with wanting each class to have a role.  This further develops the roll of whatever class has a speed buff.

 

2.  I feel mounts definintely have a place in the game but not in RvR.  I enjoy any type of battle the most when mounts aren't even a factor.  Everyone should be walking/running and using their abilities instead of riding mounts in combat.  Having said that, mounts are super cool vanity rewards.  Having a very cool, exclusive mount obtained by a great feat of strength in RvR will be something truly glorious to work towards.  I cannot wait!

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/04/13 3:37:03 PM#106
Originally posted by g0m0rrah

 

 And I Say Fuck Buff Bots, Fuck Group Oriented Speed Buffs, and Bring On Specialized Builds...

 I simply do not like the idea of a speed buffing class that exists to buff everyone in the groups move speed so they can actually compete in pvp.  If its a requirement to compete it becomes rather pointless in the sense that if a group doesnt have it, they will not participate. We want more people to participate and not wait to finish a premade of 8, sitting in the safe going typing /world lf1m speed buffer, oh you random (insert class), you can not join because we need a speed buffer.

I prefer the concept of making things viable yet not mandatory.  I would even go so far as to say that with the addition of speed should come some form of drawback.  Speed is the most valuable commodity in PvP because it lets you flee or initiate combat at will.

My suggestion is that we take a small lesson from eve and add interceptor builds which could consist of:

1: tacklerr/damage

2: tackler/tank

3: tacklerr/healer

4: damage/tackler

5: tank/tacker

6: healer/tackler

The idea is that the preceeding title is weighted more than the following title. This way you design your role as an interceptor, I could say I want to be 90% tackler and 10% crowd control, I have gimped myself for solo combat but now I am the epitome of tackler. My damage and tank might be insignificant but I am very good at chasing and disableing a single target for the rest of the group to catch up.

I could have another build that is tackler/damage 60/40 and I am a decent clean up artist. I engage solo targets that are hurt and finish them off then move quicky to others. Maybe I go tackler/tank 60/40 and my goal is to quickly aid allies in combat, soak damage then when that fight is over, move to where I am needed.

Of course these are just ideas for using speed as a mechanic that is used individually instead of as a group modifier. Of course there would be other combos such as mage/tank, tank/mage/ tank/healer, damage/healer, etc. I am just trying to show that massive speed buffs are way over rated and we should be focusing more on the mentallity of how each person in the group can aid the group by being specialized or a jack of all trades.

We need less all encompassing mechanics like buffs and buff bots and more specialized mechanics such as what eve has. The more all encompassing the more generic and weak each specific ability should be. The more specialized the stronger the specific choices are at the cost of versatility. This is an old concept that simply got lost in the players desire to do everything the best...

No.

 

Sounds like you were bitter you had no friends that played skald/bard/minstrel

Making everything viable not manditory would go a little against some of the foundation principles I think? This game isn't holding hands, so if you want a group with speed, employ someone on that class.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Hairyzac

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 57

3/04/13 3:40:40 PM#107
Yes classes in this game will have roles.  If you can do everything any other class can do, then that totally goes against the concept of roles.
  Storm_Fireblade

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 156

3/04/13 3:43:58 PM#108
I love mounts, I really do. They cater to the collector-gene and give a variety of customizing options. BUT it is still a RvR game and mounts do not improve the smoothness of gameplay. Speedclasses should be a given and if mounts are in the game, well, they shouldn´t be that much slower, if at all.

Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/

  Stiler

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 592

3/04/13 3:55:21 PM#109
Originally posted by Hairyzac
Yes classes in this game will have roles.  If you can do everything any other class can do, then that totally goes against the concept of roles.

There is a difference though between a role that has a part in a group, and a role REQUIRED for a group.

Imaigne your general buffbot, say they have 50%+ dmg buffs, this is a huge advantage in combat and thus people will "need" one, the min/maxers will absolutely have to roll with one and thus leads to buffbots and a general feeling of people not wanting to RVR/fight without it.

 

Classes should be fun first and formost, but not to the point (imo) where it DETRACTS from the other people's experience in terms of that. 

It kind of defeats the point of the "buff" when it gets to the point that people bot for them and others odn't do anything "until" they get that buff, that's more of a harm then a good to me.

 

 

  BadSpock

Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7696

Logic be damned!

3/04/13 3:55:51 PM#110

Speed Buff classes is a pretty horrible idea.

Having speed buffs available from a variety of classes that also have other roles in groups can definitely work, but in the end really just becomes an annoyance.

It's the problem that having something unique and special is cool when you have it, and an absolute deal breaker when you don't.

Yet if you give pieces of that unique/special thing to many different people, it loses all feeling of being special and unique.

Kind of the whole pure vs. hybrid debate, all wrapped up into a new/different tasting candy shell.

The question can only really be answered by first answering another question:

What kind of game do you want to make?

1. If group participation and social interaction is going to be forced - then having one specific class/role the only such role able to provide a particularly powerful buff is well and fine and dandy.

Players are expected to work together and diversify their groups. Kind of the "old school" approach. If you are missing a buff in a group it's because you need to socialize more/better and fill that gap.

2. If solo play and self-reliance - or "playing solo in a group" kind of gaming is what you are going for, you absolutely cannot restrict a powerful buff to a single class/role.

Either way, Mounts are required in any fantasy/medieval game - if you have speed buff classes, they can help compensate if players / groups don't have or can't use mounts - but have to just be a "nice perk" on top of increased speed from mounts.

If you are doing mounts without doing mounted combat, then mounts are just flavor pixels to create immersion. All mounts are is a buff.

Having players be able to provide that buff to their group or enhance that buff SLIGHTLY if people already have the buff is not a bad thing.

The biggest problem you face creating a RvR game is how to prevent zergs chasing each other around a map flipping cans, NOT how fast those zergs chase each other.

Otherwise, the zerg with more speed will always have the edge. Which may be how you want to design things, but unless you figure out how to prevent the zerg can flipping in the first place, does it really matter?

Now Playing:
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  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/04/13 4:06:31 PM#111
Originally posted by BadSpock

Speed Buff classes is a pretty horrible idea.

Having speed buffs available from a variety of classes that also have other roles in groups can definitely work, but in the end really just becomes an annoyance.

It's the problem that having something unique and special is cool when you have it, and an absolute deal breaker when you don't.

Yet if you give pieces of that unique/special thing to many different people, it loses all feeling of being special and unique.

Kind of the whole pure vs. hybrid debate, all wrapped up into a new/different tasting candy shell.

The question can only really be answered by first answering another question:

What kind of game do you want to make?

1. If group participation and social interaction is going to be forced - then having one specific class/role the only such role able to provide a particularly powerful buff is well and fine and dandy.

Players are expected to work together and diversify their groups. Kind of the "old school" approach. If you are missing a buff in a group it's because you need to socialize more/better and fill that gap.

2. If solo play and self-reliance - or "playing solo in a group" kind of gaming is what you are going for, you absolutely cannot restrict a powerful buff to a single class/role.

Either way, Mounts are required in any fantasy/medieval game - if you have speed buff classes, they can help compensate if players / groups don't have or can't use mounts - but have to just be a "nice perk" on top of increased speed from mounts.

If you are doing mounts without doing mounted combat, then mounts are just flavor pixels to create immersion. All mounts are is a buff.

Having players be able to provide that buff to their group or enhance that buff SLIGHTLY if people already have the buff is not a bad thing.

The biggest problem you face creating a RvR game is how to prevent zergs chasing each other around a map flipping cans, NOT how fast those zergs chase each other.

Otherwise, the zerg with more speed will always have the edge. Which may be how you want to design things, but unless you figure out how to prevent the zerg can flipping in the first place, does it really matter?

"Either way, Mounts are required in any fantasy/medieval game - if you have speed buff classes, they can help compensate if players / groups don't have or can't use mounts - but have to just be a "nice perk" on top of increased speed from mounts."

 

Should read the founding principles, they arn't holding your hand, if you don't have a speed buff, you are forced to group with someone that does, or solo on your own.  [mod edit]

"The biggest problem you face creating a RvR game is how to prevent zergs chasing each other around a map flipping cans, NOT how fast those zergs chase each other."

This isn't a problem at all lol, I don't even know if i've ever seen this happen in all my many years playing DAOC.  [mod edit]

 

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3728

RIP City of Heroes!

3/04/13 4:21:08 PM#112
Originally posted by dynamicipftw

If there are mounts, IMO they should be realistic. 

There should be a horse breeder (crafter or npc) that also trains them.

You go to him and pay top dollar to buy one.

You use them mainly to transport crafting resources and to travel to far away keeps. (can't mount them if the load is too heavy). 

They can't be "summoned" or disappear to thin air.

If you find yourself in combat with your mount it can be killed or if it is wounded you may have to put it down. (players won't afford having a horse in every battle)

If you stable it at a keep, die and respawn elsewhere you have to go back to that same keep to retrieve it.

If that keep gets taken or if you die in a battle, the horse can be stolen by a player of an enemy faction.

After it dies it can't respawn. You have to pay for another horse (you can reuse the saddle and reins though if you still have them).

Sometimes (randomly) It breaks one of his legs and you have to put it down (you have to do it yourself like a true warrior would)

It may sound ridiculous but it would be super immersive. 

 Great!

  OgreRaper

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

3/04/13 4:26:07 PM#113
Originally posted by g0m0rrah

 

In my humble opinion, the biggest fail of DAOC (besides expansions) was classes focused on buffing.  Buff bots were a plague.  People ran side accounts simply to have a toon buff, hide the toon, then go out and participate in combat. The issues I have are:

1. Buff Bots: there is no fun gained from their existence. People do not like playing them and if they exist they become a requirement if you want a chance to win

 

I dunno. I enjoy buff type classes, as long as they can do more than just buff and go AFK. Obviously the buff system should be designed in a way that buff botting is not even possible.

  Daimonion69

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 29

3/04/13 4:40:26 PM#114

After reading some more agruments, i think that the group speed buffs may not be the best solution.

Making one class mandatory to be competitive should not be the aim.

However, having no speed classes would take away a huge piece of tactic options an depth.... so thats not an option at all.

 

Maybe, it would be an idea, to have only personal speed buffs on some classes, and only some temporary group speed buffs with a rather long cooldown. And as addition there should be some skills that counter speed buffs, maybe even instant and/or long range. (throwing a stick between the legs)

Not having permanent speed, forces you to think carefully about, when you want to use your "boost". On the other hand, you still can have a single class speeder or a grappler to tear single targets out of a speeded escaping group.

  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6505

"I fight so you don't have to."

3/04/13 4:45:58 PM#115
Originally posted by Smorak
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Seitr
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by General_Dru-Zod
Originally posted by Yamota

I personally would much prefer mounts over speed buffs for travelling. Why? Well because the main purpose of a mount is to travel longer distances in shorter time than walking. For me speed buffs does not make much sense in this regard. Did Gandalf throw a speed buff to travel from Rohan to Gondor? No, he used his mount.

Speeds buffs should be short lived buffs to get an extra sprint, in out outside of combat, depending on balancing impact.

Also instant travel portals would make some sense but only for the most powerful support classes and only between certain pre-decided points. I personally loved the utility of WIzards in EQ 1 where they could summon portals to the different planes. Made classes unique.

You are in the wrong room...

This is the discussion thread for Camelot Unchained.

Camelot Unchained cannot have wizard classes? Or mounts? Don't see how that belongs in another "room".

Wizards and limited mounts yes......summoned instant travel portals no

Why? Lore-wise I dont see how that would not fit. And Camelot did have that knight type class right? Knights without horses? Yeah that makes sense...

So horses make knights?  Wow.  Why don't you just stop right there before you really start to embarrass yourself.

Knights are made by the crown see Sir Elton John

Excerpt from Wikipedia:

"... The specific military sense of a knight being a mounted warrior in the heavy cavalryemerges only in the Hundred Years' War. The verb "to knight" (i.e. to make someone a knight) appears around 1300, and from the same time, the word "knighthood" shifted from "adolescence" to "rank or dignity of a knight".

In this respect English differs from most other European languages, where the equivalent word emphasizes the status and prosperity of war horse ownership. Linguistically, the association of horse ownership with social status extends back at least as far as ancient Greece, where many aristocratic names incorporated the Greek word for horse, like Hipparchus and Xanthippe; the character Pheidippides in AristophanesClouds has his grandfather's name with hipp- inserted to sound more aristocratic.[citation needed] Similarly, the Greek ?ππε?ς (hippeus) is commonly translated "knight"; at least in its sense of the highest of the four Athenian social classes, those who could afford to maintain a warhorse in the state service."

"... Knighthood as known in Europe was characterized by the combination of two elements, feudalism and service as a mounted warrior."

So I think it is you who should stop before your lack of knowledge in history embarrass yourself.

As I see it, you cant have knights but not (horse) mounts and its a shame that no MMO can do mounted combat properly. A mounted warrior is far more superior than, most, infantry on foot.

  Seitr

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/13
Posts: 50

3/04/13 4:48:13 PM#116
Originally posted by Daimonion69

After reading some more agruments, i think that the group speed buffs may not be the best solution.

Making one class mandatory to be competitive should not be the aim.

That it the point of a class based system IMO. You could say the same about healers.

 

However, having no speed classes would take away a huge piece of tactic options an depth.... so thats not an option at all.

 

Maybe, it would be an idea, to have only personal speed buffs on some classes, and only some temporary group speed buffs with a rather long cooldown. And as addition there should be some skills that counter speed buffs, maybe even instant and/or long range. (throwing a stick between the legs)

Not having permanent speed, forces you to think carefully about, when you want to use your "boost". On the other hand, you still can have a single class speeder or a grappler to tear single targets out of a speeded escaping group.

I think DAoC nailed it with speed classes. Speed was permanent until you entered combat or were attacked.

  carthac

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 16

3/04/13 4:48:26 PM#117

I played a skald on Nimue back in the day.  This class has been my favorite and what I search each game for.  Me and 2 friends would roll around Emain Macha and outside Druim Ligen in the early morning having a blast.  Skald was awesome because they could do good damage but they also brought utility.  I love any speed classes and i think mounts took some of the magic away from online games for me.  rolling around emain macha at prime time with skald speed and aug shaman end buff was so much fun.  A torpedo of mids could devastate an unaware group of hibs or albs.

people may complain its hard to backstab a speed based class but if you were good you knew where to stand to get your PA off when they ran through you.

Mark I beg you to bring back classes like skald and leave mounts at a lower speed if you really want them.  The speed the gods would boon my skald with has to be faster then some weak horse bred in a warmer climate.

  Daimonion69

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 29

3/04/13 4:58:38 PM#118
Originally posted by Seitr
Originally posted by Daimonion69

After reading some more agruments, i think that the group speed buffs may not be the best solution.

Making one class mandatory to be competitive should not be the aim.

That it the point of a class based system IMO. You could say the same about healers.

 

However, having no speed classes would take away a huge piece of tactic options an depth.... so thats not an option at all.

 

Maybe, it would be an idea, to have only personal speed buffs on some classes, and only some temporary group speed buffs with a rather long cooldown. And as addition there should be some skills that counter speed buffs, maybe even instant and/or long range. (throwing a stick between the legs)

Not having permanent speed, forces you to think carefully about, when you want to use your "boost". On the other hand, you still can have a single class speeder or a grappler to tear single targets out of a speeded escaping group.

I think DAoC nailed it with speed classes. Speed was permanent until you entered combat or were attacked.

I am not against the speed class concept. But maybe its not the optimum.

By removing the permanent speed bonus (out of combat), the speeder classes will be less mandatory, however, they still will stay "best practice".

And the healer argument is only partial valid, because i am sure, that there will be more than one healer class. That would not make the healer mandatory.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/04/13 8:17:41 PM#119
Did someone just link a wiki page about knights riding horses? Wth does that have to do with anything
Back when there were knights, and even if they rode horses... Last I checked they didn't have compatriots that shot fireballs at people or anything
This isn't real life, some things that happened irl don't make sense in a video game
Ugh gah

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  ice-vortex

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 919

3/05/13 3:37:30 AM#120
Originally posted by Daimonion69
Originally posted by Seitr
Originally posted by Daimonion69

After reading some more agruments, i think that the group speed buffs may not be the best solution.

Making one class mandatory to be competitive should not be the aim.

That it the point of a class based system IMO. You could say the same about healers.

 

However, having no speed classes would take away a huge piece of tactic options an depth.... so thats not an option at all.

 

Maybe, it would be an idea, to have only personal speed buffs on some classes, and only some temporary group speed buffs with a rather long cooldown. And as addition there should be some skills that counter speed buffs, maybe even instant and/or long range. (throwing a stick between the legs)

Not having permanent speed, forces you to think carefully about, when you want to use your "boost". On the other hand, you still can have a single class speeder or a grappler to tear single targets out of a speeded escaping group.

I think DAoC nailed it with speed classes. Speed was permanent until you entered combat or were attacked.

I am not against the speed class concept. But maybe its not the optimum.

By removing the permanent speed bonus (out of combat), the speeder classes will be less mandatory, however, they still will stay "best practice".

And the healer argument is only partial valid, because i am sure, that there will be more than one healer class. That would not make the healer mandatory.

And why can't there be more than one class with movement speed buffs?

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