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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Disappointed engineer.

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49 posts found
  User Deleted
3/04/13 7:43:35 AM#21
Originally posted by woeye

Yeah, the PvE class balance in GW2 leaves a LOT to be desired. In many cases it feels like WoW 1.0. Which is even more worse. Because you have to ask yourself: with a game like WoW out for many nears now, several problems should be known well by this time. Did the developer team of GW2 ever played any other MMO at all? I mean, many of GW2's problem at not new. Not at all. Yet ANet makes the same mistakes, again:

  • The concept of hybrids rarely works because players tend to favor min/max builds. Hybrid classes in WoW suffered many years because of this (hybrid tax)
  • Pets and AoE in dungeons. This was a big issue for hunters for quite some time and hunters focused on non-pet builds (MM, SV). Yet, in GW2 you cannot do this.
  • Dots and cap. WoW had this problem, too ...
  • High health pool, high armor and super high DPS vs ranged classes. Again, WoW had those issues, too. Blizzard solved it by designing different encounters. Because if you factor in "uptime" you can keep melee DPS in control. 
And so on ...

Min/maxing in GW2 often means going "hybrid". Fully min/max is very very very rarely viable (unless you have somewhat static group and plan out all 5 builds and some of those builds will certanly be "hybrid").

Ranger problems are bad, but i doubt they arent working on a fixing them.

Every class has power builds available. You are certanly not locked into condi build. You can even make different condi build that uses different conditions (chillomancer for instance etc..)

Just because stacking those build works in 1 path in 1 dungeon doesnt make it "super". Funny thing is when those people go out of that 1 path they get instagibbed and face dirt in >5 seconds. When that path is revamped...

  Teh_Axi

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

3/04/13 8:12:30 AM#22

10/10

The bit about the motorbikes is whats makes this post great.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2564

3/04/13 8:21:52 AM#23
Originally posted by itgrowls

I've had my share of disappointments when it comes to devs doing weird things post launch but never like I've seen in this game.

I've posted on multiple reasons why before, the shoddy economy, the lack of DE metas, the lack of concern the devs have for squashing bugs in the three weakest and subsequently least played classes, the list goes on.

But one of the things that bugs me was the lack of roleplay, it showed in the personal stories big time. Engineers weren't just engineers because they were given things to use that magically reformed and were useable again after a timer. They were given special knowledge and the nack to fix things and put things together. Apparently no one there at Anet thought about this while writing or developing the game and it shows. Throughout the personal story one runs into problems that could have easily been fixed by the engineer. Even in WvW engineers aren't allowed to repair anything even siege equipment.

The design of this class defies physics and that's the final straw for me. Weapons that are slow and sluggish on land work as intended and often even faster then physics will allow underwater. That was the final straw for me. The idea that they couldn't get the basic rules of behavior right for combat for this class just baffles the imagination. And I've heard the logical fallacy argument before that it's a fantasy game, well that doesn't excuse how most abilities on this class deal with explosions and heat but somehow doesn't catch anything on fire, you have to trait into that for it to work and then burning only lasts a few seconds, bleeds are the same way, as if bullets and shrapnel wouldn't already cause bleeding in the first place.

And then there was the whole mounts thing. I thought about it and originally I was against mounts but as I look back I realize just how wrong I was about that. There are plenty of RL gadgets to get around faster, even those that are based on steam power are in the museums, so why can't the abilities of the engineer reflect that knowledge properly, why isn't someone on the Anet team making a case about this, why did they drop the ball on engineers being as uneducated as the begger on the corner?

As a last minute Adventurer class When running everywhere one shouldn't have to equip and unequip a kit to run faster while others of the same type of class get a permanent out of combat speed boost. That's right, engineers were suddenly changed to an adventurer class last minute before launch instead of a Heavy Armor wearing class like how other games portrayed this type of personna. And because of this this class has been broken, it cannot fulfill one of the new Arenanet trinity types, DPS, doesn't get a faster run speed, and all of it's traits are for support/CC. It's been like this since launch, you play any other class and there's a symmetry, a sense of balance that makes the class feel right even with the bugs that necros and rangers contend with they have that symmetry, not the engineers. It's pure chaos.

I found another title that looks more promising then this one because they seem to understand what this knowledge brings as far as benefits. I'll be watching it closely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ynmn3DjIDqA#t=117s

What I don't understand is why is this the only other game in existence (other then World of Warcraft to my knowledge) that has motorcycles as mounts, when there are plenty of other titles out there that have steamtek in their lore. Why is it that an Indy game can get this personna so right, this knowledge right when a AAA title can't even get the weapons to work like the laws of physics demand.

It is easy - there are no MOUNTS IN TYRIA LORE - what don't people understand about that? As far as steampunk, only the Charr are that the rest are not.

 

This is a game? You want laws of physics? Do you know how hard that is to program in?

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1884

3/04/13 8:31:15 AM#24
Edit: Meh, these types of threads really aren't worth it.  There also needs to be a "delete your own reply" type function.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2889

There... are... four... lights!

3/04/13 9:04:17 AM#25
Originally posted by rodingo
Edit: Meh, these types of threads really aren't worth it.  There also needs to be a "delete your own reply" type function.

Specially not when the OP is an "usual suspect".

It's not the engineer class he doesn't like, it's the whole game, and his agenda is to bash it at every opportunity, often using misinformation and lies and also insulting the actual players who enjoy the game (apparently we all have "stockholm syndrom").

Read the post history... it's instructive.

And now his new non-argument is that in a fantasy video game, some things defy our laws of physics. In a game where characters run around casting fireballs out of their hands or instantly teleport from one place to another either just clicking on a map or using what looks like a Stargate.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  User Deleted
 
OP  3/04/13 12:06:09 PM#26
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by woeye

Yeah, the PvE class balance in GW2 leaves a LOT to be desired. In many cases it feels like WoW 1.0. Which is even more worse. Because you have to ask yourself: with a game like WoW out for many nears now, several problems should be known well by this time. Did the developer team of GW2 ever played any other MMO at all? I mean, many of GW2's problem at not new. Not at all. Yet ANet makes the same mistakes, again:

  • The concept of hybrids rarely works because players tend to favor min/max builds. Hybrid classes in WoW suffered many years because of this (hybrid tax)
  • Pets and AoE in dungeons. This was a big issue for hunters for quite some time and hunters focused on non-pet builds (MM, SV). Yet, in GW2 you cannot do this.
  • Dots and cap. WoW had this problem, too ...
  • High health pool, high armor and super high DPS vs ranged classes. Again, WoW had those issues, too. Blizzard solved it by designing different encounters. Because if you factor in "uptime" you can keep melee DPS in control. 
And so on ...

Min/maxing in GW2 often means going "hybrid". Fully min/max is very very very rarely viable (unless you have somewhat static group and plan out all 5 builds and some of those builds will certanly be "hybrid").

Ranger problems are bad, but i doubt they arent working on a fixing them.

Every class has power builds available. You are certanly not locked into condi build. You can even make different condi build that uses different conditions (chillomancer for instance etc..)

Just because stacking those build works in 1 path in 1 dungeon doesnt make it "super". Funny thing is when those people go out of that 1 path they get instagibbed and face dirt in >5 seconds. When that path is revamped...

you've obviously never played an engineer. Engineers are locked into using Condi damage no matter what you do, it's the only one that will work for engis as burst damage is a joke. And even with condi damage builds you still must contend with your damage being completely nerfed compared to the damage of other classes. For example, My level 43 trap ranger does way more condi damage and can three shot enemies in a level 40 zone, whereas my full exotic condi engineer specced into every piece that increases condi damage 30/30/0/0/10 does way less damage because it's traits are missing the foundations that an adventurer class needs to do such damage. Even the bleeds on my full exotic zerger thief are about 30 points higher per tick then the bleeds on the same engineer. There's definitely alot wrong going on here, and ignoring the problem and saying it doesn't exist won't help the engineer players one bit.

  User Deleted
 
OP  3/04/13 12:09:22 PM#27
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by rodingo
Edit: Meh, these types of threads really aren't worth it.  There also needs to be a "delete your own reply" type function.

Specially not when the OP is an "usual suspect".

It's not the engineer class he doesn't like, it's the whole game, and his agenda is to bash it at every opportunity, often using misinformation and lies and also insulting the actual players who enjoy the game (apparently we all have "stockholm syndrom").

Read the post history... it's instructive.

And now his new non-argument is that in a fantasy video game, some things defy our laws of physics. In a game where characters run around casting fireballs out of their hands or instantly teleport from one place to another either just clicking on a map or using what looks like a Stargate.

If they read you're history they will see my point about the syndrome. It's not the game I don't like so much as the poor management that has taken over the patching of this game. It had great potential in the beginning but they let things like Dungeoneer/Raiders demands dictate how they should proceed and they also failed to learn anything from mmo history regarding what works and what doesn't work. It's obvious none of them are gamers or they wouldn't have used things like DR in their game, at least one of them would have remembered how that destroyed many a title in the past. Guess large sums of money really does go to their heads. 

Also, if you read far enough back you can see how I too was once ensnared by the Stockholm Syndrome but eventually was freed from it. Now I'm free to determine what really is wrong with a title without those rose tinted glasses.

  User Deleted
 
OP  3/04/13 12:10:59 PM#28
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by itgrowls

snip

It is easy - there are no MOUNTS IN TYRIA LORE - what don't people understand about that? As far as steampunk, only the Charr are that the rest are not.

 

This is a game? You want laws of physics? Do you know how hard that is to program in?

That explains every single image they've come out with where there's someone riding something somewhere and all of the steamtek equipment they have hanging up on chains in the Black Citadel or being defended in Orr that the Charr road in there.

  User Deleted
 
OP  3/04/13 12:17:04 PM#29
Originally posted by woeye

Yeah, the PvE class balance in GW2 leaves a LOT to be desired. In many cases it feels like WoW 1.0. Which is even more worse. Because you have to ask yourself: with a game like WoW out for many nears now, several problems should be known well by this time. Did the developer team of GW2 ever played any other MMO at all? I mean, many of GW2's problem at not new. Not at all. Yet ANet makes the same mistakes, again:

  • The concept of hybrids rarely works because players tend to favor min/max builds. Hybrid classes in WoW suffered many years because of this (hybrid tax)
  • Pets and AoE in dungeons. This was a big issue for hunters for quite some time and hunters focused on non-pet builds (MM, SV). Yet, in GW2 you cannot do this.
  • Dots and cap. WoW had this problem, too ...
  • High health pool, high armor and super high DPS vs ranged classes. Again, WoW had those issues, too. Blizzard solved it by designing different encounters. Because if you factor in "uptime" you can keep melee DPS in control. 
And so on ...

That's what gets me is they didn't learn a thing from mmo history. It's like no one hired someone there to look into the past over the history of gaming in these companies (many of which still have their forums open and archived btw) to learn what one shouldn't do.

Like DR, or not using a PTR, or not separating PVE and PVP skill behaviors so that this game didn't become WoW Cataclysm forcing people to respec every single time there's a patch. Did you know that EVERY patch has had a nerf for engineers, the weakest class in the game gets nerfed every single patch. Imagine the frustration. I think it's down to 2 builds that are viable now and neither one of them use kits or turrets.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

3/04/13 12:34:46 PM#30
Originally posted by itgrowls
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by itgrowls

snip

It is easy - there are no MOUNTS IN TYRIA LORE - what don't people understand about that? As far as steampunk, only the Charr are that the rest are not.

 

This is a game? You want laws of physics? Do you know how hard that is to program in?

That explains every single image they've come out with where there's someone riding something somewhere and all of the steamtek equipment they have hanging up on chains in the Black Citadel or being defended in Orr that the Charr road in there.

Yes... because every piece of original art trying to give an overall feel of something has to be accurately depicted in the game. Mounts aren't a part of Tyrian lore. Pack animals are. Map travel is. Asura gates (and by default way points) are. It is how it is.

 

I can't comment on the engineer... haven't rolled one yet. I'll do that, though. I'm curious now to see just how bad (or maybe misunderstood) they are. With all the characters I have so far, though, it seems there's a direct relationship between how good the profession is and how well you're playing the profession.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Maephisto

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/12
Posts: 653

3/04/13 12:46:58 PM#31

Every time I hear someone complain about no mounts in GW2, I imagine a herd of sheep bleating "mounts."

Laws of Physics? Motorcycles? Really? 

Please rethink the whole "final straw" thing, I enjoy reading your posts too much.

 

  User Deleted
3/05/13 1:44:40 AM#32
Originally posted by itgrowls
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by woeye

Yeah, the PvE class balance in GW2 leaves a LOT to be desired. In many cases it feels like WoW 1.0. Which is even more worse. Because you have to ask yourself: with a game like WoW out for many nears now, several problems should be known well by this time. Did the developer team of GW2 ever played any other MMO at all? I mean, many of GW2's problem at not new. Not at all. Yet ANet makes the same mistakes, again:

  • The concept of hybrids rarely works because players tend to favor min/max builds. Hybrid classes in WoW suffered many years because of this (hybrid tax)
  • Pets and AoE in dungeons. This was a big issue for hunters for quite some time and hunters focused on non-pet builds (MM, SV). Yet, in GW2 you cannot do this.
  • Dots and cap. WoW had this problem, too ...
  • High health pool, high armor and super high DPS vs ranged classes. Again, WoW had those issues, too. Blizzard solved it by designing different encounters. Because if you factor in "uptime" you can keep melee DPS in control. 
And so on ...

Min/maxing in GW2 often means going "hybrid". Fully min/max is very very very rarely viable (unless you have somewhat static group and plan out all 5 builds and some of those builds will certanly be "hybrid").

Ranger problems are bad, but i doubt they arent working on a fixing them.

Every class has power builds available. You are certanly not locked into condi build. You can even make different condi build that uses different conditions (chillomancer for instance etc..)

Just because stacking those build works in 1 path in 1 dungeon doesnt make it "super". Funny thing is when those people go out of that 1 path they get instagibbed and face dirt in >5 seconds. When that path is revamped...

you've obviously never played an engineer. Engineers are locked into using Condi damage no matter what you do, it's the only one that will work for engis as burst damage is a joke. And even with condi damage builds you still must contend with your damage being completely nerfed compared to the damage of other classes. For example, My level 43 trap ranger does way more condi damage and can three shot enemies in a level 40 zone, whereas my full exotic condi engineer specced into every piece that increases condi damage 30/30/0/0/10 does way less damage because it's traits are missing the foundations that an adventurer class needs to do such damage. Even the bleeds on my full exotic zerger thief are about 30 points higher per tick then the bleeds on the same engineer. There's definitely alot wrong going on here, and ignoring the problem and saying it doesn't exist won't help the engineer players one bit.

Right. You might wanna check out how stats work. I never read so uninformed post.

Every class has same condition base damage and same condition damage increase from stats, so please, spare us all until you learn basics of the game.

If you suspect a bug, please, feel free to send a tickect to ANet and see how it goes (just to be clear - theres no such bug)

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16835

3/05/13 1:49:56 AM#33

Yeah, they could have done a lot more with the engineer but the personal story is mainly based on race and choices you make, not class.

But the only fantasy game that motorcycles work in is Discworld. Sure, GW2 is steampunk but motorcycles usually belong to "dieselpunk".

 Having them in GW2 might have worked if designed right but mounts havnt bad added yet.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16835

3/05/13 1:52:57 AM#34
Originally posted by Maephisto

Every time I hear someone complain about no mounts in GW2, I imagine a herd of sheep bleating "mounts."

Laws of Physics? Motorcycles? Really? 

Please rethink the whole "final straw" thing, I enjoy reading your posts too much.

Thewre you are right, flying ships and Davinci styled helicopters are way more off.

But the fact is that Jeff Grubb said that they already worked on mounts over 2 years ago, I guess they will add them with the expansion. There is a limit to how much junk you can throw in a game at launch and frankly shouldnt mounts be a top priority.

  cronius77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1312

3/05/13 2:00:41 AM#35

Engineers do have a ton of grips to complain about and anyone who thinks they do not are not looking at classes fairly. They are supposed to be a build jack of all trades but seem to not fit one good class mechanic compared to every other class. 100 nades is nurfed now kits etc and it looks like all they got positive this past patch was a larger heal. I think the class needs to really be reworked.

Also my main is a 80 geared warrior , if you are running 100b in wvw then you deserve to die in wvw and think the class sucks of course. Greatsword is only used for mobility in WvW , so im not sure where posters are complaining about warriors in WvW sucking. If you want to be viable as a warrior use hammer and knockdown and swap to greatsword if you want to hit 100b. 100B is not burst dps in pvp there is much better weapons to choose from for skirmish. Axe/Axe is also underated until someone who knows how to build hits you for over 10k with evis. Greatsword is ment in WvW for pairing with a controller in your party and vigor.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2889

There... are... four... lights!

3/05/13 3:53:46 AM#36
Originally posted by itgrowls

If they read you're history they will see my point about the syndrome. It's not the game I don't like so much as the poor management that has taken over the patching of this game. It had great potential in the beginning but they let things like Dungeoneer/Raiders demands dictate how they should proceed and they also failed to learn anything from mmo history regarding what works and what doesn't work. It's obvious none of them are gamers or they wouldn't have used things like DR in their game, at least one of them would have remembered how that destroyed many a title in the past. Guess large sums of money really does go to their heads. 

Also, if you read far enough back you can see how I too was once ensnared by the Stockholm Syndrome but eventually was freed from it. Now I'm free to determine what really is wrong with a title without those rose tinted glasses.

I see... so you hold the only truth, and all those of us who happen to enjoy the game since beta and still have as much fun playing it today as we had on day one are wrong and somehow victims of the "Stockholm Syndrome".

Gotcha.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Kaleston

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/11
Posts: 176

3/05/13 4:07:38 AM#37

I don't know... ranting about physics law in phantasy world? Considering engineer in GW2 is partially based on steamtek charr and partially on magic powered asura tech. It's true, engineer can be portrayed differently, but I thik it fits the world quite nicely. If this kind of engineer was placed into shadowrun world or so, it would be outrageous, but in gw2? It's perfectly reasonable.

I enjoy my engineer quite a lot. I play mostly normal guns + all sorts of turrets and it's quite fun. I agree that engineer is kinda lack luster... But who really cares in casual game like gw2? So far I've never heard WoW style "LF1M DPS 6000k+" or so... The main point is to enjoy your play, it would be cool if we can keep gw2 without hunger for power attribute.

As of physics...Almost anything in gw2 is physcially nonsense. Flying rocks... I very very doubt even those dragos would actually be capable of flying. Charr tanks? I very doubt something like that would be possible to exist. If you want proper physics, you should probably go for sci-fi themed game, not a phantasy when, where answer to anything is MAGIC!

  thengeance

Novice Member

Joined: 5/17/09
Posts: 6

3/05/13 9:12:16 AM#38

The story in that game is awful for any character. I wish they would have spent the cutscene/voice acting resources elsewhere.

I'll agree with the OP in that I am/was a disappointed engineer, but mostly because I had different expectations for WvW. I thought siege weapons were going to benefit from having an engi around, or that we would be in some way useful with turrets. Occasionally the latter is true, but typically only in select sPvP situations last time I played. The point here is that the class itself is poorly designed, doesn't seem to capture what some of us thought being an engineer would be, and we're just a bit disappointed. That doesn't mean the game is a piece of junk, or that anyone who plays it is a slave; just that some of us are really disappointed.

Point well taken from Fargin... this is why people who are interested in some of these games should do their best to get involved early on so the devs can get a diverse set of opinions, democracy and all that. I need to doa much better job of this myself so that I can at least know the reasoning behind decisions that I dislike.

If I had a core of friends playing this game, I would be able to overcome its shortcomings. But, for me, this one just wasn't my cup of heroin. 

 

  FARGIN_WAR

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/12
Posts: 169

3/05/13 9:17:22 AM#39
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by itgrowls

If they read you're history they will see my point about the syndrome. It's not the game I don't like so much as the poor management that has taken over the patching of this game. It had great potential in the beginning but they let things like Dungeoneer/Raiders demands dictate how they should proceed and they also failed to learn anything from mmo history regarding what works and what doesn't work. It's obvious none of them are gamers or they wouldn't have used things like DR in their game, at least one of them would have remembered how that destroyed many a title in the past. Guess large sums of money really does go to their heads. 

Also, if you read far enough back you can see how I too was once ensnared by the Stockholm Syndrome but eventually was freed from it. Now I'm free to determine what really is wrong with a title without those rose tinted glasses.

I see... so you hold the only truth, and all those of us who happen to enjoy the game since beta and still have as much fun playing it today as we had on day one are wrong and somehow victims of the "Stockholm Syndrome".

Gotcha.

Of course you are. Anyone who claims to play MMORPGs these day because they happen to enjoy them is highly suspicious and must be up to something.

If you don’t do stupid things while you’re young, you’ll have nothing to smile about when you’re old.

  Stayonboard

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/28/10
Posts: 79

3/05/13 5:22:03 PM#40
I love my engineer. Level 80, just sayin. So much goodness, tho I get why some ppl struggle and as a result don't enjoy playing them
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