I think Star Citizen is a good example of mmo evolution.  You can run a vanilla, persistent world while giving the community the ability to mod the game and host their own modded servers.  This adds replayability to the game and people don't get bored as easily, waiting for the next big developer update.  Developers can focus on expansions and the game will continue to sell boxes.  Empowering the creative minds in a community with a good toolset may do wonders for longevity and box sales.  DayZ made a lot of money for BI from people that had no idea what Arma2 was. 

Just an opinion.

Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Dihoru

A game is not a business, a developer is, a game is just a product, just FYI ;).

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*speechless*

Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-

Dark and light or whatever it was called, a more recent example would be the Amular MMO which was in production, which failed after releasing a single player entry for the franchise. They certainly didn't make back their investments.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Dihoru

A game is not a business, a developer is, a game is just a product, just FYI ;).

---

 

*speechless*

Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-

Dark and light or whatever it was called, a more recent example would be the Amular MMO which was in production, which failed after releasing a single player entry for the franchise. They certainly didn't make back their investments.

Dark and Light was a fair while ago and "the Amular MMO" was by no means an indie game. It was a new company but it was a sizeable company with lots of overheads which is why they ran out of money so quickly.

PS, I don't want to be a part of that conversation I just objected to the Amular MMO being called an indie MMO just because the marketing pitch was that it was a labour of love. Hell EA was publishing it and it had big investors to answer to.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Dihoru

A game is not a business, a developer is, a game is just a product, just FYI ;).

---

 

*speechless*

Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-

Dark and light or whatever it was called, a more recent example would be the Amular MMO which was in production, which failed after releasing a single player entry for the franchise. They certainly didn't make back their investments.

A quick google on dark and light revealed it was a P2P themepark MMO that got took down because of a lawsuit but it was bug ridden, donno where the indie part comes in as it had investors to answer to and seems to has been an attempt to ride the MMO wave generated by WoW so you can hardly call it indie or a labour of love.

Kingdoms of Amalur in contrast was not a game linked failure, it was a management failure, read up on it, the guys in charge of 38 studios did not meet their loan payments and got their crap repoed by what I remember. The MMO never got beyond pre-alpha stage and while you could call the game indie (as it was based on KoA which was a self published game made for gamers first) and a labour of love the single player part of the game was not a financial failure (hell I think they shipped around 1 mil copies before closing) but the company was just mismanaged into the ground.

Originally posted by ozmono

I am curious about what people think will happen in the future of the genre so I have presented several questions below. Feel free to answer any, all or any number of questions you wish or anything related I didn't mention.

 

Will they stay roughly the same with the odd change happening here and there? or will they change dramatically?

Dramatically into non-MMOs. LOL, WOT shows that you can be really successful essentially doing nothing but arena combat. Ditch the world. Ditch the whole MMO concept.

D3 shows that you can add some MMO elements (AH, crafting) to a ARPG and be really successful. I think the future is a fragmentation. PoE is another example. An online ARPG with world zones.

MMO elements are taken into other games, and vice versa. Look at the new Destiny. A "share-world" shooter, instead of a proper MMO.

Will they integrate new peripherals such as the emerging virtual reality systems?

Probably not. 

Will a few mass appealing games continue to dominate ? or will the MMO players have more choices and consequently scatter across several niches?

There are already many choices. STO, DDO, LOTRO, TERA, RIFT, ...... 

Will the cost of producing them keep spiraling out of control? or will new technologies make them cheaper to produce?

There will be big ones, and small ones.  The small ones may focus on one aspect of gameplay and ditch the "have to have everything" approach.

Will MMOs even continue to survive with the current populations? or will growing genres such as social and mobile games make them endangered?

Hard to say. I guess we will see. There is no lack of new development though.

 

What do people expect from the future from MMOs?

Fun games. Most players probably don't care about games being "proper MMOs" as long as they are fun.

Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Dihoru

I am not saying those guys are the future because they're indie, I am saying they're the future because they got no investors/bosses who demand a certain level of profit for their investment which stiffles creativity because as a dev you're afraid to take risks because it might fail even worse than by just copying other games.

---

 

If games are not making profit, there is no future for games therefore developers not focusing on profit cannot be a future of the industry...simple logic.

Simply flawed logic ^^ Minecraft started out as a labour of love and shot through the roof, League of Legends again was made of a group of developers who loved DotA and had ideas how to improve upon it, Space Pirates and Zombies, Wurm Online, I can keep going on and on and on about labours of love that while they do not have any sure bet way of turning a massive profit do turn one enough for the devs to make the development of the game their job and keep both them and their families fed.

I'd agree up to a point.  Those who do games for the sake of games will likely always be with us.  As the available tools become capable of more and more, we are likely to see even more of that.   But I suspect thats inherently self limiting.

The largest advances are likely to be in those who combine a love of what they are doing, with the connections/social skills required  to attract venture funding.   Money is, and will likely remain (as long as we live in a scarcity economy) one of the prime motivators for personal advancement.

Once we move beyond a scarcity economy, all bets are off.  But barring a sequence of genius flashes, I doubt many of us are going to live to see that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy

This is what one possible future of that type, may look like.

http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

But looking back, I doubt anyone could have predicted (before hand) what would happen when Blizzard started WoW, and it exploded as it did.  Perhaps we will see something like that (or even more so) in the future.

“Will they stay roughly the same with the odd change happening here and there? or will they change dramatically?”

- Nothing in life stops changing unless there is a counter force to stop it changing. I see no such force apart from those of us who complain on forums and platform issues. Neither will halt that change.

“Will they integrate new peripherals such as the emerging virtual reality systems?”

- They will but come back in thirty years my which time they will have done it.

“Will a few mass appealing games continue to dominate ? or will the MMO players have more choices and consequently scatter across several niches?”

- Players have already scattered. Then they swarm locust like on a title before scattering again.

“Will the cost of producing them keep spiraling out of control? or will new technologies make them cheaper to produce?”

- Too many factors here to make a sound judgment.

“What effects will crowdfunding have on the genre?”

- Saturate it even more. One of these new gameplay style MMOs may make a killing. If so it will be the template all new kickstarter MMO’s are based on.

“Will MMOs even continue to survive with the current populations? or will growing genres such as social and mobile games make them endangered?”

- They already are endangered, Social and Mobile gaming is already having a negative impact.

“What do people expect from the future from MMOs?”

More of the same, that’s how life goes.

Originally posted by Dihoru

Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-

• Aerrevan
• Knights of Dream City
• Black Prophecy
• Fasaria World
• Celetania
• Earth Eternal
• Secondhand Lands
• 7Million
• Rubies of Eventide
• Earthrise
• Fury
• Gods and Heroes: Rome Rising
• Dungeon Empires

Never out the gate...

• Firefly Universe
• Dawntide
• well, this column could go on almost forever. :)

Will they stay roughly the same with the odd change happening here and there? or will they change dramatically?
They will stay the same for some time yet.
 
Will they integrate new peripherals such as the emerging virtual reality systems?
No. New technology cuts into which players can play the game and the focus right now is "as many players as possible."

Will a few mass appealing games continue to dominate ? or will the MMO players have more choices and consequently scatter across several niches?
I don't foresee another WoW in the near future. The MMO players today no longer seek a long term commitment from their "games."
 
Will the cost of producing them keep spiraling out of control? or will new technologies make them cheaper to produce?
The technology and player expectations will keep costs high. Voice acting is not cheap. Varied and deep artwork is not cheap. Each bell and whistle adds to the cost.
 
What effects will crowdfunding have on the genre?
I think that will fade, in time.
 
Will MMOs even continue to survive with the current populations? or will growing genres such as social and mobile games make them endangered?
That is a good question. Not many MMOs released in the past 10 years have actually shut down. Somehow, they are making money. Social and mobile gaming, to me, is a "shiny new thingie" that will dull when their limitations become apparent. Look at mobile games right now. Are there many kinds of games that aren't a basic re-hash of old 8 bit console/arcade games? Sure, they look prettier, but you still basically jump and shoot things.
 
What do people expect from the future from MMOs?
Not much, really. MMOs will be produced to please as many players as possible which means they won't please many players at all. There will be F2P games galore where players will jump from game to game to game and any one game's community will suffer. The main thought in most player's minds will still be "me first" for quite some time to come.

MMOs have lost their roleplaying aspect. Most players today don't want it. *They* want to be the hero, not their character. Most players break every game down to bare numbers and do the math to get the best, most efficient results. That is the attitude for winning and has its place, but not in RPGs.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dihoru

Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-

• Aerrevan
• Knights of Dream City
• Black Prophecy
• Fasaria World
• Celetania
• Earth Eternal
• Secondhand Lands
• 7Million
• Rubies of Eventide
• Earthrise
• Fury
• Gods and Heroes: Rome Rising
• Dungeon Empires

 

Never out the gate...

• Firefly Universe
• Dawntide
• well, this column could go on almost forever. :)

 

If you want to refine what qualifies for indie I can put together a better list for you.

 

And what about games that didn't shut down but never recouped their development costs and so were sold off one or more times (eventually they did make money but not for the original team and only after the buyer got them for a bargain). 

Istaria and FE come to mind for starters, probably many more, Ryzom perhaps.

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Originally posted by Loktofeit
The next era is here. The people clinging to what a 'true' MMO 'should be' are just not part of it.

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

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Originally posted by Loktofeit
The next era is here. The people clinging to what a 'true' MMO 'should be' are just not part of it.

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That was the hardest part for me, but I am coming to grips with it :)

It is not about wanting all MMO's gameplay to stay true to the old days. It is about having more than one version of a MMO and thus more than one version of gameplay. Not having every MMO become an easy mode MMO. There is room for older and newer elements in any MMO.

The MMO market as it now stands is not totally homogeneous, it is this drive to only designing one way that is detrimental to the gaming. Look at TSW, STWOR (user centric quests), PS2. The genre is still trying to doing new things, dont give up hope yet.

And as to not being part of it, trying to tell us that we will be missing out in some way. Oh I am so worried I will not be part of the lemmings who throw themselves of the cliff. Think for yourself, don’t go with the crowd. I play with friends in guilds, the game is secondary to me now, which is why I put up with easymode.

I am quite happy to watch them jump while I stay up here and wave them goodbye. :)

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dihoru

Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-

• Aerrevan
• Knights of Dream City
• Black Prophecy
• Fasaria World
• Celetania
• Earth Eternal
• Secondhand Lands
• 7Million
• Rubies of Eventide
• Earthrise
• Fury
• Gods and Heroes: Rome Rising
• Dungeon Empires

 

Never out the gate...

• Firefly Universe
• Dawntide
• well, this column could go on almost forever. :)

 

If you want to refine what qualifies for indie I can put together a better list for you.

 

Uhmm... Dawntide and last time I checked the Firefly MMO (under a different name) are still alive (under lax development scheduals) and as for the rest:

-Aerrevan - still alive

-Knights of Dream City - official servers down, they're selling licences to host private servers last news I see?? o.O even I donno what's up with this but by the looks of the graphics and the amount of time it stayed live (over a year) it should've made back its budget (2010 with those graphics... you know it wasn't much of a budget to begin with)

-Black Prophecy - stayed up for more than a year, wasn't much of a game to begin with (played it myself near launch day), buggy, bad translation, etc, not much of a labour of love but considering it stayed live for a year + it could've earned its budget back but just wasn't making enough to justify development.

-Fasaria World - still alive

-Celetania - P2P, stayed alive for almost a year, graphics level is lower than Beyond Protocol so I'd assume they made their investment back (this being on the cusp of the F2P era why wouldn't they have tried a F2P system if they hadn't?)

-Earth Eternal - Company/publisher filed for bankruptcy, game itself was bought by a japanese developer, fate unknown, considering the engine (OGRE) it was not an expensive game to make most likely ergo it probably was profitable while active just that it wasn't enough to save its parent company.

-Secondhand Lands - lived for what looks to have been nearly 2 years (can't find any credible information on it) as a F2P title, graphics compared to the era are rudimentary ergo likelyhood is they made their budget back at least.

-7Million "Even though all of this sounds really interesting, as a social MMO 7Million is still more of a large interactive chat room than an actual game, but it still has plenty of distractions to keep players busy." with minigames on top... I think this is IMVU's bastard brother.

-Rubies of Eventide: Launched on a donation system and ended 6 years after launch... I am no economy expert but sounds like it made its budget back and en some and by what I've read the source code was not made public so there's a chance it hasn't gone into the night fully.

-Earthrise: P2P game that got pushed out  the door too soon, tanked because of it, F2P future still undecided.

-Fury: Mismanaged into the ground with a F2P conversion.

-Gods and Heroes: Still alive by what I can tell, B2P.

-Dungeon Empires: No clue what happened to this one, no news no nothing regarding its shutting down, Hell I can find twitter posts from the devs up until october regarding a patch then nadda, your guess is as good as mine.

Moar please :3

Originally posted by Scot

 

It is not about wanting all MMO's gameplay to stay true to the old days. It is about having more than one version of a MMO and thus more than one version of gameplay. Not having every MMO become an easy mode MMO. There is room for older and newer elements in any MMO.

The MMO market as it now stands is not totally homogeneous, it is this drive to only designing one way that is detrimental to the gaming. Look at TSW, STWOR (user centric quests), PS2. The genre is still trying to doing new things, dont give up hope yet.

If you want a challenge, play pvp games. You mentioned PS2. It is never easy mode in that game, just because your opponent is human.

Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dihoru

Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-

• Aerrevan
• Knights of Dream City
• Black Prophecy
• Fasaria World
• Celetania
• Earth Eternal
• Secondhand Lands
• 7Million
• Rubies of Eventide
• Earthrise
• Fury
• Gods and Heroes: Rome Rising
• Dungeon Empires

 

Never out the gate...

• Firefly Universe
• Dawntide
• well, this column could go on almost forever. :)

 

If you want to refine what qualifies for indie I can put together a better list for you.

 

Uhmm... Dawntide and last time I checked the Firefly MMO (under a different name) are still alive (under lax development scheduals).. which means they were never published, thus 'never out of the gate'. My apologies for the colloquialism as that probably is what created the confusion.

-Aerrevan - still alive

Aerrevan did not make back the initial 1 million investment in the game.

-Knights of Dream City - official servers down, they're selling licences to host private servers last news I see?? o.O even I donno what's up with this but by the looks of the graphics and the amount of time it stayed live (over a year) it should've made back its budget (2010 with those graphics... you know it wasn't much of a budget to begin with)

And it has tanked. It is no longer in operation.

-Black Prophecy - stayed up for more than a year, wasn't much of a game to begin with (played it myself near launch day), buggy, bad translation, etc, not much of a labour of love but considering it stayed live for a year + it could've earned its budget back but just wasn't making enough to justify development.

And it has tanked. It is no longer in operation.

-Fasaria World - still alive

And it has tanked and closed. It was recently reopened to try again. 

-Celetania - P2P, stayed alive for almost a year, graphics level is lower than Beyond Protocol so I'd assume they made their investment back (this being on the cusp of the F2P era why wouldn't they have tried a F2P system if they hadn't?)

It was Omega Days with graphics. They sold less boxes than expected and went into triage mode only three months after release. The PBBG formula simply did not work, although it was definitely a valiant effort on their part to make it work.

-Earth Eternal - Company/publisher filed for bankruptcy, game itself was bought by a japanese developer, fate unknown, considering the engine (OGRE) it was not an expensive game to make most likely ergo it probably was profitable while active just that it wasn't enough to save its parent company.

Earth Eternal tanked and closed. They even stated on their site that the closing would happen as soon as the host shut them down for non-payment.

-Secondhand Lands - lived for what looks to have been nearly 2 years (can't find any credible information on it) as a F2P title, graphics compared to the era are rudimentary ergo likelyhood is they made their budget back at least.

Yes, the server was online for two years. Something about a PCU of 25-50 probably had something to do with it closing, though. Tanked.

-7Million "Even though all of this sounds really interesting, as a social MMO 7Million is still more of a large interactive chat room than an actual game, but it still has plenty of distractions to keep players busy." with minigames on top... I think this is IMVU's bastard brother.

Aaaaand it tanked. It is no longer in operation.

-Rubies of Eventide: Launched on a donation system and ended 6 years after launch... I am no economy expert but sounds like it made its budget back and en some and by what I've read the source code was not made public so there's a chance it hasn't gone into the night fully.

Aaand it tanked, not once, but at least twice. No attempts by three different companies could keep it running.

-Earthrise: P2P game that got pushed out  the door too soon, tanked because of it, F2P future still undecided.

Which means it tanked. Servers closed a year ago.

-Fury: Mismanaged into the ground with a F2P conversion.

Although I think Adam is a great game designer, this game was poor design from the start. Auran's management and marketing just compounded it.

-Gods and Heroes: Still alive by what I can tell, B2P.

Gods and Heroes hasnt had a dev team for over a year. They have long since gotten rid of most of their CS staff as well. They have not recovered the five million that Castoro sank into the game, and announced such around this time last year.

-Dungeon Empires: No clue what happened to this one, no news no nothing regarding its shutting down, Hell I can find twitter posts from the devs up until october regarding a patch then nadda, your guess is as good as mine.

 Broken (easily gamed) systems were the death knell here. Tanked.

Moar please :3

Look, it's obvious you clicked through wikipedia for your replies, and painfully obvious that was the limit of your research and there is no actual familiarity with the titles or their histories. 

Did you actually want an answer or just want to argue?

EDIT: my spelling sucks sometimes.

Originally posted by Briansho
F2P will take over because customers can set their own prices.

"will"? It already does. Research (posted in other thread) shows that F2P players outnumber p2p players 6 to 1.

The number of players who want to play for free outnumbers those prepared to pay for a MMO. Amazing, any more insights from the world of the bleeding obvious?

Unfortunately apart from filling up space in a virtual world, how do those free players contribute to MMO’s or gaming?

Originally posted by Scot

The number of players who want to play for free outnumbers those prepared to pay for a MMO. Amazing, any more insights from the world of the bleeding obvious?

Unfortunately apart from filling up space in a virtual world, how do those free players contribute to MMO’s or gaming?

Sure .. the key insight is that the industry can survive on a small fraction of whales. There is no need .. even no attempt to make a majority of players to pay.

Sure, free players serve as content for the paying customers, and give some hopes to the devs that they may be paying one day.

And btw, i am not looking to "contribute" anything. Gaming is just entertainment. Why would free players need to contribute to anything?