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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » A proper use of F2P players

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36 posts found
  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

3/03/13 9:31:46 AM#21
Originally posted by 9Prejudice

Lol all I can see from your post is your desire to be placed on a higher pedestal than the (lowly?) non-paying players. 

All the roles you talk about can be done by the AI, and nobody will play as a second-class citizen just because a game is F2P. There will be other games to go to.

Nah, there's no real need for it.

Everyone, and i repeat, everyone in the age of wushu becomes a npc when they log off. Its actually pretty cool even.

And yes paying customers will always be on top of freeloaders, in what society are they not lol. Why F2P players feel they should be on equal ground as someone that contributes to a game is beyond me.

  shalissar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/04/10
Posts: 161

3/03/13 9:53:44 AM#22
Originally posted by Mickle

Why not use them as NPCs, Mobs or indentured servents to make the game better for paying customes?

Spend so much time as an NPC and earn play time.

Same with Mobs and servents.

It should not be that hard and it could make games even more fun than they are now.

Indentured servants, huh. Could you explain how and why a "debt" incurred by being a f2p player could be paid off by this type of feature?

What cost benefits are associated with this?

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12258

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

3/03/13 9:57:27 AM#23
Originally posted by Alot

Look at my throne,
my throne is amazing,
give it a kneel.

That's what I was imagining while reading the OP.

He's not the only one. "I pay, therefore I am... and you are not." is the underlying theme around here.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12258

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

3/03/13 10:00:00 AM#24
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by 9Prejudice

Lol all I can see from your post is your desire to be placed on a higher pedestal than the (lowly?) non-paying players. 

Committed freeloaders *should* be considered second class citizens in these games. They bring nothing to the hobby past showing up... they are just a bunch of mooching tourists riding on the back of the payers.

Anyone who brags anout playing 100% free in a MMORPG loses respect from me, speaking personally. Especially the ones who think that their opinion is as valid as a contributer and that they are entitled to be equal in all things.

If you enjoy something, support it. 

What's annoying is that you can write pretentious, insulting crap like that, but I'm going to get modded for replying to you.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  User Deleted
3/03/13 10:24:49 AM#25

Originally posted by Onomas

So you report someone because you dont agree with their statement or opinion even though he violated no rules? Pretty shaddy there mate.

 Freeloader is the exactly proper term used for someone that doesnt pay, plays for free, and doesnt contribute anything. You helping a person out in game has no meaning when it comes to monetary value which the term was coined for.

"The term "Freeloader" in everyday speech refers to a "mooch" or a beggar.. The technical term for such a person is a free ride."

 

Check under report tabs, you'll find flaming/flame worthy (IE inflammatory) is under there. Stating one's opinion is all fine and dandy, stating it in such a way as to imply it is in any way reflecting a reality is another thing entirely.

Do I really have to educate you what money actually is? (hint: it's got something to do with time)

 

Originally posted by General_Dru-Zod
Originally posted by Dihoru
I find it offensive that you think support can only be given by dollars, it is a materialistic approach which throws wrenches into the works of more game communities than you can possibly imagine and you do it in a very broad brush approach. Some freeloaders are negative, some paying/premium players are also negative and when I say negative I mean toxic for the health of the community and the game's overall gameplay but if you for one moment think "freeloaders are just mooching off paying customers and add nothing to the hobby" should be allowed when your definition of freeloader is someone who doesn't put money down for a game then I am truly sorry but you're wrong and insulting not only me but millions of other players who for whatever reasons cannot afford to pay for a game but do enjoy it nonetheless and bring whatever else they can to it (positivity, helping paying members, helping edit wikis, helping noob players get a start in the game,etc). Now if you'd revise your definition of freeloader (say "an entitled player who feels they should get more than they're paying for") then I'd be more than ok with what you said but as long as you lump good people into a negative stereotype you're gonna get railed.

 

  1. These arent common traits of a "Free player".

2. None of the blue helps the Devs keep the game running.

1. You'd be surprised how many actually do that stuff (otherwise how can you explain the wealth of wikis floating around some of which aren't even for MMOs ergo your argument further breaks down because then they player in question doesn't even have a reason to do it).

2. So having a friendly group of players help the community prosper ergo make players more likely to actually play and pay for the game does not help the developer in any way ?

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4798

3/03/13 10:41:03 AM#26
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by 9Prejudice

Lol all I can see from your post is your desire to be placed on a higher pedestal than the (lowly?) non-paying players. 

Committed freeloaders *should* be considered second class citizens in these games. They bring nothing to the hobby past showing up... they are just a bunch of mooching tourists riding on the back of the payers.

Anyone who brags anout playing 100% free in a MMORPG loses respect from me, speaking personally. Especially the ones who think that their opinion is as valid as a contributer and that they are entitled to be equal in all things.

If you enjoy something, support it. 

What's annoying is that you can write pretentious, insulting crap like that, but I'm going to get modded for replying to you.

Id' rather someone show me they're ignornat, than make me guess. His post did a great job of doing that imo.

How many ppl play eve for free ? how many would quit the game if the plex system was removed ? Free players and pay players exchange time for money all the time. Games make more money when players are allowed to make this type of exchange. Both contribute to keeping the game going. These people who buy self-esteem for $15 a month....are worth far less than anyone I know....or would want to.

So I supprt thier right to make fools of themselves here.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1445

3/03/13 11:54:44 AM#27

I could see this - we actually discussed it with creatures once instead of NPCs.

Some people just don't see the devil,devil,evil,evil possibilities - skip to 1:13. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuwYRLAJcEc

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7194

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

3/03/13 12:04:07 PM#28
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by 9Prejudice

Lol all I can see from your post is your desire to be placed on a higher pedestal than the (lowly?) non-paying players. 

Committed freeloaders *should* be considered second class citizens in these games. They bring nothing to the hobby past showing up... they are just a bunch of mooching tourists riding on the back of the payers.

Anyone who brags anout playing 100% free in a MMORPG loses respect from me, speaking personally. Especially the ones who think that their opinion is as valid as a contributer and that they are entitled to be equal in all things.

If you enjoy something, support it. 

How many ppl play eve for free ? how many would quit the game if the plex system was removed ? Free players and pay players exchange time for money all the time. Games make more money when players are allowed to make this type of exchange. Both contribute to keeping the game going.

 

How many folks that buy PLEX with isk have never supported the game financially, either through a sub at some stage or buying PLEX from the store themselves? Does the standard PLEX buyer install the game and played for free from day one?

Look, this kind of system is obviously not included in my statements above. The people that buy PLEX have obviously paid into the system already and continue to drive additional PLEX sales from other players, both of which have supported and continue to support the game. I accept that.

My views above are clearly aimed at the vocal bragging freeloader tourist that logs into a given game and expects to play for free right through their experience and to have a equal right to be heard while they do, complaining if they are 'outrageously' asked to pay a penny in any form. Even worse is the guy that laughs at those that *do* pay while they do it.

To me, they haven't got an equal voice. They have paid nothing in financially and my respect for them reflects that. They can say, 'well, I talk to newbs and that's contributing' all they want, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the same thing. Freeloading their fun off the backs of others.

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1445

3/03/13 12:13:42 PM#29
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by 9Prejudice

Lol all I can see from your post is your desire to be placed on a higher pedestal than the (lowly?) non-paying players. 

...snip

If you enjoy something, support it. 

...snip

 

...snip

My views above are clearly aimed at the vocal bragging freeloader tourist that logs into a given game and expects to play for free right through their experience and to have a equal right to be heard while they do, complaining if they are outragously asked to pay a penny in any form, and even worse guy that laughs at those that *do* pay while they do it.

To me, they haven't got an equal voice. They have paid nothing in financially and my respect for them reflects that. They can say, 'well, I talk to newbs and that's contributing' all they want, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the same thing. Freeloading their fun off the backs of others.

This is part where I put up that clenched unity fist up high. Truer words. The people that think programming doesn't deserve to be paid for can go program their own debacle games.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12258

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

3/03/13 12:23:59 PM#30
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by 9Prejudice

Lol all I can see from your post is your desire to be placed on a higher pedestal than the (lowly?) non-paying players. 

...snip

If you enjoy something, support it. 

...snip

 

...snip

My views above are clearly aimed at the vocal bragging freeloader tourist that logs into a given game and expects to play for free right through their experience and to have a equal right to be heard while they do, complaining if they are outragously asked to pay a penny in any form, and even worse guy that laughs at those that *do* pay while they do it.

To me, they haven't got an equal voice. They have paid nothing in financially and my respect for them reflects that. They can say, 'well, I talk to newbs and that's contributing' all they want, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the same thing. Freeloading their fun off the backs of others.

This is part where I put up that clenched unity fist up high. Truer words. The people that think programming doesn't deserve to be paid for can go program their own debacle games.

While I'm all for people getting paid for their work, it seems like you both do not understand the design and business model of a F2P game. The games are made with the expectationof 80% or so playing for free. If the free players leave, the entire business model breaks. They are just as valuable to the game as the paying customers.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Nightgroper

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/28/12
Posts: 77

3/03/13 12:30:18 PM#31
You know this all sounds like a great idea! You could even put those dirty, scum sucking F2Pers in some sort of bondage! Like um..chains! Yeah! Then you could line them up and buy your very own NPC/F2Per and have them do things for you, no need to pay them though since you already bought them. You could even get more than one, and the others you're not using you could store somewhere. There could even be an option to punish them, with something like, um, ah, oh! I know a whip! Yeah, it's all coming together.

The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4651

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

3/03/13 12:32:59 PM#32
Originally posted by Nightgroper
You know this all sounds like a great idea! You could even put those dirty, scum sucking F2Pers in some sort of bondage! Like um..chains! Yeah! Then you could line them up and buy your very own NPC/F2Per and have them do things for you, no need to pay them though since you already bought them. You could even get more than one, and the others you're not using you could store somewhere. There could even be an option to punish them, with something like, um, ah, oh! I know a whip! Yeah, it's all coming together.

worked well for a couple thousand years...some animals respond well to praise and rewards, all animals respond well to fear and punishment.

  User Deleted
3/03/13 12:36:03 PM#33
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by 9Prejudice

Lol all I can see from your post is your desire to be placed on a higher pedestal than the (lowly?) non-paying players. 

Committed freeloaders *should* be considered second class citizens in these games. They bring nothing to the hobby past showing up... they are just a bunch of mooching tourists riding on the back of the payers.

Anyone who brags anout playing 100% free in a MMORPG loses respect from me, speaking personally. Especially the ones who think that their opinion is as valid as a contributer and that they are entitled to be equal in all things.

If you enjoy something, support it. 

How many ppl play eve for free ? how many would quit the game if the plex system was removed ? Free players and pay players exchange time for money all the time. Games make more money when players are allowed to make this type of exchange. Both contribute to keeping the game going.

 

How many folks that buy PLEX with isk have never supported the game financially, either through a sub at some stage or buying PLEX from the store themselves? Does the standard PLEX buyer install the game and played for free from day one?

Look, this kind of system is obviously not included in my statements above. The people that buy PLEX have obviously paid into the system already and continue to drive additional PLEX sales from other players, both of which have supported and continue to support the game. I accept that.

My views above are clearly aimed at the vocal bragging freeloader tourist that logs into a given game and expects to play for free right through their experience and to have a equal right to be heard while they do, complaining if they are 'outrageously' asked to pay a penny in any form. Even worse is the guy that laughs at those that *do* pay while they do it.

To me, they haven't got an equal voice. They have paid nothing in financially and my respect for them reflects that. They can say, 'well, I talk to newbs and that's contributing' all they want, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the same thing. Freeloading their fun off the backs of others.

You've just shot yourself in the foot with a 20 gauge son... you respect the plex system which advocates free to play with allot of work but not F2P gamers in general? News flash: games where you can trade for cash shop items or for cash shop currency have been around at least by my knowledge since 2005 (Navyfield 1 where you could buy everything from the in-game cash shop via purchasing it from a player in exchange for credits) and Star Trek Online further pushes the model into the spotlight by allowing players to trade for cash shop currency which they can use in multiple games via the dilithium exchange, now by your own words "The people that buy -insert pixel name- have obviously paid into the system already and continue to drive additional -insert pixel name- sales from other players, both of which have supported and continue to support the game. I accept that." so the freeloaders who've never ever paid for anything in STO in their lifetimes (I am excluded as I did buy the Digital Delux edition back when it was freshly launched) are in fact not freeloaders because they fuel demand for an item which players who require dilithium and have the money to spare supply them in exchange for their dilithium.

 

Have fun digging your way out of the logical trap you've stepped into.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7194

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

3/03/13 12:40:10 PM#34
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by 9Prejudice

Lol all I can see from your post is your desire to be placed on a higher pedestal than the (lowly?) non-paying players. 

...snip

If you enjoy something, support it. 

...snip

 

...snip

My views above are clearly aimed at the vocal bragging freeloader tourist that logs into a given game and expects to play for free right through their experience and to have a equal right to be heard while they do, complaining if they are outragously asked to pay a penny in any form, and even worse guy that laughs at those that *do* pay while they do it.

To me, they haven't got an equal voice. They have paid nothing in financially and my respect for them reflects that. They can say, 'well, I talk to newbs and that's contributing' all they want, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the same thing. Freeloading their fun off the backs of others.

This is part where I put up that clenched unity fist up high. Truer words. The people that think programming doesn't deserve to be paid for can go program their own debacle games.

While I'm all for people getting paid for their work, it seems like you both do not understand the design and business model of a F2P game. The games are made with the expectationof 80% or so playing for free. If the free players leave, the entire business model breaks. They are just as valuable to the game as the paying customers.

 

Actually this isn't true. I used the words 'committed freeloaders' for a very specific reason, to refer to a specific type of player that is committed to never paying a penny into the game. I am not talking about the occasional cash shopper who may be manipulated into spending something now and again.

These committed guys are worth nothing in terms of revenue, by definition. Them not being there breaks nothing... they are just a necessary evil to be tolerated because the net is cast wide and they slip on in. They aren't essential to the model, they are just an unfortunate effect of it. I think this is why we are starting to see the trend show the first signs of turning back towards smaller niche playerbases, rather then this mass 'whaling' mentality.

 

That all aside, I wish we could get some honest hard figures on this... I would love to know how many committed non spenders stick around long term, as opposed to just bailing for the next game when it becomes hard to play with no money being spent.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7194

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

3/03/13 12:47:56 PM#35
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by 9Prejudice

Lol all I can see from your post is your desire to be placed on a higher pedestal than the (lowly?) non-paying players. 

Committed freeloaders *should* be considered second class citizens in these games. They bring nothing to the hobby past showing up... they are just a bunch of mooching tourists riding on the back of the payers.

Anyone who brags anout playing 100% free in a MMORPG loses respect from me, speaking personally. Especially the ones who think that their opinion is as valid as a contributer and that they are entitled to be equal in all things.

If you enjoy something, support it. 

How many ppl play eve for free ? how many would quit the game if the plex system was removed ? Free players and pay players exchange time for money all the time. Games make more money when players are allowed to make this type of exchange. Both contribute to keeping the game going.

 

How many folks that buy PLEX with isk have never supported the game financially, either through a sub at some stage or buying PLEX from the store themselves? Does the standard PLEX buyer install the game and played for free from day one?

Look, this kind of system is obviously not included in my statements above. The people that buy PLEX have obviously paid into the system already and continue to drive additional PLEX sales from other players, both of which have supported and continue to support the game. I accept that.

My views above are clearly aimed at the vocal bragging freeloader tourist that logs into a given game and expects to play for free right through their experience and to have a equal right to be heard while they do, complaining if they are 'outrageously' asked to pay a penny in any form. Even worse is the guy that laughs at those that *do* pay while they do it.

To me, they haven't got an equal voice. They have paid nothing in financially and my respect for them reflects that. They can say, 'well, I talk to newbs and that's contributing' all they want, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the same thing. Freeloading their fun off the backs of others.

You've just shot yourself in the foot with a 20 gauge son...

Oh ok, show me...

you respect the plex system...

I didn't say I respect it, I personally think gold trading is weak no matter how it is dressed up... I said I accept it as being a valid way of having paid finanicially into the game.

which advocates free to play with allot of work but not F2P gamers in general?

No. I said I accept that the standard PLEX buyer has paid into the game. It isn't the same thing that you are trying to twist this as at all.

 

I will admit that I did not read the rest of what you posted, due to the very foundation seeming to be based on  a misinterpretation of my view.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12258

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

3/03/13 12:54:17 PM#36
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Loktofeit

While I'm all for people getting paid for their work, it seems like you both do not understand the design and business model of a F2P game. The games are made with the expectationof 80% or so playing for free. If the free players leave, the entire business model breaks. They are just as valuable to the game as the paying customers.

Actually this isn't true. I used the words 'committed freeloaders' for a very specific reason, to refer to a specific type of player that is committed to never paying a penny into the game. I am not talking about the occasional cash shopper who may be manipulated into spending something now and again.

These committed guys are worth nothing in terms of revenue, by definition. Them not being there breaks nothing... they are just a necessary evil to be tolerated because the net is cast wide and they slip on in. They aren't essential to the model, they are just an unfortunate effect of it. I think this is why we are starting to see the trend show the first signs of turning back towards smaller niche playerbases, rather then this mass 'whaling' mentality.

That all aside, I wish we could get some honest hard figures on this... I would love to know how many committed non spenders stick around long term, as opposed to just bailing for the next game when it becomes hard to play with no money being spent.

And, again, you either don't understand how the business model works or don't want to understand it. You're not new to these forums or these discussions so it seems very likely the latter. On the off chance it is the former, here's a basic overview of the model:

 

A quick overview of how the F2P business model works

In a F2P MMO, the free players are often as important as the paying ones. The model is managed very differently from a subscription game. While there may very well be back of the queue prioritizing sometimes, the free player is understood to be a very valuable user of the service.

Look at the home page for any F2P game and you will see there are constant events, festivals and special weekends. When you hop in game, you will often see there are GMs and staffers that are hanging out in channel, chatting with the players. The towns or NPCs are usually redecorated for holidays and events. This content is just as much for the free player as the paying player. The reason being is that the free players are, to a certain degree, content for paying players.

Players being content for other players is absolutely true of subscription MMOs, as well. Veteran players will leave a server that feels ‘dead’. When new players log into a ‘dead’ server, they aren’t too likely to stick around. The vanity players need people to show their stuff off to, the entertainers need people to entertain, the raiders and grinders need people to group with, and the socialisers need people to chat with.

In the F2P model, you already know that you’re only getting cash from a small percentage, so it’s not like you are putting much effort into getting cash from the rest – they had no intention of spending anything to begin with, so you focus your energies primarily on those who will. You concentrate your efforts in two areas

  • providing engaging content to bring in as many free players as you can
  • providing desirable items in the mall for the players looking to invest extra in their hobby/entertainment

The vanity case isn’t going to buy new bling if there’s no one to show it off to.
The raider/grinder isn’t going to buy the xp boosts if he doesn’t have players to group with or compete against. The socialiser isn’t going to run his tavern or buy new toys if he’s logging in and just playing alone.

Without the free players, the paying ones quickly leave.

 

Here's a short version that you'll probably like better:

"If you aren't paying for the product or service, you are the product or service."

That says about the same thing in far less words and still allows you to feel you're better than those 'freeloading' 'moochers'.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

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