Originally posted by walltar

 

 

Well it is easy ... lets say that i am nord ... i hate elves, they already told me i can't kill dark elves, I am pissed, so now i hate elves twice as more. If i get to play with elwes then i don't get to hate anyone. Now i hate "enemy" which is not personalized, it is same faceless blob as my faction. Plus how can those faction wage war if they have no home territory? And if they have home territory how is it possible they are taking everybody? It just dont sit with me.

Wouldn't it be better to hate individuals and the faction itself rather then the entire race. The problem with hating an entire group is you are doing it for no actual reason then a predjudice which due to it's nature is a problem with YOU not those you hate. Much better to actually have a legitimate reason that cannot be argued against then one that is laughably easy to argue against. Plus, you have to be some sort of shallow person to take pride in somthing you cannot substantiate.

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Originally posted by walltar

 

 

Well it is easy ... lets say that i am nord ... i hate elves, they already told me i can't kill dark elves, I am pissed, so now i hate elves twice as more. If i get to play with elwes then i don't get to hate anyone. Now i hate "enemy" which is not personalized, it is same faceless blob as my faction. Plus how can those faction wage war if they have no home territory? And if they have home territory how is it possible they are taking everybody? It just dont sit with me.

Wouldn't it be better to hate individuals and the faction itself rather then the entire race. The problem with hating an entire group is you are doing it for no actual reason then a predjudice which due to it's nature is a problem with YOU not those you hate. Much better to actually have a legitimate reason that cannot be argued against then one that is laughably easy to argue against. Plus, you have to be some sort of shallow person to take pride in somthing you cannot substantiate.

Have you ever tried to hate individuals? You don't say "This damn Stalin" ... you say "These samn commies" It is so much satisfying. In WW2 we hated Germans and i gather that america have long tradition of hate based on factions. Well even in my country we hate gypsies ... it is human nature to hate based on faction, race, prefered manufacturer of electronics ... You just have to embrace the hatred.

Originally posted by walltar  ~ snip

Originally posted by Ryowulf ~ snip

I would like to say that I think there is a lot more to faction pride than segergated races.  In ESO many of the races are similar in size, have the same type of legs and other than tails, it would be difficult to tell a difference.  If this is all that seperates it from GW2 then this game is gonna have a lot more problems than we originally thought.

I'd like to see a world in disorder rather than a neat little war that conveniently connects 3 races within 3 factions.   I would suggest 3 houses/groups fighting for order instead of 3 groups of races;

• Breton Merchant Lord who hired a prestigious Redguard army.  Although Orcs are seen as outcasts, they work for low wages or the promise of land... some are even sold as slaves.
• Nord High King who is trying to unite the people of his land (against the wishes of some nords).  He has a Dark Elf friend and counciler.  The Argonians are suffering from their own civil wars and the King has taken in many refugees.
• High Elf Queen who returns to replace her dying father.  She has made many Wood Elf and Khajiit friends in her travels and played a large part in helping victims from the Knahaten Flu.

Originally posted by gimmesome

While I personally am looking forward to playing TESO, I fully understand all of the skepticism and negative feedback from the fanbase.

 

First of all, it is not a WoW clone anymore than Tekken is a Street Fighter clone.    However, it is abundantly clear that it does indeed have much more in common with DAoC design.   Seriously, there is no legitimate argument against that if you've done the TESO research and are well versed in DAoC's world/dynamics.    

Ironically enough DAoC with it's RvRvR was very engaging, and still thought of by many to this day to have the best approach to world PVP.  

 

So, what is the problem with TESO then?   Well, the Elder Scrolls series was never meant to be a pvp slugfest.   PVP was never part of the approach in Elder Scrolls games.    So, the choice to wrap the online iteration of this series around the 'perfect' pvp infrastructure seems kind of unnatural, especially considering how much of the fundamental aspects of the Elder Scrolls series had to be changed or removed completely in order for the game to fit in to this 3 faction ruleset. 

 

Elder Scrolls fans love the games because of how open and free they are.  Freedom of travel, freedom of decision, freedom of picking your allies and your enemies.  Freedom to change their role in the story. Freedom to be good today, bad tomorrow.  And, most importantly (in my opinion) freedom to develop one's character in the way they see fit, without rigid class boundaries and templates to follow.

 

This, in a nutshell, is what I think is bothering many of the fans about the information currently available on TESO.

cheers

I completely agree with everything you said here. The blending of the famous DAoC pvp elements to the setting of TES is unnatural.

However, at the same time, I think we as the fans also have to remember that we all can't be the Dragonborn here, or the one to help save all of Tamriel from the Daedric princes, etc. We are Nord #354 in a world of thousands. This is more about the experience of the world in an ancient setting. While we are used to seeing the world through the eyes of a singular character who plays a key role in the goings on in the world. This is also one of the many reasons why I feel using a single player IP is a bad idea for a mmo, because many things are lost in translation.

TESO could be a fine mmo experience, but there's always going to be comparisons to Oblivion, Skyrim, Morrowind, and other mmos. There is always going to be some underlying resentment of the game, because it's not Skyrim Online.

It's probably best to ignore the TES label on the game, and just attempt to make a judgement of the face value of what the game has to deliver. The game itself is attempting a megaserver structure, which is uncommon. It's also attempting to bring back 3 faction RvR gameplay. It's also attempting to have a more openish skill set, while retaining a class structure. There's a lot of potentially good things going on with TESO, but I'm afraid much of that will be ignored due to the label.

Originally posted by Alberel

Originally posted by treelo
TES 6, because any elder scrolls fan with half a brain will realise the sacrifices necessary to make a succesful mmo out of the franchise would destroy what made the games popular in the first place.

What made the games popular in the first place were freedom of exploration, freedom of choice and freedom to develop your character however you chose. All three have been scrapped from TESO yet ironically all three have been present in popular MMOs before so clearly you're spouting nonsense. Zenimax removed them because they were so desperate to focus on RvR (a feature that has nothing to do with the TES lore) and sacrificed the integrity of the franchise itself to do so...

I do wish people would stop talking BS about how the core features of the series wouldn't have translated to an MMO. Oblivion and Skyrim were frequently commented as having systems that would apply very well to an MMO, and it's laughable how stupid Zenimax have been in deciding to ignore and scrap them.

You missed nude body mesh replacers from your list.

Your point holds some merit, I won't deny that.  Freedom has always been at the heart of TES series, but it simply doesn't translate into a multiplayer format.  Not in the manner Bethesda has employed at least, which is a point you wouldn't have dismissed as nonsense with a moment of thought about how the games are actually put together.

Originally posted by walltar

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Originally posted by walltar

 

 

Well it is easy ... lets say that i am nord ... i hate elves, they already told me i can't kill dark elves, I am pissed, so now i hate elves twice as more. If i get to play with elwes then i don't get to hate anyone. Now i hate "enemy" which is not personalized, it is same faceless blob as my faction. Plus how can those faction wage war if they have no home territory? And if they have home territory how is it possible they are taking everybody? It just dont sit with me.

Wouldn't it be better to hate individuals and the faction itself rather then the entire race. The problem with hating an entire group is you are doing it for no actual reason then a predjudice which due to it's nature is a problem with YOU not those you hate. Much better to actually have a legitimate reason that cannot be argued against then one that is laughably easy to argue against. Plus, you have to be some sort of shallow person to take pride in somthing you cannot substantiate.

Have you ever tried to hate individuals? You don't say "This damn Stalin" ... you say "These samn commies" It is so much satisfying. In WW2 we hated Germans and i gather that america have long tradition of hate based on factions. Well even in my country we hate gypsies ... it is human nature to hate based on faction, race, prefered manufacturer of electronics ... You just have to embrace the hatred.

There was something called the Civil War.  Blue vs Grey.  In England and other countries you had Catholics vs Protestant.  Those people managed to hate each other plenty.  You can base factions on race or country, but in making an mmo where you want to gather and retain as many people as possible because you spent so much money on the game, its a better idea to do factions that don't limit choices.

There is actually slavery in Elder Scrolls so you could go with for and against with a 3rd group playing both sides against the middle. 

Also lets keep in mind characters are going to be in armor so how would you even tell they were a member of that race you hate so much? You will tell because they have red names above their heads or something.

---

Originally posted by treelo
Freedom has always been at the heart of TES series, but it simply doesn't translate into a multiplayer format.  Not in the manner Bethesda has employed at least, which is a point you wouldn't have dismissed as nonsense with a moment of thought about how the games are actually put together.

---

Originally posted by walltar

Well it is easy ... lets say that i am nord ... i hate elves, they already told me i can't kill dark elves, I am pissed, so now i hate elves twice as more. If i get to play with elwes then i don't get to hate anyone. Now i hate "enemy" which is not personalized, it is same faceless blob as my faction. Plus how can those faction wage war if they have no home territory? And if they have home territory how is it possible they are taking everybody? It just dont sit with me.

Or .. we are Aldmeri dominion faction which promote elves and elven ideas ... "Hey you humans! Want to join?"

For unlocked factiont you have to change factions to have no racial agenda. I think thtat they could make better factions, but they are limited by lore map of tamriel.

 Or. you read the LORE and realize that the races were not segregated and you get off your DaoC spoon fed faction pride. Even the games makers said they are doing it so players are not confused(read stupid) by who is or is not the enemy.

They say "pride" to cover the fact they dont think you are very smart.

BTW, I dont need seperate races to "hate" who I am fighting...Guess games like AO and SWG was a little too hard for you since anyone could join any side...or even switch. Also...love a RPG that doesnt let me "like" a race, or be a turncoat...and protect my homeland with an invisible wall so its never really at war because it isnt being threatend in any way.

Lastly...your comments about the Aldmeri Dominion. Go look up VELOTH. He led he Altmer on emigrations all over Tamriel LONG before 2E, high elves are living in every part of the world already and the first and second Empire had captured slaves and moved them all over the empire. The races were mixed in terms of who lives in what lands...

closed faction and closed faction lands = limited gameplay and no real war, just fighting in wonderland.

Originally posted by walltar

Have you ever tried to hate individuals? You don't say "This damn Stalin" ... you say "These samn commies" It is so much satisfying. In WW2 we hated Germans and i gather that america have long tradition of hate based on factions. Well even in my country we hate gypsies ... it is human nature to hate based on faction, race, prefered manufacturer of electronics ... You just have to embrace the hatred.

 Nope, sorry...your argument is not valid.

People do hate Hitler...and Stalin...hell, people hate Obama so much they yelled at an empty chair half of what was said wasnt even true!

Also, Commies are not locked behind an invisible wall that you cant pass...and anyone can become one so race isnt limited...or can stop being one at any time and become something else.

Thank you, please try again.

Originally posted by treelo

 

 

Your point holds some merit, I won't deny that.  Freedom has always been at the heart of TES series, but it simply doesn't translate into a multiplayer format. 

Really? What mechanics that are causing the problem wouldn't translate?

Is it impossible to have open worlds? Nope.

Is it impossible to have no artifical borders between regions? Nope.

Is it impossible to not lock a race to a faction. Nope.

Is it impossible to have classless system. Nope.

So what exactly doesn't translate out of the above choices taken?

Give an example of a choice to deviate from the TES games that was done because it would be impossible to translate to an MMO. I will give you one, pause. I have absolutely zero problems with their design of the toolbar. But give me another or better yet provide the reasons why the above are not possible in an MMO..

Originally posted by ozmono

I hear the game being called a wow clone (which I think is silly in the least) and more recently and probably slightly more accurately a daoc spiritual successor that only has elder scrolls lore and nothing else in common with the IP. Now rather than this crap spilling out into every other thread I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to it. What could (within reason please) Zenimax have done to be more faithful to the IP?

 I absolutly love the elders scrolls games played those since Daggerfall.

However I will not play elder scrolls online main reason why is the hevy pvp focus that game has.

Originally posted by walltar

Have you ever tried to hate individuals? You don't say "This damn Stalin" ... you say "These samn commies" It is so much satisfying. In WW2 we hated Germans and i gather that america have long tradition of hate based on factions. Well even in my country we hate gypsies ... it is human nature to hate based on faction, race, prefered manufacturer of electronics ... You just have to embrace the hatred.

I personally don't hate anyone. I dislike people but for a reason. Plus, people who say "I hate all Russians because they are Commies" are ignorant morons " but if they were to say "I hate you because you are a Commie" then you might not agree with them but they have at least formed an opinion based of something substabtial in their eyes, not blind prejudice. TESO makes everyone into ignorant morons who simply hate through blind ignorance and prejudice. It isn't a design feature I personally would want to support so I don't.

Originally posted by ozmono

I hear the game being called a wow clone (which I think is silly in the least) and more recently and probably slightly more accurately a daoc spiritual successor that only has elder scrolls lore and nothing else in common with the IP. Now rather than this crap spilling out into every other thread I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to it. What could (within reason please) Zenimax have done to be more faithful to the IP?

First and foremost To appease me, they would have had to make a, Massive world, that is open and a non linear world without instances.  I do not care about sandbox features. I like PVE but I do not like the feeling that I am being led around by developers. Let me choose my own path. I absolutly hate the end game bottleneck that these themeparks impose on players. Have many dungeons in the game. so players are not bottle necked into everyone wanting to run the exact same dungeon.

To me thats what an Elder scrolls game is about. A large world where your free to choose your own path, and many dungeons

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

---

Originally posted by treelo
Freedom has always been at the heart of TES series, but it simply doesn't translate into a multiplayer format.  Not in the manner Bethesda has employed at least, which is a point you wouldn't have dismissed as nonsense with a moment of thought about how the games are actually put together.

---

What exactly in the TES single player would NOT be do-able in an MMO?

 

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Originally posted by treelo

 

 

Your point holds some merit, I won't deny that.  Freedom has always been at the heart of TES series, but it simply doesn't translate into a multiplayer format. 

Really? What mechanics that are causing the problem wouldn't translate?

Is it impossible to have open worlds? Nope.

Is it impossible to have no artifical borders between regions? Nope.

Is it impossible to not lock a race to a faction. Nope.

Is it impossible to have classless system. Nope.

So what exactly doesn't translate out of the above choices taken?

Give an example of a choice to deviate from the TES games that was done because it would be impossible to translate to an MMO. I will give you one, pause. I have absolutely zero problems with their design of the toolbar. But give me another or better yet provide the reasons why the above are not possible in an MMO..

I would have thought it was fairly obvious, but I guess not.  They're free to scale content to your level.  Without that you're forced to follow their path through the game and hence lose your freedom of choice, and much of your replayability/longevity.  Just take a look at the radiant quest system in Skyrim which helps prevent subsequent playthroughs from becoming stale by randomising quest locations within specific regions of the map.  MMOs are forced to hold your hand and guide you through the world to endgame with the only variations being rare diverging paths along the way.

If anything the race-locked factions are simply a clumsy method of forcing you to take multiple characters to level cap in order to experience all the content and ensure you keep playing, there are plenty of better ways of handling faction balance without needing extensive rewrites to wedge your triangular concept into a circular world.

Classless systems in MMOs only create an illusion of choice, because roles will still need to be fulfilled and unorthodox builds often fall short of the mark.  In the end, it is aesthetics which define your class and skills that define your role, a quick glance at any game with in-depth character development will tell you that.  Want your heavy armour wearing fire mage to wield an axe?  No problem in TES because balance isn't an issue, that stops being the case in a competitive environment.

And last I checked it wasn't the open world that defined TES, it was your ability to do what you wanted in it.  Needless to say, that's straight out of the window here.

With all that said, I'm still hopeful it will turn out for the best and provide some entertainment for a while.  I'm just not going to kid myself into believing I'll ever get a true Elder Scrolls game in anything more than a 2-4 player environment.

Originally posted by treelo

 MMOs are forced to hold your hand and guide you through the world to endgame with the only variations being rare diverging paths along the way. No, that is not the way it used to be, they chose to turn that route to make MMOs playable by CHILDREN and...other kinds of people that if I named them I would be banned.

If anything the race-locked factions are simply a clumsy method of forcing you to take multiple characters to level cap in order to experience all the content and ensure you keep playing. In other words, created by people that cannot create a GOOD MMO seeing as how many MMOs were NOT MADE THAT WAY that did very well. Sure as hell dont recall people having an issue playing games like SWG for years and not only was there no faction lock,you could SWITCH SIDES AND IT HAD NO LEVELS!

Classless systems in MMOs only create an illusion of choice, because roles will still need to be fulfilled and unorthodox builds often fall short of the mark.  Again, NO. You are used to cheaply created MMOs and those locked into the holy trinity box that has limited MMO design more than any single other concept.

And last I checked it wasn't the open world that defined TES, it was your ability to do what you wanted in it.  Needless to say, that's straight out of the window here. It is straight out the window...because OPEN WORLD = the ability to do what you want...wow!

 yep...

Originally posted by walltar

Have you ever tried to hate individuals? You don't say "This damn Stalin" ... you say "These samn commies" It is so much satisfying. In WW2 we hated Germans and i gather that america have long tradition of hate based on factions. Well even in my country we hate gypsies ... it is human nature to hate based on faction, race, prefered manufacturer of electronics ... You just have to embrace the hatred.

What to say to this, what to say?

I suppose I'll start with a couple of acknowledgments. Hate can  feel satisfying yes. Hate can even be a good motivation to aid justice yes.

Now the problem with embracing hatred. It's blinding, it is the single greatest obstacle to something which is far superior to it. The superior force I make reference to isn't attempting to solely embrace reason or be neutral even though I do think that superior to embracing hatred aswell. I hope you can understand.

I wouldn't have felt the need to reach out to you or anyone who thinks this is acceptable had you not referenced real world hatred.

Now onto less serious things like the topic of three faction pvp and faction and area locks. It is worth mentioning that even if those areas won't locked that most players wouldn't explore the different faction areas anyway because they are probably designed to stay relevant to the players progression throughout the story. Or simply put, the different faction areas side quest, mobs and so on would probably still be redundant to most players for good reason. This is how it is in most MMOs that have different faction storylines. Hardly anyone wants to do side quest designed for a level 10 faction B player when they are a level 50 faction A player.

As a disgruntled ES fan, what would appease me?

Keep Cyrodiil as the PvP area. Keep the 3 Factions fighting for control of that specific area.

Remove the Race/Nationality lock on Factions. Let any Race join which ever Faction they choose with the choice to be Neutral. Open everything outside of Cyrodiil to all Races/Nationalities for PvE exploration.

"Hardly anyone wants to do side quest designed for a level 10 faction B player when they are a level 50 faction A player."

Yup, which is why you use a system like GW2 where you delevel. Now you can do the content and have some degree of challenge.

Originally posted by Ryowulf

"Hardly anyone wants to do side quest designed for a level 10 faction B player when they are a level 50 faction A player."

Yup, which is why you use a system like GW2 where you delevel. Now you can do the content and have some degree of challenge.

 

Well I appreciate that you agree but I feel it prudent to point out that Elder Scrolls fans hated the fact that Oblivion had scaling to the extent they did so it's probably not an answer in this context.

Simple, what is PvP based on?  Combat.

What is the worst aspect of TES games? Combat.

Why do people like TES? Collecting dem books! Putting up dat shelf! Running around lost in the middle of nowhere and all of a sudden saying "That looks cool I'm gonna see what it is." Building a character in some weird way. 

Can TESO have all this? Maybe. PvP tends to bring the children who demand 100% balance. So while a "sneaky healer" might be fun to try, the moment something hurts pvp you'll start seeing nerfs until all the fun has been flushed down the toilet.

Anyway, I'm still going to try TESO, I'll just stay away from pvp and hope it stays away from me.