So lets say the maps that are around the starter cities are solable, usually are in mmo's, so you can learn to play better. So what happens when you venture into something like a fort or a dungean and thers no levels, what do you do then? Well you would get more peaple, the combined strength of everyone would naturally make you stronger.

The idea for a no level mmo, is that everyone would have the strengh as the next, and the only way to increase it would be to work as a team. The mmo developed like that could have zones desinged for solo play, which would be fewer mobs running around, same strength as you are. Then they could have zones that would have more mobs running around depending on how many peaple are gona be together. Lets say that make a zone that would be good for group of 4 peaple, and some zones good for groups of 8 peaple, and so on. There could also be NM (Notorias Monsters) that has the strengh of 10 men, so would take around 10 ppl to kill it.

In a game like that there would be no level grinding. Everyone would be the same. There would be evened out content across the entire world for soloist, small groups, and for alliences. Peaple would beable to see on the zone maps how many peaple its designed for. Then when you log in you can deside how you wanna experiance the game.

Basically thinking of an MMO like real life. Everyone is generally as strong as each other, but when thers a gang of peaple the'll be much stronger. A diffrent way to think about MMO's.

Wonder how this way of thinking for an MMO design would pan out. Your thoughts?

Taking away a "carrot" and you need to place it with another equally as good or bad, depending on how you percieve arbitrary advancement.

Romanticising "group play" as a carrot is only going to take you so far, before people flee to other games that has that "carrot" instead

first of all i would probably not play it since character development is one of the main reasons i platy mmo(rpg)s.

but if i omit that, i still have to ask - what would i kill those mobs for? what would be the drive?

i can understand making mmofps w/o char progression, where you would pvp other players (tho i think "normal" multiplayer fps are better for that), but to kill mobs? i can understand making them challenging like raid mobs, but then again - i would kill each of them once and then left bored.

Originally posted by Starpower

Taking away a "carrot" and you need to place it with another equally as good or bad, depending on how you percieve arbitrary advancement.

Grinding up skills instead of levels (the typical no-level mmo scheme, same wine with a different label).

The way he describes it sounds rather like Counterstrike. (non-persistent, no progression) In any case, doesn't seem to provide much incentive for continued play.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Starpower

Taking away a "carrot" and you need to place it with another equally as good or bad, depending on how you percieve arbitrary advancement.

Grinding up skills instead of levels (the typical no-level mmo scheme, same wine with a different label).

The way he describes it sounds rather like Counterstrike. (non-persistent, no progression) In any case, doesn't seem to provide much incentive for continued play.

Is that why nobody plays counterstrike anymore? :P

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Starpower

Taking away a "carrot" and you need to place it with another equally as good or bad, depending on how you percieve arbitrary advancement.

Grinding up skills instead of levels (the typical no-level mmo scheme, same wine with a different label).

The way he describes it sounds rather like Counterstrike. (non-persistent, no progression) In any case, doesn't seem to provide much incentive for continued play.

Is that why nobody plays counterstrike anymore? :P

Counterstrike the MMO. I can't believe that game hasn't been made yet. Just slap that title on it and it would already be making money

Originally posted by tom_gore

Is that why nobody plays counterstrike anymore? :P

I would assume no one plays it any more because it's old. What's the modern equivalent shooter, MW3?

Anyway, he's describing a world that doesn't need persistence, because the characters don't change or evolve.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by tom_gore

Is that why nobody plays counterstrike anymore? :P

I would assume no one plays it any more because it's old. What's the modern equivalent shooter, MW3?

Anyway, he's describing a world that doesn't need persistence, because the characters don't change.

Oh wow. Way to miss the point AND the sarcasm.

It would be a small market game and that alone would make funding hard to do. Any game can be fun. That has less to do with progression and more to do with what you have to do in game.

If they could make the content fun and open ended or snadbox like I don't think people would care so much that it had no player progression.

I completely agree with the op. To keep it right, one should rather say stat progression instead of levelling, because it includes also skill based systems and gear improvement.

Levels are a thing that originates form tabletop rpgs and single player rpgs that gives the player a sense of accomplishment and direct the player through the story. You can’t run towards ganon right away.

In mmos you also want your players to do the low level first and nor run straight to Orr an get Zhitan in GW2 for example. But at lest I don’t get much accomplishment from getting to a level where most other players already are. It only makes me feel weak all the time.

The main problem is that levels they divide the playerbase. GW2 has this quite complicated system where you do level up but the game then scales you down again to match the zone you are in. And you quite fast get max level and high end gear. So levels don’t mean much anymore. I would say the mmo without levels ist the endpoint of a trend that is already there.

The system of small mob = weak and big mob = strong, that you are suggesting, just feels natural and solves a lot of problems. With stat progression a rat at level one and a dragon at level 80 are essentially the same thing. You tend to run into a Dragonball-Z-problem, where at max level you are hacking your way though an army of giant overscaled mobs.

A problem is that it will alienate most players at first, because the quintessential feature of computer rpgs  is that you level. Rpg-elements just mean that you level up something in a game.

One benefit of levels is that they make the game automatically match the skill of the player. If you use all your tools, you can do mobs 10 levels above you, and if not you can hack on mobs 10 levels below you and still feel like a badass.

The downside of this is that it never encourages the player to improve his skill. In most games you can with no problem get to max level by just hammering the 1-key.

And then there are those players that will not improve their player skill or group no matter what you throw at them. (There is nothing bad about it. Some people just want to relax their mind when playing.) Theses players will hit a brick wall once they leave the easier zones. They will realize that they can only access a fraction of the game with their play style. And then they will ragequit and find the next forum to tell everyone how broken the game is.

Originally posted by Sengi

A problem is that it will alienate most players at first, because the quintessential feature of computer rpgs  is that you level. Rpg-elements just mean that you level up something in a game.

 Then don't call it an RPG :)

Originally posted by Sengi
 

i dont think you understood what OP ment - he ment no progression at all, only way to take on stronger mobs would be band with other players, you would not get stronger "over time"

What would you kill the mobs for then? That is a good question. The answer is you won’t, I think, unless the mob is standing in your way to achieve anything else. Killing mobs just for xp is called grinding, I guess, and most people hate that. Also it is bad and lazy game design. If your game isn’t fun to play without skinner-box-features, then you did something wrong.

I would say a good way to keep players interested would be to let them build stuff and compete about stuff and interact with each other and best do something creative, what is called a sandbox. But that is quite hard to achieve of course.

Originally posted by Benedikt

Originally posted by Sengi
 

i dont think you understood what OP ment - he ment no progression at all, only way to take on stronger mobs would be band with other players, you would not get stronger "over time"

No, that was what I was talking about too. What I meant was that if you level up in an conventional mmo the only thing that really happens is that you go to a differed zone and kill differed coloured und bigger scaled mobs. So as I said a lv 1 mob is to a lv 1 player the same as a lv 80 mob to a lv 80 player. It just looks differend and there are higher numbers displayed.

So for that matter one could just leave behind the whole levelling stuff.

Originally posted by Sengi

Originally posted by Benedikt

Originally posted by Sengi
 

i dont think you understood what OP ment - he ment no progression at all, only way to take on stronger mobs would be band with other players, you would not get stronger "over time"

No, that was what I was talking about too. What I meant was that if you level up in an conventional mmo the only thing that really happens is that you go to a differed zone and kill differed coloured und bigger scaled mobs. So as I said a lv 1 mob is to a lv 1 player the same as a lv 80 mob to a lv 80 player. It just looks differend and there are higher numbers displayed.

So for that matter one could just leave behind the whole levelling stuff.

But is that how or even why people play these games? Isn't there a certain reward for progressing in power past a certain enemy or in finding it easier to overcome an obstacle? 

Take for example, Dungeon Runner. One of the issues that became evident with dungeon scalling was that it diminished the feeling of advancement/progression. Whileit's true that a level 1 to a lvel 1 is the same as a level 80 to a level 80, I don't believe it's true that players solely take on even-matched challenges. The purpose of level 2 isn't to give you something to fight at level 2, but to give you something to advance to, defeat and surpass... so on to max level.

I'm no fan of level-based systems, but their purpose and reward is definitely greater than just the tiers the content exists in.

Leveling and character stats progress don't actually have anything to do with role playing. It's just something that has been around since the first tabletop RPGs such as D&D came to life. In computer games, RPG is something that has taken only this leveling and progress and many times ditched what it actually means to role play.

I think this is what the OP is after. A game where you actually play a role, and not do menial and repetitive tasks just to gain levels. Alas, such a game would not be understood by the great majority of the players and as such, would be a great risk to invest in.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Sengi

Originally posted by Benedikt

Originally posted by Sengi
 

i dont think you understood what OP ment - he ment no progression at all, only way to take on stronger mobs would be band with other players, you would not get stronger "over time"

No, that was what I was talking about too. What I meant was that if you level up in an conventional mmo the only thing that really happens is that you go to a differed zone and kill differed coloured und bigger scaled mobs. So as I said a lv 1 mob is to a lv 1 player the same as a lv 80 mob to a lv 80 player. It just looks differend and there are higher numbers displayed.

So for that matter one could just leave behind the whole levelling stuff.

But is that how or even why people play these games? Isn't there a certain reward for progressing in power past a certain enemy or in finding it easier to overcome an obstacle? 

Take for example, Dungeon Runner. One of the issues that became evident with dungeon scalling was that it diminished the feeling of advancement/progression. Whileit's true that a level 1 to a lvel 1 is the same as a level 80 to a level 80, I don't believe it's true that players solely take on even-matched challenges. The purpose of level 2 isn't to give you something to fight at level 2, but to give you something to advance to, defeat and surpass... so on to max level.

I'm no fan of level-based systems, but their purpose and reward is definitely greater than just the tiers the content exists in.

Unfortunately in most "RPGs" today the leveling itself is the only reward you get, and perhaps the ability to see more of the world. As he said, the power gain is just an illusion, as the monsters become tougher too and in many cases, you're fighting the same enemy model in the later levels, with only higher stats.

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Sengi

Originally posted by Benedikt

Originally posted by Sengi
 

i dont think you understood what OP ment - he ment no progression at all, only way to take on stronger mobs would be band with other players, you would not get stronger "over time"

No, that was what I was talking about too. What I meant was that if you level up in an conventional mmo the only thing that really happens is that you go to a differed zone and kill differed coloured und bigger scaled mobs. So as I said a lv 1 mob is to a lv 1 player the same as a lv 80 mob to a lv 80 player. It just looks differend and there are higher numbers displayed.

So for that matter one could just leave behind the whole levelling stuff.

But is that how or even why people play these games? Isn't there a certain reward for progressing in power past a certain enemy or in finding it easier to overcome an obstacle? 

Take for example, Dungeon Runner. One of the issues that became evident with dungeon scalling was that it diminished the feeling of advancement/progression. Whileit's true that a level 1 to a lvel 1 is the same as a level 80 to a level 80, I don't believe it's true that players solely take on even-matched challenges. The purpose of level 2 isn't to give you something to fight at level 2, but to give you something to advance to, defeat and surpass... so on to max level.

I'm no fan of level-based systems, but their purpose and reward is definitely greater than just the tiers the content exists in.

Unfortunately in most "RPGs" today the leveling itself is the only reward you get, and perhaps the ability to see more of the world. As he said, the power gain is just an illusion, as the monsters become tougher too and in many cases, you're fighting the same enemy model in the later levels, with only higher stats.

Agreed. The design has changed a lot since the UO, EQ, AC days. I'm positive someone will correct me if I am wrong here, but it seems that in the older MMOs you didn't need to beat boss A in order to beat boss B to beat boss C, etc etc. It was something you could do but wasn't the sole purpose of the game. The emphasis on level, on both sides of the fence, has gotten so ridiculous that it is focused on to the exclusion of everything else.

Pre-CU SWG had no levels. 

Originally posted by Benedikt

Originally posted by Sengi
 

i dont think you understood what OP ment - he ment no progression at all, only way to take on stronger mobs would be band with other players, you would not get stronger "over time"

 If you look at the history of pen and paper RPGs how did those game which had no progression at all do in the marketplace?