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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » People should stop and think..

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58 posts found
  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

2/27/13 5:14:45 PM#41
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by cybertrucker

1. Games today for the most part have lost a lot of the depth that was found in older games. 

Disagree. EQ has very little depth in combat, compared to even just a ARPG like Diablo 3. There is no proc, no CDs, no synergies in skills (like WW type builds), and no build diversity.

I don't believe older is better, nor more fun.

EQ is stat-resource oriented (EQ1 especially, since you didn't differentiate).  It's designed around group play modes.

 

Solo players will get their face smeared into the ground against same-level mobs.  Strategies were evolved from group mechanics and raid tactics.  Comparing a single player game like D3 to EQ is blasphemy :P

 

Older games not more fun than single player "online" games.  You've identified your demographic =D .. it's not a bad demographic, just one different from those who played those older games.

 And yet people solo'd to cap all the time against same level mobs with necro, monk, bard, paly, beast, sk...

Only some types of mobs.  Not every type.. remember the mobs who would cast summon to put you right next to them ..

 

As for melee, I never really saw that happen pre 2005, when nerfs started going in to dumb the game down.  Soloing was popular in select spots where it was allowed via kiting however (pre-2005).  XP was the main reward, no good drops from those spots to protect the economy (with exclusion to very rare nameds - 1% or less spawn rates?).

 

And someone who camped long enough at least deserved that low-medium quality item reward, lol

 

But overall, even druids (which you left out), soloing wasn't that common.  It took a huge learning curve and a bunch of patience.  The few main spots were not heavily camped or contested.  Very few people solo'ed, compared to the games population.  Death and XP loss was always possible, because of an unexpected bad pull or a mob spawning.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/27/13 5:40:50 PM#42
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by cybertrucker

1. Games today for the most part have lost a lot of the depth that was found in older games. 

Disagree. EQ has very little depth in combat, compared to even just a ARPG like Diablo 3. There is no proc, no CDs, no synergies in skills (like WW type builds), and no build diversity.

I don't believe older is better, nor more fun.

EQ is stat-resource oriented (EQ1 especially, since you didn't differentiate).  It's designed around group play modes.

 

Solo players will get their face smeared into the ground against same-level mobs.  Strategies were evolved from group mechanics and raid tactics.  Comparing a single player game like D3 to EQ is blasphemy :P

 

Older games not more fun than single player "online" games.  You've identified your demographic =D .. it's not a bad demographic, just one different from those who played those older games.

 And yet people solo'd to cap all the time against same level mobs with necro, monk, bard, paly, beast, sk...

Only some types of mobs.  Not every type.. remember the mobs who would cast summon to put you right next to them ..

 

As for melee, I never really saw that happen pre 2005, when nerfs started going in to dumb the game down.  Soloing was popular in select spots where it was allowed via kiting however (pre-2005).  XP was the main reward, no good drops from those spots to protect the economy (with exclusion to very rare nameds - 1% or less spawn rates?).

 

And someone who camped long enough at least deserved that low-medium quality item reward, lol

 

But overall, even druids (which you left out), soloing wasn't that common.  It took a huge learning curve and a bunch of patience.  The few main spots were not heavily camped or contested.  Very few people solo'ed, compared to the games population.  Death and XP loss was always possible, because of an unexpected bad pull or a mob spawning.

There were definately some mobs that were overpowered for their level.

Shudders at D'vinn.

And what was the name of that guy at the WC crossroads?

I forgot about druids actually - they were the first I took to mid 30's. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3734

RIP City of Heroes!

2/27/13 5:55:19 PM#43
Originally posted by Kaneth
Originally posted by seigard
Originally posted by Karteli

Much of the passion with game lovers making games is gone these days, as big corporations can easily afford to brainwash the community into believing whatever they want them to, via huge advertising and viral campaigns.  Take into consideration that many don't actively discuss gaming, but just pick up on a game ad video on the frontpage of YouTube, or a glowing (paid-for?) review.

 

Not to imply that the people working for game companies aren't gamers or enthusiasts, but the ones in charge who pull the strings leaves players wondering.

 

GW2 did a nice job creating a graphically pretty world with artwork and a smooth engine, but the world was unfortunately very shallow.  Graphics vs Gameplay .. many people are more persuaded by awesome high-res graphics, when to me all I needed was a smooth engine and good gameplay .. if that makes sense.

For example, when Sonic the Hedgehog first came out on the Genesis, it's graphics detail wasn't superior, but it was unique with gameplay and an engine that could support much higher framerates.  It's all give and take in games.

 

I guess I could be bold and throw out there that there seem to be 3 main game elements .. (1) graphics detail, pretty visuals (2) graphics engine, smooth & fast, and (3) gameplay, fun & deep ..  Among the currently top MMORPG's (in my eyes):

GW2 has graphics detail and graphics engine

SWTOR has graphics detail and gameplay

WoW has graphics engine and gameplay

 

Perhaps the next step will be to have all 3, instead of just 2 at once.

I agree that the whole passion is gone, it wasnt even a '' market'' when the mmo genre was actually successful

Then the big companies took over and kept on ruining game after game

Well, big companies didn't ruin the genre. SoE was in it with EQ, and then Blizzard entered the market in 2004. Everyone, including smaller companies with mmos under their belt (I'm looking at you Turbine), attempted to copy the WoW formula for mmos, and missed the point entirely.

People wanted to latch on to the cash cow of WoW, but failed to realize that if people want to play WoW, they'll play WoW. Hell, it took until last year with Tera, TSW and GW2 to break the WoW mold, and even then it could be argued that they didn't go far enough.

As far as I can see though, the largest issue with mmos is the community itself. People whined that every game was like WoW for years, and then they whined when games like GW2 weren't like WoW enough. The players in the genre don't give the industry a clear sense of what they want anymore, not that those in the industry would listen much anymore. The community though is mostly vile and filled with armchair developers who spout out random crap like it's fact.

At least with the 2012 relases we saw some change, hopefully we will see more change down the road. Ironically, I am willing to bet that Blizzard with Titan will yet again be the ones to change the market the way they did with WoW.

 Not long after WoW was released I went out with friends for a fun night of drinking and such.  It ended up being several groups of people getting together and it included a number of devs from a few companies.  There was a lot of talk about dev work and the market and wow dominated the talk.  I was shocked and sadened at these people I knew were already so locked into the blizzard mentality or at least the feeling their companies had to do it like blizzard.

This microtransaction business model shouldn't be a surprise.  Cost of entry has been a sticking point for at least 20 years or so.  When people were complaining about paying dollars per hour for AOL NWN and TSN TSOY, the sub model came into existance.  It seems natural that they would try something new as at least an experiment.  When it pays off, they will milk it as hard as they can.

If you look at the film industry, one production company starts working on something and others rush to produce their own version.  This is why we have a number of recent lincoln projects.  We know what the success of Marvel films is doing to hollywood.  Expect more microtransactions like it or not.

  aspekx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

3/01/13 6:12:06 PM#44
Originally posted by BlitzVF
The invisible hand of the market will fix this, if it is indeed a problem.

^ya. just like god, or fate, or the pastafarian spaghetti god.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 490

3/01/13 6:40:55 PM#45
Originally posted by seigard

Everyone behind the creation of recent mmos should just think about the consequences of creating a half polished game.

They do nothing but raise the bar and our expectations will never be pleased by the dissapointment coming after hype.

For example gw2, they did a great job but pvp is meaningless and not fun so people will try to look for a game that will fulfill their needs of pvp and even if they find one they probably will have hard time adapting to the game as their expectations have been lifted by everything else gw2 did good. Every mmo company releases their games in a state where it doesnt fulfill what you could want from a ''complete'' mmo. This is the success of wow, they were there before the expectations were this high and most importantly they had a game which appeald to most of people just like a ''complete'' game would...

I never understood the hype around GW2. His predecessor were a full lobby game that barely can be called a mmorpg, so GW2 never deceived me.

In the other hand, i hyped a little about TERA (in the start). :(

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Toxia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/09
Posts: 1296

3/01/13 6:51:59 PM#46
Originally posted by Karteli

Much of the passion with game lovers making games is gone these days, as big corporations can easily afford to brainwash the community into believing whatever they want them to, via huge advertising and viral campaigns.  Take into consideration that many don't actively discuss gaming, but just pick up on a game ad video on the frontpage of YouTube, or a glowing (paid-for?) review.

 

Not to imply that the people working for game companies aren't gamers or enthusiasts, but the ones in charge who pull the strings leaves players wondering.

 

GW2 did a nice job creating a graphically pretty world with artwork and a smooth engine, but the world was unfortunately very shallow.  Graphics vs Gameplay .. many people are more persuaded by awesome high-res graphics, when to me all I needed was a smooth engine and good gameplay .. if that makes sense.

For example, when Sonic the Hedgehog first came out on the Genesis, it's graphics detail wasn't superior, but it was unique with gameplay and an engine that could support much higher framerates.  It's all give and take in games.

 

I guess I could be bold and throw out there that there seem to be 3 main game elements .. (1) graphics detail, pretty visuals (2) graphics engine, smooth & fast, and (3) gameplay, fun & deep ..  Among the currently top MMORPG's (in my eyes):

GW2 has graphics detail and graphics engine

SWTOR has graphics detail and gameplay

WoW has graphics engine and gameplay

 

Perhaps the next step will be to have all 3, instead of just 2 at once.

Your colors do not match sir. My OCD is stabbing you at this very moment.

The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12255

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

3/01/13 7:01:57 PM#47
Originally posted by seigard

Then the big companies took over and kept on ruining game after game

AC - MIcrosoft

EQ - SONY

UO - EA

 

What companies were bigger than those?

The big companies are what made the genre anything worth noticing (*cue the confused idiot that brings up The Realm and M59*).

 

People should stop and think.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  laokoko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1916

3/01/13 8:28:33 PM#48

Maybe the OP should send a resume as a game designer. 

Let me put it this way, there is something called budget and techical issue.

Have youe ever wonder why warhammer only have 2 faction?  Ya it's called budget.

Camelot Unchain don't have that much budget to do everything.

You said mmorpg dont' need a wow killer and turned around say we need mmorpg to focus on many things.  Ya but that's what make wow great isn't it? it did focus on many thing.  And that's what mmorpg company is trying to match.

And going back to GW2.  In GW2, all the "condition build" is useless.  And the reason why?  Because bleed can't go over 25 stack.  And you know why bleed can't go over 25 stack?  ya budget.  As stupid as it sounds, half of the character build in GW2 is useless because of budget.

If you meant to tell me the game studio "is purposely" releasing bad product, let me rest assure you their not.  They tried.  They just didn't do good enough.

 

  seigard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/10
Posts: 261

 
OP  3/02/13 9:31:42 AM#49
Originally posted by laokoko

Maybe the OP should send a resume as a game designer. 

Let me put it this way, there is something called budget and techical issue.

Have youe ever wonder why warhammer only have 2 faction?  Ya it's called budget.

Camelot Unchain don't have that much budget to do everything.

You said mmorpg dont' need a wow killer and turned around say we need mmorpg to focus on many things.  Ya but that's what make wow great isn't it? it did focus on many thing.  And that's what mmorpg company is trying to match.

And going back to GW2.  In GW2, all the "condition build" is useless.  And the reason why?  Because bleed can't go over 25 stack.  And you know why bleed can't go over 25 stack?  ya budget.  As stupid as it sounds, half of the character build in GW2 is useless because of budget.

If you meant to tell me the game studio "is purposely" releasing bad product, let me rest assure you their not.  They tried.  They just didn't do good enough.

 

I never said they are intentionally creating shitty games, why the hell would they, they just start at something without the budget which you just mentioned, and suddenly you see fuck tons of games around that cand even make ONE good game if you combine their successful parts.

You dont need to be a game designer to talk about games

I still dont think there is a need for a wow killer, there could be a game better than wow but as long as the intentions are killing wow then they will be trying to beat wow not fulfill what players want

Also 25 stack because of budget? come on they release a game that is pretty successful but they cant make new skills or raise the stack ? That has nothing to do with that

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/02/13 9:37:37 AM#50
Originally posted by BlitzVF
The invisible hand of the market will fix this, if it is indeed a problem.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
3/02/13 9:48:28 AM#51

People buy crap because they can.  Whether that is due to creative marketing or just plain stupidity, so long as people are buying, there is no reason to change the formula.  

 

Instead of blaming the developers, blame the consumers.  They won't make it if you don't buy it.  A little self control or common sense would do a world of wonders for the industry... but alas, all it takes is one to put us all back into that downward spiral.

 

Your addiction to gaming is your own self-fulfilling prophecy.  If you could just walk away from it... not just one title, but all of them, then you'd have the power to make a change.  Merely switching from one title to another title isn't sending a message at all.  So long as you are willing to try any game, they will make any game.

  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1133

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

3/02/13 9:58:09 AM#52
Originally posted by seigard

Everyone behind the creation of recent mmos should just think about the consequences of creating a half polished game.

They do nothing but raise the bar and our expectations will never be pleased by the dissapointment coming after hype.

For example gw2, they did a great job but pvp is meaningless and not fun so people will try to look for a game that will fulfill their needs of pvp and even if they find one they probably will have hard time adapting to the game as their expectations have been lifted by everything else gw2 did good. Every mmo company releases their games in a state where it doesnt fulfill what you could want from a ''complete'' mmo. This is the success of wow, they were there before the expectations were this high and most importantly they had a game which appeald to most of people just like a ''complete'' game would...

MMO genre doesnt need a wow killer, it needs a game that can focus on many things, no bullshit like camelot unchained that will only focus on rvr, guess what? people will be bored of rvr even if it is the best of genre and look for alternatives, then they'll go for a pve game which wont satisfy them pvpwise and the whole mmo indusrty will keep on making their money by raising hypes, getting the money on start and then going f2p with cash shop when people see that it isnt what they were hoping for.

Obviously aimed at Camelot Unchained :)  And a fair discussion. 

 

The irony in creating a game such as Mr Jacobs is preparing, is that the bar has fallen so LOW since 2004 (you know, THAT game...) that the concept of having different enemies to fight, seeing actual cultures and not some plastic carbon copy cut and paste race sample fighting over a flag or carrying a tooth, a huttball, or what have you....places his product above and beyond the rest - if we are discussing an mmorpg that contains: depth, variation in presentation, meaningful PvP (amazing how nearly every title thinks pvp = ESPORT)...and so forth.

 

So again, a fair discussion, and one that needs not to be implied to such a product as Camelot Unchained, for already she rears her head above the mediocrity of what lays far beneath her, despoiled, lackluster, and easily forgotten.

 

Secondly, the good news is that for those who are rolling their eyes at a proverbial DAoC 2 - feel free to peruse content more to your liking.  There are a number of fun games out there that include all sorts of effects.  You don't have to worry about the complexity of different races and cultures that actually drive the lore deeply into the players mind when they first feel the rush of embarking on massive scale PvP where ala, Spike T.V.'s Deadliest Warrior, or Rome Total War, you will gain a sense of US vs Them vs Them - seeing an enemy that is different than you, and celebrating those differences by befouling their gods and crushing their banners underfoot. 

 

/salute

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6971

3/02/13 10:07:18 AM#53


Originally posted by seigard

They are my opinions as they come out of my mouth, I never said I researched all of these and I still dont think you need to research something to understand


In that case, the thread should have been titled:


Originally posted by seigard

People should stop to think..


  laokoko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1916

3/02/13 10:09:39 AM#54
Originally posted by seigard
Originally posted by laokoko

Maybe the OP should send a resume as a game designer. 

Let me put it this way, there is something called budget and techical issue.

Have youe ever wonder why warhammer only have 2 faction?  Ya it's called budget.

Camelot Unchain don't have that much budget to do everything.

You said mmorpg dont' need a wow killer and turned around say we need mmorpg to focus on many things.  Ya but that's what make wow great isn't it? it did focus on many thing.  And that's what mmorpg company is trying to match.

And going back to GW2.  In GW2, all the "condition build" is useless.  And the reason why?  Because bleed can't go over 25 stack.  And you know why bleed can't go over 25 stack?  ya budget.  As stupid as it sounds, half of the character build in GW2 is useless because of budget.

If you meant to tell me the game studio "is purposely" releasing bad product, let me rest assure you their not.  They tried.  They just didn't do good enough.

 

I never said they are intentionally creating shitty games, why the hell would they, they just start at something without the budget which you just mentioned, and suddenly you see fuck tons of games around that cand even make ONE good game if you combine their successful parts.

You dont need to be a game designer to talk about games

I still dont think there is a need for a wow killer, there could be a game better than wow but as long as the intentions are killing wow then they will be trying to beat wow not fulfill what players want

Also 25 stack because of budget? come on they release a game that is pretty successful but they cant make new skills or raise the stack ? That has nothing to do with that

And where you think the money come from?  Glow on trees?  Camelot Unchain is trying to make a mmorpg with a starting budget of like 5 million.

And if you don't think there is a need for wow killer, tell developer to stop spending hundred of million developing 1 game (cough cough swtor), that's the problem right?  those company spend way too much money, and they are delusional they can recover that much money.  The market isn't that big.  Only way to have that much subscriber is if your game also release in China, which is not always an easy thing to do.

You said there is no need for wow killer.  and camellot unchain is doing exactly that.  They focus on 1 specific audience.  And you stop complaiing.  That's kind of oxymoron. 

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2757

3/02/13 10:24:20 AM#55
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by BlitzVF
The invisible hand of the market will fix this, if it is indeed a problem.

 

 

And has been doing so. The non-success of TSW has all but brought FC down. TOR's failure was a large and expensive lesson to the whole industry to stop copying WoW, and to EA in particular. Cryptic was sold to another company, to avoid closure, because their "efforts" failed to keep Atari afloat behind several shallow MMOs that did not make the money. SOE has gone from industry leader (they were the big dog pre-WoW), to an irrelevant joke in the industry, behind several bad decisions, and multiple lackluster (and thus typical SOE) titles. So the market does work, just not always quickly.
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/02/13 10:46:32 AM#56
Originally posted by Burntvet
And has been doing so. The non-success of TSW has all but brought FC down. TOR's failure was a large and expensive lesson to the whole industry to stop copying WoW, and to EA in particular. Cryptic was sold to another company, to avoid closure, because their "efforts" failed to keep Atari afloat behind several shallow MMOs that did not make the money. SOE has gone from industry leader (they were the big dog pre-WoW), to an irrelevant joke in the industry, behind several bad decisions, and multiple lackluster and thus typical SOE) titles. So the market does work, just not always quickly.

Self-evident. The console crash of '83, gamers have been through this sort of nonsense many, many times before. And will again, the market corrects as necessary.

Some threads remind me of Macbeth: "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." This litany of impotent rage that we hear, every weekend without fail—why do you think gamers find it so fascinating?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  seigard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/10
Posts: 261

 
OP  3/02/13 12:07:06 PM#57
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by seigard

 

They are my opinions as they come out of my mouth, I never said I researched all of these and I still dont think you need to research something to understand


 

In that case, the thread should have been titled:

 


Originally posted by seigard

 

People should stop to think..


 

I dont see a point, just like I dont see one with any of your other posts

You are none constructive in this discussion, pretty much a troll

If you disagree, I respect that more than anything but if you bash for no reason you are not welcome on my topic

  nationalcity

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/31/04
Posts: 332

3/02/13 12:27:04 PM#58
Originally posted by Comaf
Originally posted by seigard

Everyone behind the creation of recent mmos should just think about the consequences of creating a half polished game.

They do nothing but raise the bar and our expectations will never be pleased by the dissapointment coming after hype.

For example gw2, they did a great job but pvp is meaningless and not fun so people will try to look for a game that will fulfill their needs of pvp and even if they find one they probably will have hard time adapting to the game as their expectations have been lifted by everything else gw2 did good. Every mmo company releases their games in a state where it doesnt fulfill what you could want from a ''complete'' mmo. This is the success of wow, they were there before the expectations were this high and most importantly they had a game which appeald to most of people just like a ''complete'' game would...

MMO genre doesnt need a wow killer, it needs a game that can focus on many things, no bullshit like camelot unchained that will only focus on rvr, guess what? people will be bored of rvr even if it is the best of genre and look for alternatives, then they'll go for a pve game which wont satisfy them pvpwise and the whole mmo indusrty will keep on making their money by raising hypes, getting the money on start and then going f2p with cash shop when people see that it isnt what they were hoping for.

Obviously aimed at Camelot Unchained :)  And a fair discussion. 

 

The irony in creating a game such as Mr Jacobs is preparing, is that the bar has fallen so LOW since 2004 (you know, THAT game...) that the concept of having different enemies to fight, seeing actual cultures and not some plastic carbon copy cut and paste race sample fighting over a flag or carrying a tooth, a huttball, or what have you....places his product above and beyond the rest - if we are discussing an mmorpg that contains: depth, variation in presentation, meaningful PvP (amazing how nearly every title thinks pvp = ESPORT)...and so forth.

 

So again, a fair discussion, and one that needs not to be implied to such a product as Camelot Unchained, for already she rears her head above the mediocrity of what lays far beneath her, despoiled, lackluster, and easily forgotten.

 

Secondly, the good news is that for those who are rolling their eyes at a proverbial DAoC 2 - feel free to peruse content more to your liking.  There are a number of fun games out there that include all sorts of effects.  You don't have to worry about the complexity of different races and cultures that actually drive the lore deeply into the players mind when they first feel the rush of embarking on massive scale PvP where ala, Spike T.V.'s Deadliest Warrior, or Rome Total War, you will gain a sense of US vs Them vs Them - seeing an enemy that is different than you, and celebrating those differences by befouling their gods and crushing their banners underfoot. 

 

/salute

Now, I disagree I don't see any appeal to CU considering there is no PVE at all and I'm sure plenty of others are with me on this...

 

Trying to say that it rises above these other games is just ridiculous.

I think he's gonna be sorry that he has no PVE aspects in this game. I think its gonna come back to bite him in the ass.

I know he constantly says hes not looking for huge sub numbers but I mean COME ON what company is not looking for huge numbers for there game?

People are in la la land if they think this game is gonna come anywhere close to millons subbing to it....

I'm not trying to bash it I'm glad for people that want nothing but RVR but I'm sick of people already acting like this is the next holy grail again (GW2 Anyone)...

This game is gonna be completely niche........

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