Originally posted by ozmono

I hear the game being called a wow clone (which I think is silly in the least) and more recently and probably slightly more accurately a daoc spiritual successor that only has elder scrolls lore and nothing else in common with the IP. Now rather than this crap spilling out into every other thread I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to it. What could (within reason please) Zenimax have done to be more faithful to the IP?

Allow freedom of choice and the ability for players to determine their own path to a much larger extend then is possible now. For instance: no faction lock for races, freedom to join one or more factions or none at all. Freedom to go where ever you want, no zone lockout.

Originally posted by Astraeis

 no faction lock for races, freedom to join one or more factions or none at all.

While i agree with freedom to not join any faction ... i must strongly disagree with being able to join any faction with any race .... In EP we already got one filthy elves ... i realy don't want to play with more of them. I think that factions in faction oriented MMO should be clearly defined. Maybe have really really hard way to change your faction so we see as few people as possible changing factions. They would execute you as spy anyway.

Originally posted by Iselin

You don't appease them.

Even the ones who can put their thoughts into coherent words instead of just raging, describe bizarre experiemental environments based mostly around importing the single player experience, adding co-op features and calling it an MMO. It's amateur hour.

There hasn't been one single idea posted in these forums by the disgruntled that is in any way better than what Zenimax has chosen to do. There's this misconception seen often at MMORPG.COM that MMOs should be developed by popularity polls or plebescites. This just demonstrates a profound ignorance and lack of appreciation for the skill that people whose profesion is game design, have.

Criticism is a totally risk-free exercize. You have no accountability to anyone; no one's livelyhood is threatened and there are no investors who need to see a return. The worst possible outcome is the ridicule from readers. Pretty easy to be experimental and grandiose with your ideas in that environment.

I'll choose the profesional's vision over the half-baked and sometimes just really dumb ideas that amateur critics have everytime... in every game. The whole concept of developers spending development time to appease a handful of loud malcontents implies participating in a side-process that would just take valuable time away from development.

Are there developers out there who ask fans what they should do next? Yup, sure are...and you should run away very fast in the opposite direction whenever you see someone use this transparent marketting ploy to try to make you feel you're co-developing the game with them. They're just after your cash... unless, of course, they're really dumb amateurs themselves and have no clue what to do next... running away works in that case too.

The problem has never been the specifics of the game design, it's the conceptual direction of the game itself that most TES fans take issue with. Zenimax have chosen to focus the game around three-faction PvP and sacrificed most of the fundamental features of the series in doing so. We now have pre-determined factions, faction-locked regions, separated classes, no housing... these things betray the series' original concept of freedom to explore and play as you wish.

Posting 'ideas' to solve the issue is pointless as the solution is obvious: scrap the three-faction PvP and make an actual online TES game instead of DAoC2 in a TES skin... of course they won't actually do that but disgruntled fans have a right to voice their disappointment in seeing a popular series bastardized in this way.

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Originally posted by evilastro

Most would be happy with nothing short of a multiplayer Skyrim with no restrictions. Unfortunately that doesn't make for a great MMO, and would result in a whole bunch of inconsistencies and balance issues. Essentially a mod for Skyrim that would be interesting for a single play. But that is what they want.

It's a MMO set in the ES world, not multiplayer Skyrim. There are many things that just don't work in a MMO that you can do in a single player RPG. But trying to tell the naysayers that is like hitting your head into a brick wall.

My problem with this argument is that there's a certain group of players and developers who belive that, because a game exists in the medium of an MMO, it requires the necessary trappings of the games which came before it. I'm not saying that ES:O is a direct copy of another game, even though it does heavily borrow from DAoC (which isn't a bad thing, really), but that they very well could have balanced and created a multiplayer game, in a massive setting, which didn't require faction zone locking, forced PvP in an enclosed area of the game (which isn't open world), story questing and phasing on a level that rivals specifically hub designed games, or UI elements that an industry has simply become comfortable with for a standard.

 

So, is my problem really specifically with ES:O, or with the genre itself? A little of both, I guess. These problems, and others like them, aren't entirely on the shoulders of Zenimax to fix, but it's disheartening to see such a great opportunity squandered.

I can see both sides of the open world thing, yes it is nice to be able to visit everywhere with one character you are attached to, however Zenimax is aiming to make a RvR focus, and letting the opposing factions freely wander your home region simply cheapens that scenario.

Could they have made a standard MMO with battleground PvP and free access to everywhere? Sure. But they have their own vision for the game and to make that cohesive there needs to be certain concessions.

In general I feel there is way too much entitlement from gamers these days. You either enjoy a game or you don't, getting emotionally attached to a game which obviously doesn't cater to your gaming preferences isn't particularly healthy.  

Originally posted by Alberel

Posting 'ideas' to solve the issue is pointless as the solution is obvious: scrap the three-faction PvP and make an actual online TES game instead of DAoC2 in a TES skin... of course they won't actually do that but disgruntled fans have a right to voice their disappointment in seeing a popular series bastardized in this way.

Yes, and not agreeing with that is fine too, and is just as pointless, but it is fun to exchange ideas.

Personally, if they found a way to turn Morrowind into an mmo I'd be interested. :)

I realise that's a big ask, but hey, a man can dream.

Originally posted by sapphen

If they made the mega-server create instances with different rule-sets and then let us switch between these instances on a persistant character.

Originally posted by Iselin

In other words, you want to server hop...yes, this is what builds strong communities...not.

No, I'm not talking about switching between Cyrodiil campaigns.  The mega-server currently creates and moves people around different instances of the same area.  So if your friend is playing then you could join his instance.  In other words there is no servers to hop between.

Originally posted by sapphen

WPVP Instances

So if we're in the mood for wPvP then we could switch to a wPVP instance and quest in a world with enemy players.  This would also be a neat replacement for battleground by allowing players to queue for invasions.  Each faction would have hidden camps in other territories and you would start there, explore another faction territory and fight enemy players.

Originally posted by Iselin
Aka... PVP-a-la-WOW. The worst PVP ever done in an MMO. You really must have WOW stuck in your mind since you randomly threw in ideas about BGs and queues in there also.

World PvP is not a-la WoW.  I don't want battlegrounds but I do think organized open world PvP would be a respectiable subsitution.

Originally posted by sapphen

Explorer Instances

If we're in the mood to explore then we could switch to an explorer instance in which faction-based NPCs are unresponsive (as well as vendors and quest NPCs).  You can go anywhere, even Cyrodiil (would be awesome for scouting), in a non-combat enviroment and explore with players from all factions.  Althought the beasts and other faction-less mobs will be hostile, I think they should scale to player's level and not drop loot or give XP... they could be better ways to do this but the main focus should be exploration.

Originally posted by Iselin

Sounds like a cheater's wet dream. Have you ever even played 2 or 3 faction PVP anywhere or just solo ganked? "Scouting" lol.

There is no PvP in explorer mode... although I would welcome a manual FFA or Faction wPvP flagging system while exploring.

Originally posted by sapphen

FPV only Cyrodiil Campaigns

I would also like (in the future) for arms and weapons to be added in FPV and then have FPV only Cyrodiil campiagns for players who like this pov.

Originally posted by Iselin

 The old immersive FPV is in the single player game and it should be here too argument... I hope you get your wish and immerse yourself in that view exclusively... and then I'll make sure to skill-up on quadruple damage backstab skills.

Why shouldn't we ask for FPV, the series is known for it.  Anyways, that's why I suggested a FPV only Cyrodiil campaign.  That way FPV can play together and not worry about TPV advantages.  It would be a nice touch to remember and respect people who like that PoV.

Originally posted by sapphen

Private Instances

On top of all of this I also feel that they should give all subscribers/buyers their very own instance of ESO.  It would be exactly the same as the official game but will have some perks.  Lets say you finish a questline in a town, then afterwards you would have the option to switch to your private instance and own a house.  This private instance would be like a SP version of the game in which you can change the world BUT the coolest part is you can invite others to join you.  Market your instance and you can have up to 2000 other players in your world.

Originally posted by Iselin
And they should also give subscribers the servers and bandwidth to host their own unique Wayne's World TESO... a couple of thousand dollars a month should be enough to do your vanity shard.

I figured a subscription fee would warrent some bandwidth.  I was actually suprised to see that a private server type thing is becoming popular and we may see something like this in an upcoming MMO.  The Private Server would be a great way to give players that SP/Co-op TES feel, allow housing and developer made mods.  It could also be used as a tool for guilds for leveling alts or foster guild bonds.

Originally posted by Iselin

 In short. No thanks I'll pass on your amateur hour ideas and go with what the professional developers are doing.

LOL, you must be trying to hurt my feelings.  Granted these ideas are pretty raw but I'm only one man.  You must have high expections to think a forum poster (without a team of designers) would have professional grade ideas.  I was asked what would please me and I answered.   You can insult me all you want but it means nothing.

Originally posted by Alberel

Originally posted by Iselin

You don't appease them.

Even the ones who can put their thoughts into coherent words instead of just raging, describe bizarre experiemental environments based mostly around importing the single player experience, adding co-op features and calling it an MMO. It's amateur hour.

There hasn't been one single idea posted in these forums by the disgruntled that is in any way better than what Zenimax has chosen to do. There's this misconception seen often at MMORPG.COM that MMOs should be developed by popularity polls or plebescites. This just demonstrates a profound ignorance and lack of appreciation for the skill that people whose profesion is game design, have.

Criticism is a totally risk-free exercize. You have no accountability to anyone; no one's livelyhood is threatened and there are no investors who need to see a return. The worst possible outcome is the ridicule from readers. Pretty easy to be experimental and grandiose with your ideas in that environment.

I'll choose the profesional's vision over the half-baked and sometimes just really dumb ideas that amateur critics have everytime... in every game. The whole concept of developers spending development time to appease a handful of loud malcontents implies participating in a side-process that would just take valuable time away from development.

Are there developers out there who ask fans what they should do next? Yup, sure are...and you should run away very fast in the opposite direction whenever you see someone use this transparent marketting ploy to try to make you feel you're co-developing the game with them. They're just after your cash... unless, of course, they're really dumb amateurs themselves and have no clue what to do next... running away works in that case too.

The problem has never been the specifics of the game design, it's the conceptual direction of the game itself that most TES fans take issue with. Zenimax have chosen to focus the game around three-faction PvP and sacrificed most of the fundamental features of the series in doing so. We now have pre-determined factions, faction-locked regions, separated classes, no housing... these things betray the series' original concept of freedom to explore and play as you wish.

Posting 'ideas' to solve the issue is pointless as the solution is obvious: scrap the three-faction PvP and make an actual online TES game instead of DAoC2 in a TES skin... of course they won't actually do that but disgruntled fans have a right to voice their disappointment in seeing a popular series bastardized in this way.

I agree with you that people have every right to voice their opinions. It's the implied concept that the developers should change course and do something to appease them that I have trouble with.

I have been a fan fo the TES series and have played the heck out of every one of them since Arena, At the same time I have usually had an MMO going on the side as well (with Skyrim it was SWTOR...talk about contrast lol.) I like both environments: the great freedom possible in single player games and the more managed style of MMOs...some are better than others but I don't expect to see my single player features in an MMO any more than I expect to be able to see my FIFA features to play soccer with an enemy's decapitated head in a single player RPG.

The "conceptual direction" as you call it, is a very important core feature of design. Design is not just the nuts and bolts of which 3D engine to use or who to hire for voiceovers. Zenimax has made their choices and neither I nor you nor anyone else has any clue yet how the whole TESO game experience will feel.

I think one of the problems that is in part responsible for the over-heated rhetoric in this forum is that TES has always been the most sandbox-like of the single player RPG series so fans assumed that a TES MMO would also be a sandbox. It isn't one. It's a hybrid that leans heavily in the themepark's direction. This is a choice Zenimax made knowing full well what the TES franchise is all about.

Why did they make that choice? Well, one reason may be that MMO players only say they love sandboxes but they have never put their money where their mouth is. Other than Eve, not many people in 2013 are paying to play sandbox MMOs. We get excited about their announcements, follow their development with great interest, participate in their forums...and then we don't buy them.

There's always a "next great" golden sandbox child on the horizon--currently that would be Archeage and  The Repopulation for me--and I'm just as hopeful for those to be the sandbox breakthrough as everyone else. But that's us, the hardcore MMO consumers who play a lot.

Zenimax chose to go for more mainstream mass appeal as part of their design decission. If they hadn't, Darkfal would have been the end result--complete with FPV and targetting, housing, skill leveling, etc. Maybe they noticed that very few people play DF... IDK.

I've played and enjoyed sandboxes and themeparks and have no particular bias when it comes to them--both types have pluses and minuses. I don't see Zenimax' choice as a "betrayal" a "bastardization" or any other melodramatic term you want to throw at it. It IS an interesting decision from those who know TES best, to say the least. But it may be a good one. I'll reserve judgement until after I play the damn thing (see my post with beta info elsewhere.)

I'm easy. Release a game that isn't a bug ridden mess and I'll give it a shot. While I may have become accustomed to horrendous quality control in my ES titles, that doesn't mean I like it, or am willing to pay a  sub for it.

Also sub fee, have a sub fee. While we're at it, lifelike npcs with more than 3 lines of dialogue to choose from.

 Getting into the weirder end, I'd like solo or small group randomly generated exploration dungeons/forts/cave systems which one must find a la scanning down sites in eve or some other mechanic even just by stumbling accross them, anything which allows variable placement for them. Hmmm, also huge-ass non- instanced dungeons riddled with passages where one party may run accross another while exploring and share map info, whatevs.

Make torches MORE necessary to see. i.e. if you're underground with no torch or alteration caster, make dark really dark, not kind of like starlight.

So I'm not easy, but if the launch is smooth and lacks bug upon bug, i'll still likely give it a shot.

Originally posted by Darkcrystal

The issue today is gamers will find any way to cry like little girls, they want the DEVS to make the game for them and only them, so how do you make everyone happy? You don't, you make the game that you your self would play, not what a bunch of whiners want, as I said people like to bash indies, well guess what most indies make games they would want to play, not like some of these AAA companys were all there care about is money, so were is the win here for DEVS, gamers find anything they can to complain about.

 

 

I became a DEV because I didn't like what I seen anymore, back in the day I liked what I seen, today I don't , but now I see why DEVS are all over the place its because of the gamers with all the whining, DEVS try and make everyone happy, well its NOT going to work!!  They need to go with what they know they have the experince, not all these people whining people.

 

I laugh at this comment to, because we don't even know half of what the mechanics are and already they are complaining? I rest my case.

The issue today is gamers will be any crap. Thats why market is full of medicority.

---

Originally posted by gimmesome
So, what is the problem with TESO then?   Well, the Elder Scrolls series was never meant to be a pvp slugfest.   PVP was never part of the approach in Elder Scrolls games.    So, the choice to wrap the online iteration of this series around the 'perfect' pvp infrastructure seems kind of unnatural, especially considering how much of the fundamental aspects of the Elder Scrolls series had to be changed or removed completely in order for the game to fit in to this 3 faction ruleset.

---

What would appease me? Ditch PvP and make an actual Elder Scrolls Game.

Originally posted by ozmono

I just realized I asked two seperate questions. This was not my intention although I am happy to discuss both in this thread. The title of the thread asks what would appease disgruntled Elder Scrolls fans and based on your post I guess you are disgruntled and are explaining what would appease you and that is fine. My post however asks what could Zenimax have done within reason to be more faithful to the IP and this is not addressed in your post which is also fine.

Now my intention of this thread was to create a sort of hybrid of the title question and the one I make in my post. I was primarily interested in knowing what Zenimax would have had  to do to in order to be deemed as being faithful to the IP in a MMO space and within reason. I am still more interested in this than either of my two original questions seperately but I am happy to explore them however they come.

Thanks for your response.

These are few things I think Zeni could've done different to be more faithful to the IP;

1. I would've kept the 3 faction system but made them more like houses.  The world wouldn't be at war, but in disorder.  There would be rebellion groups within areas that oppose the area's faction.  You could join these but they wouldn't tie into the larger scale war - although you will not be able to represent a faction in RvR if you are a member of their rebellion group.  There may also be open world scenarios that put faction players against a group of rebellion players.
2. Most quests will be open for everyone and at any level.  There would be 3 main storyline quests within the 3 different factions.  You start off neutral and encouraged to join your starting area faction but you can travel to other areas, gain trust through quests and then join another faction.
3. RvR wouldn't take place only in Cyrodiil but all over the place mixed in within the world.  There would be huge fight in the center of Cyrodiil but the outer edges would also be PvE.  The RvR areas mixed in the world would also be respectfully large and would also effect resources of other areas.
4. There would be a wPvP flagging system in which you could flag for FFA or Faction-based PvP.  While flagged for wPvP mobs would have a chance to drop vendor gems (see pick-pocket section below).  If you have not joined a faction then you can only flag for FFA wPvP.  You can choose to represent a faction in the RvR areas but you will not gain full rewards until you officially join a faction.
5. There would be an ability bar but it would be more like switching weapons/spells or using items.  For instance you could have a sword and shield on the first slot and dual wield fireball on the second slot. You would switch to the armaments and then use the mouse buttons to attack.
6. I would add more umpf to power hits.  They would still be executed by holding the mouse button and using a direction but they would have more of a special ability appearance.  They would have other effects like snare, dots, cc, etc.  This would be how you use abilities.
7. It would be FPV based (w/arms and weapons) but it also would have a solid TPV comparable to MMOs.  TPV would have a 'fog of war' view limited to FPV but this would also tie heavily into the stealth system.
8. Stealth system wouldn't be totally invisible.  At a long range distance you would be invisible while in stealth but when you get close you must stay out of their line of sight (which would be compared to FPV even while in TPV).
9. There would be a pickpocket system.  While questing, there would be a chance for enemies to drop vendor gems if you are flagged for wPvP.  These would be worth a nice amount at a vendor and can be stolen from you by other players.
10. There would be a dynamic level system.  As you level you have more abilities and many mobs become easier.  The world would be designed so you could go into different areas and complete quests at most levels.
11. Instead of an Emperor system, the highest ranked players from each faction gets their own castle.  The castle has 20 different rooms in which they could lend out to their friends and guildies.
12. The class system would be more like Oblivion mixed with their current MMO-est class system.  You would choose a star sign that would dictate you initial stats.  In order to 'become' a class you must find a NPC teacher, do quests to gain favor and you learn abilities of that class.  You could remain class-less and have a standard set of melee, archery and magic abilities or you can mix and match abilities from other 'classes' you learn.

Originally posted by walltar

Originally posted by Astraeis

 no faction lock for races, freedom to join one or more factions or none at all.

While i agree with freedom to not join any faction ... i must strongly disagree with being able to join any faction with any race .... In EP we already got one filthy elves ... i realy don't want to play with more of them. I think that factions in faction oriented MMO should be clearly defined. Maybe have really really hard way to change your faction so we see as few people as possible changing factions. They would execute you as spy anyway.

And again this comes up.  DO that and you turn the game into a WoW clone.  There is no debating it, it is the exact style of MMO that has been mass produced for the last 8 years. 

In short, you either make it a WoW clone or you innovate on the core systems of an Elder Scrolls game and put it in an MMO skin which has rarely been done.  I'll take my chances with ZOS's version over WoW clone# 7410.

Originally posted by Iselin

I agree with you that people have every right to voice their opinions. It's the implied concept that the developers should change course and do something to appease them that I have trouble with.

I have been a fan fo the TES series and have played the heck out of every one of them since Arena, At the same time I have usually had an MMO going on the side as well (with Skyrim it was SWTOR...talk about contrast lol.) I like both environments: the great freedom possible in single player games and the more managed style of MMOs...some are better than others but I don't expect to see my single player features in an MMO any more than I expect to be able to see my FIFA features to play soccer with an enemy's decapitated head in a single player RPG.

The "conceptual direction" as you call it, is a very important core feature of design. Design is not just the nuts and bolts of which 3D engine to use or who to hire for voiceovers. Zenimax has made their choices and neither I nor you nor anyone else has any clue yet how the whole TESO game experience will feel.

I think one of the problems that is in part responsible for the over-heated rhetoric in this forum is that TES has always been the most sandbox-like of the single player RPG series so fans assumed that a TES MMO would also be a sandbox. It isn't one. It's a hybrid that leans heavily in the themepark's direction. This is a choice Zenimax made knowing full well what the TES franchise is all about.

Why did they make that choice? Well, one reason may be that MMO players only say they love sandboxes but they have never put their money where their mouth is. Other than Eve, not many people in 2013 are paying to play sandbox MMOs. We get excited about their announcements, follow their development with great interest, participate in their forums...and then we don't buy them.

There's always a "next great" golden sandbox child on the horizon--currently that would be Archeage and  The Repopulation for me--and I'm just as hopeful for those to be the sandbox breakthrough as everyone else. But that's us, the hardcore MMO consumers who play a lot.

Zenimax chose to go for more mainstream mass appeal as part of their design decission. If they hadn't, Darkfal would have been the end result--complete with FPV and targetting, housing, skill leveling, etc. Maybe they noticed that very few people play DF... IDK.

I've played and enjoyed sandboxes and themeparks and have no particular bias when it comes to them--both types have pluses and minuses. I don't see Zenimax' choice as a "betrayal" a "bastardization" or any other melodramatic term you want to throw at it. It IS an interesting decision from those who know TES best, to say the least. But it may be a good one. I'll reserve judgement until after I play the damn thing (see my post with beta info elsewhere.)

TES games have never been pure sandbox games. They all had story-lines that where quest-driven. However, what defines a TES game according to Bethesda is the ability to go to that mountain top you see in the distance. This gives you the freedom to play a TES game as a sandbox game.

I do understand why Zenimax would not opt to make a sandbox game. But that does not mean they needed to make decisions that would hurt the central characteristic of the Elder Scrolls IP. I do not understand why they made that decision, while they could have gone in many other directions that would not result in faction and zone locking, but yet they did. Evil tongues say it was just them being lazy and/or still being in love with the DaoC model.

Maybe, I don't know, but I see reason to be hesitant for TES fans to embrace TESO.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

---

Originally posted by gimmesome
So, what is the problem with TESO then?   Well, the Elder Scrolls series was never meant to be a pvp slugfest.   PVP was never part of the approach in Elder Scrolls games.    So, the choice to wrap the online iteration of this series around the 'perfect' pvp infrastructure seems kind of unnatural, especially considering how much of the fundamental aspects of the Elder Scrolls series had to be changed or removed completely in order for the game to fit in to this 3 faction ruleset.

---

This right here. I am forced from the start to be in some mythical "faction" that does not fit the lore of the game just because of PvP.

 

What would appease me? Ditch PvP and make an actual Elder Scrolls Game.

You realise that it never had PvP as a focus because it was single player.  This is a MMO.  PvP is pretty much the ultimate player interaction, and gives far more replayability.  If you want solid PvE you are better off waiting for the next single player ES.

Things that are fundamental to single player games, are not fundamental to MMOs, and vice versa. If Street Fighter ever became a MMO, I would have to give it some breathing space to adapt, rather than expecting to play it like the 2D fighter. The same applies to single player RPGs becoming MMOs, you can't expect them to be identical because they just don't work the same way.

The lore behind the factions and war has been explained.  This isn't set in the same era as the single player ES games.

Everything always comes down to People's Opinions when your dealing with people. 

And Basically this is my Opinion being added to this thread.

As for What would have Appeased the Elder Scrolls Fans? Actually Making Elder Scrolls into a MMO using The Elder Scrolls Ideas incorporated into a MMO(changes would need to be made for Balance Reasons Of Course/making sure nothings abused etc etc.) however TES:O Dev's Decided that They will use every other MMO's Ideas and Incorporate those into a Elder Scrolls Theme game and Cut out Many of The Elder Scrolls Games Defining features.

Basically from my Standpoint it looks like TES:O Dev's are making their decisions based on the fact that its Easy cash/crazy safe business standpoint Using a TES IP + DAOC Ideas / Design in the same game. Rather then Take the Risk of actually Making a More Unique MMO Experience that many probably have never experienced. however I doubt the Game with its current designs will have Success Long Term but only time will really tell if that statement is true.

Originally posted by Astraeis

 

TES games have never been pure sandbox games. They all had story-lines that where quest-driven. However, what defines a TES game according to Bethesda is the ability to go to that mountain top you see in the distance. This gives you the freedom to play a TES game as a sandbox game.

I do understand why Zenimax would not opt to make a sandbox game. But that does not mean they needed to make decisions that would hurt the central characteristic of the Elder Scrolls IP. I do not understand why they made that decision, while they could have gone in many other directions that would not result in faction and zone locking, but yet they did. Evil tongues say it was just them being lazy and/or still being in love with the DaoC model.

Maybe, I don't know, but I see reason to be hesitant for TES fans to embrace TESO.

Hmm... if you don't consider TES games sandbox you have a very, very strict idea of no developer guidance via quests, stories or whatever. Does a game like that even exist other than Minecraft?

TES games have no classes, have housing, in-depth crafting and although the world is alive with many different story arcs, no one tells you which must be done first or next. Says sandbox to me.

As to go anywhere you can see... yeah you can go anywhere they chose to show you and confine that particualr episode to. All of them tiny portions compared to the "limiting" half we have access to (half = your faction quarter plus the Cyrodil quarter) in the MMO.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Astraeis

 

TES games have never been pure sandbox games. They all had story-lines that where quest-driven. However, what defines a TES game according to Bethesda is the ability to go to that mountain top you see in the distance. This gives you the freedom to play a TES game as a sandbox game.

I do understand why Zenimax would not opt to make a sandbox game. But that does not mean they needed to make decisions that would hurt the central characteristic of the Elder Scrolls IP. I do not understand why they made that decision, while they could have gone in many other directions that would not result in faction and zone locking, but yet they did. Evil tongues say it was just them being lazy and/or still being in love with the DaoC model.

Maybe, I don't know, but I see reason to be hesitant for TES fans to embrace TESO.

Hmm... if you don't consider TES games sandbox you have a very, very strict idea of no developer guidance via quests, stories or whatever. Does a game like that even exist other than Minecraft?

TES games have no classes, have housing, in-depth crafting and although the world is alive with many different story arcs, no one tells you which must be done first or next. Says sandbox to me.

As to go anywhere you can see... yeah you can go anywhere they chose to show you and confine that particualr episode to. All of them tiny portions compared to the "limiting" half we have access to (half = your faction quarter plus the Cyrodil quarter) in the MMO.

I think you missed the word pure. But maybe it will be a comfort to know I miss the point of your post if it is not confirming what I already said.

Originally posted by Astraeis

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Astraeis

 

TES games have never been pure sandbox games. They all had story-lines that where quest-driven. However, what defines a TES game according to Bethesda is the ability to go to that mountain top you see in the distance. This gives you the freedom to play a TES game as a sandbox game.

I do understand why Zenimax would not opt to make a sandbox game. But that does not mean they needed to make decisions that would hurt the central characteristic of the Elder Scrolls IP. I do not understand why they made that decision, while they could have gone in many other directions that would not result in faction and zone locking, but yet they did. Evil tongues say it was just them being lazy and/or still being in love with the DaoC model.

Maybe, I don't know, but I see reason to be hesitant for TES fans to embrace TESO.

Hmm... if you don't consider TES games sandbox you have a very, very strict idea of no developer guidance via quests, stories or whatever. Does a game like that even exist other than Minecraft?

TES games have no classes, have housing, in-depth crafting and although the world is alive with many different story arcs, no one tells you which must be done first or next. Says sandbox to me.

As to go anywhere you can see... yeah you can go anywhere they chose to show you and confine that particualr episode to. All of them tiny portions compared to the "limiting" half we have access to (half = your faction quarter plus the Cyrodil quarter) in the MMO.

I think you missed the word pure. But maybe it will be a comfort to know I miss the point of your post if it is not confirming what I already said.

I didn't miss it, I just ignored it because I don't know what a pure sandbox is...do you? Which is why I said "sandbox-like" in my description in the previous post before you replied saying it isn't a pure one...

So yeah, you're right we see what we want to see,

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Originally posted by evilastro

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky

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Originally posted by gimmesome
So, what is the problem with TESO then?   Well, the Elder Scrolls series was never meant to be a pvp slugfest.   PVP was never part of the approach in Elder Scrolls games.    So, the choice to wrap the online iteration of this series around the 'perfect' pvp infrastructure seems kind of unnatural, especially considering how much of the fundamental aspects of the Elder Scrolls series had to be changed or removed completely in order for the game to fit in to this 3 faction ruleset.

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This right here. I am forced from the start to be in some mythical "faction" that does not fit the lore of the game just because of PvP.

What would appease me? Ditch PvP and make an actual Elder Scrolls Game.

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You realise that it never had PvP as a focus because it was single player.  This is a MMO.  PvP is pretty much the ultimate player interaction, and gives far more replayability.  If you want solid PvE you are better off waiting for the next single player ES.

Things that are fundamental to single player games, are not fundamental to MMOs, and vice versa. If Street Fighter ever became a MMO, I would have to give it some breathing space to adapt, rather than expecting to play it like the 2D fighter. The same applies to single player RPGs becoming MMOs, you can't expect them to be identical because they just don't work the same way.

The lore behind the factions and war has been explained.  This isn't set in the same era as the single player ES games.

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PvP is what is causing all the strife with TES:O. Without PvP, there would be no locked out areas. Without PvP, class balancing would be a non-issue. PvP, in this case, seems to be taking away freedoms that TES players are used to in their games, not creating more freedoms.

I realize that most MMO players feel that PvP is, as you put it, "The ultimate player interaction", but for me, that interaction is grouping, being on the same team, being friendly, trading with each other, helping others out, not trying to knock each others' blocks off.

I am sure that this game will be very popular amongst MMO players. It seems that time after time, ZOS's decisions have been towards that goal. I never had any inkling to play an MMO heavily based on realm vs realm PvP, especially DAoC. If ZOS wants to do that aspect right, they must focus most of their attention on it. Otherwise, it falls short.