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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Ideas for Stealth Mechanics

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33 posts found
  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

 
OP  3/01/13 4:15:15 PM#1

Assuming Stealth will be in the game, at least in some way, what would your suggestions for the Stealth Mechanics be?

 

Perhaps a mechanic like the following:

-"Scout" archetypes could have increased foot speed while visible (not a group effect) in order to reach enemy territory and actually scout enemy forces.

(OR If certain terrain slows movement of basic classes, "Scout" archetypes can move freely through it (rather than having enhanced movement.))

-"Scout" archetypes could camouflage themselves after standing still for some amount of time (perhaps several seconds) and remain stealthed until they moved.  Maybe their stealth actually increases over time(?)

 

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/01/13 4:24:34 PM#2
Copy daoc ... but lower the huge initial damage a bit so people arn't one or two or three shot.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Raagnarz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/12
Posts: 184

3/01/13 4:59:55 PM#3

Gut it and make it like shadowbane or don't put it in at all. If it was like it was in daoc or numerous other games I played, its a crutch for those that need an advantage. Shadowbane was the only game I've ever played with stealth that it was strategic. You had to be good to be a thief or assasin and especially a scout. The scouts in that game did next to no damage, but could track everyone regardless of stealth and could press a button to pop all stealthers in an aoe radius. That lead to cat and mouse fights. On my initial server I knew the name of every single scout worth a shit and they got paid for any non guild services. Good ones were few and far between. Conversely I knew maybe 1 or 2 assasin/thief on whatever server I played. Thats because the majority had the usual crutch mentality/skills and got hunted and destroyed by good scouts and groups. The few that were good knew how to deceive, play cat and mouse with the scout if you will.

 

The bottom line unless there are hard, and I do mean HARD, counters to stealth it will be overpowered. I'm talking so hard that most people won't want to role them. Those that do and stick it out will be server/realm known with good reason. IMO thats the way stealth should be.

  dynamicipftw

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/12
Posts: 216

3/01/13 5:06:46 PM#4

Here's an idea: 

Perma-stealth that after 30 sec drains your life slowly until you reach 50% hp. When you destealth there is a 30 sec cooldown.  That means you can use perma-stealth to get away from full groups/zergs but you can't use it offensively against other stealthers/soloers. Stealth should give you a small speed boost though so you can stop groups from messing with you.

 

Although perma-stealth as it was done in DAoC is fine as well. And no PA doesn't need a nerf :)

  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

3/01/13 5:19:42 PM#5
A) Use Stamina for magic and syles/abilities alike.

B) Call stealth "Invisibility" make it drain Stamina over time. That way sustained damage after destealthing is reduced in proportion to the time spent stealthed.

C) Craft rogue class lore to reflect the fact that they have invisibility.

D) Realize that maybe stealth doesn't work within the framework of your design model and let the niche-picking commence, which is inevitable anyway.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Kvalandur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/13
Posts: 31

3/01/13 7:27:07 PM#6
 They could make stealth roll vs. Dex with any bonuses to enter, then periodically reroll to see if you remain stealthed. Make the characters location in the world matter giving bonuses to stealth if the thief is in shadow, or among trees, next to a building etc..  And if they are out in the open, give then negatives to their stealth roll.
  Stiler

Elite Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 592

3/01/13 8:55:34 PM#7

If stealth is in the game it needs to be counterable and have limits, no pop invis and run around at your leisure like most mmo's.

 

I really would love to see stealth treated more like it is in single player games, like the Thief series, Metal Gear Solid or Splinter cell. Where stealthy characters could use the environment more, where darkness was a friend, using shadows, hiding in logical places, etc.

It'd be sweet if stealth players could climb trees and use them to "hide" in, or perhaps have little piles of brush/foilage which certain classes can utilize to hide in, this would make soooooooo much more logical sense then the usual "pop invis and run around" style.

Also have a type of distraction tools, like smoke bombs, if they are caught they can pop it and then try to flee.

Bascially I'd just like to see stealth classes have to play well....stealthly, like in the games I mentioned. That "felt" good to sneak around in those games, it made sense, and it worked well. Using shadows, making as little noise as possible, etc.

 

However if it does go the more traditional "invis" route, here are a few idea's :

 

1. Make stealth distance based. Imagine for example a "bubble" around the stealthed person, anyone outside of this "detection" range doens't see them, but once someone is close enough they can be seen. This would allow for scouts to scout around and people not to see them from a distance, however if they get close to someone they are spotted.

2. Make stealth movement based. Like <a data-cke-saved-href="http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/Tumblebutz" href="http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/Tumblebutz" title="View information about Tumblebutz" suhlink"="">Tumblebutz mentioned, if they are still, they are stealthed, but once they move around they become unstealthed.

3. Have anti-stealth mechanics for some other classes, such as scouts vs assassin's, you could have scouts with ian ability to "detect" hidding players and such at a longer distance then other classes.

  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

3/01/13 9:21:10 PM#8

Make stealth real realm utility like Shadowbane scout. Fast runner, long range track, bow or melee(really bad damage), stealth. would actually play a stealth class like that. You would die if you attack anyone 1on1 but can provide crucial inteligence to your realm. Enemy numbers, priority targets etc. Also Bow should have some group friendly debuffs and mele scouts would kill ranged scouts while being easy prety for everyone else.

 

Maybe Viking scout will be a melee class, Arturian a bow, and hibs get some magical middle ground scout.

 

 

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

3/01/13 10:35:07 PM#9
Like I said in the other thread, I think if they're going to have stealth, but don't want assassins go with something like a minstril from daoc. Terrible stealth (compared to everything else) that had a large movement speed penalty (no mos), easily detected when you're close to them, and no alpha strikes from stealth at all. That said, i'd love to have assassins... since honestly in daoc they were terrible in groups and not iwin in a 1v1 (later in the game's life). At the same time, I won't cry if they want to avoid alpha strikes from stealth... it just means that the stealther needs to be very useful in a group other than scout bot. This nonsense about having little damage and bad utility just for stealth is terrible, just don't put stealth in if you're going to make them trash. Hard counters to stealth are always a good thing though.
  Outis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/07/07
Posts: 100

3/01/13 10:41:36 PM#10
Originally posted by Kvalandur
 They could make stealth roll vs. Dex with any bonuses to enter, then periodically reroll to see if you remain stealthed. Make the characters location in the world matter giving bonuses to stealth if the thief is in shadow, or among trees, next to a building etc..  And if they are out in the open, give then negatives to their stealth roll.

+1

  kraiden

Staff Writer

Joined: 10/16/05
Posts: 641

The Original Hater

3/01/13 11:06:36 PM#11

stealth?

How about we have stealth like it was in the BEGINNING beta phase of warhammer online

 

if you are directly in front of a persons cone of view you will be seen...

stealth drains ENdurance/action points per sec so its not permanant.

PERIOD.

let stealth be something you use in combat to close the gap.

 

 

no perma invisibility

I am ok with archer classes being able to spec high in a tree for "stealth while standing still"

but no way am I down for perma invisibility and stealth zergs and the like. no wa

  Vargur

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/10
Posts: 142

3/02/13 1:23:01 AM#12

It is important to distinguish stealth from opening damage. I don't think it was stealth that annoyed non-stealthers, it was the high initial damage output.

As an unbuffed bow hunter I died frequently and quickly to Perf.Artery openings, and even when I respecced to sword-melee and got my own buffbot it hurt to take that first stab in the face, so I am sympathetic to those who get/got anooyed with stealthers. On the same note, I got annoyed with hib-casters who stun-nuked me to death. If my stun-immunity had lasted as long as my Purge downtime, it would be ok, but I got around it regardless and it is another discussion.

I never played Shadowbane, so I am not familiar with the class details there, but it does sound like it has some intriguing aspects to it. What needs to be addressed is how to reward Shadowbane-type scouts for participating in RvR. DAoC initially gave out RPs strictly based upon damage and kills. It evolved to reward participation in sieges, but those rewards were very limited compared to damage/kill RPs given.

My stealther play-style was mostly to roam and scout for Midgard. Many nights I never received a single RP, but I didn't mind as long as Midgard dominated. I also felt an obligation to participate in sieges, and enjoyed those as well. And the question that rises is what role a Shadowbane-type scout will fill during sieges, if it has no/little damage to offer?

Is it possible to create some sort of forward observer abilities that rewards these scouts for "picking high-value targets" for realm mates? Is the game designed to give them other opportunities, and reward them for their efforts?

  Stiler

Elite Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 592

3/02/13 3:09:12 AM#13

Perhaps scouts could influence the "maps" in the game? So a scout that sees enemies, can inform others of where enemies locations are, the direction of their movement etc.

Not real-time up to date movement but a delayed thing (so it would work more like an actual scout, and not  a "radar."

 

Where scouts can actually scout, find enemies, and then after so long that maps of their allies shows the last known positionof the enemy , direction they were heading (just like a little arrow or such that you'd expect to be marked ona map).

It would work based on only the time the scout had them in his vision, so say if a scout looks at an enemy, then turns around and leaves or such and the enemy decides to go in another direction, then it would not show that on the map (because the scout didn't see it).

Then whenever any enemies that the scout saw are killed/take damage, the scout gets rewarded for it, even if he himself didn't do all the damage or anything.

 

This would have to be balanced of course.

 

Perhaps limit it to scouts within your guild or gorup as well, so it's not like the scouts give out information to every single person rather, just people within their guild or gorup.

  meddyck

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1108

3/02/13 5:42:28 AM#14

I'm intrigued by the idea of making stealth work better or worse depending on the surrounding geography and time of day. You'd still want to be able to stealth in the open field during the day but your outline would be visible from a longer distance and you'd have a higher chance to have your stealth popped when a NPC or player passed by.

The most annoying thing about stealth in DAOC was that a stealther could kill somebody then re-stealth within seconds and get away. Having a longer re-stealth timer than in that game is a must.

I would want some class or two to be able to cast medium duration stealth revealing fields that would act like the Convoker ML ability in DAOC that I can't remember the name of. Perhaps there could also be crafted potions that increased anybody's ability to detect stealthers for a short time.

I am okay with stealthers having high damage attacks from stealth if they are balanced so that without using those attacks they have a very difficult time killing non-casters 1 on 1. I would prefer they don't have a stun as part of those attacks.

Also if stealthers are given high evasion to balance their light armor, it needs to be balanced so that they aren't unhittable by heavy melee using 2-handed weapons.

Do those things and I would be fine with stealth being perma-invisiblity like in DAOC.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  infii

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 9

3/02/13 6:46:19 AM#15

As I posted on another thread:

"I have one thing to add to the stealther topic:

Back in the day of DAoC there were fairly few stealth players compared to overall visible classes because, imo, stealth classes were a pain in the ass to level to 50 and fully equip them.

According to MJ's statements, new players in CU will be able to join RvR fairly quickly and they will be viable as well.

What do you think can be done to make playing an assassin harder than other classes to not let them overpopulate, as we don't have the PvE 'hurdle' now anymore?"

  meddyck

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1108

3/02/13 7:31:30 AM#16
Originally posted by infii

What do you think can be done to make playing an assassin harder than other classes to not let them overpopulate, as we don't have the PvE 'hurdle' now anymore?"

This has an easy answer although one that is hard to do in practice: class balance. Make the assassin good enough but not so good that you can smack your head against the keyboard playing one and still kill anybody. Then you'll get a reasonable number of them just like any class.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  Kvalandur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/13
Posts: 31

3/02/13 7:42:22 AM#17

Might be worth considering to split types of stealth based on classes. Like standard stealth (invis) for Thieves, disguise type stealth for Assassins and camouflage type stealth for Scout/Rangers?

 Just a thought really.

 I am solidly behind using terrain and what's around you to improve your chances at remaining undetected. Movement should also be considered. I like the time of day being a factor as well.  

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2085

joie de vivre

3/02/13 9:43:41 AM#18

As an old school stealther myself I always liked stealth requiring skill for me to pull off, it makes stealth much more exciting and rewarding. Here is a basic idea. While stealthed and moving you have a kinda transparent predator (not the one from dateline, the one Arnold punched) look but when you stop you go fully hidden? Or maybe just forget the whole fully hidden entirely?
The young players have been spoiled with their easy mode stealth. Back when I was rocking Ghost Recon on Xbox I was always a stealth player. I was known for sneaking up and pistol killing people (an insult if you were unskilled enough to get pistol shot in those days). I would kneel in trees, I would crawl behind things, I planned attacks, I waited, I struck. And thats in an FPS, which in my opinion, is a lot harder to hide in than an MMO. In DF I was back to my old stalking ways, and again, success despite having 0 trans stealth of any kind.
My point is, I was fully able to be stealthy with 0 transparency, so having even the predator like stealth is more than enough to be a good stealth class. Complet invisibility is simply OP and really takes away from the thrill of the hunt, and the thrill of the spot (if you on the other side of the stealth coin).

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  Benedikt

Tipster

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 1205

We live for the One, we die for the One.

3/02/13 9:51:05 AM#19

i think stealthing should be in but:

1. it should be hard to remind stealthed (e.g. you would have to stay in shadows of things, between them you would unstealth)

2. you should be hit by spells/projectiles/melee swings in your direction even if the "attacked" doesnt see you

3. aoe would always hit you (btw i think aoes (at least) should have "friendly fire") if you are in target area.

  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4546

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/02/13 9:54:05 AM#20

a nice stealth mechanic for pvp would be camouflage, not invisibility. A skill that lets the character blend with the environmet depending on the textures you are standing on or the wall / tree you are close to. A sustained skill so you can move around but  when you move your character would have a distorted transparency as you move on / near ground / wall textures. When you stand still the camo then fully kicks in and you basically become one with the ground (or wall), but still can be tracked if the player looks carefully. Not a 100% blend but good enough to trick players that dont pay attention to their environments.

 

EDIT: also like someone said before, in the shadows is also more effective the blending with nature camouflage :)

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

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