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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Subscription & F2P

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69 posts found
  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5048

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/01/13 11:13:41 AM#21
Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Aeonblades
 

As long as they have a sub option for those of us who have money and prefer quality, that is fine with me. It's the F2P's with no sub that are a bad idea.

that little part right there only shows ignorance. Indirectly (or rather directly i should say) saying people who prefer f2p automatically  dont have money is just ignorant. I do agree with the rest of your post. As long as the game has more options then its fine.

f2p is only a bad idea in the wrong hands, and that applies to p2p as well.
 

Would like to clarify, didn't mean this to come out that way but I see what you are saying. Not that people don't have the money in general, just those of us who do want to spend the money is what I should of said. Apologies.

so you think the option to pay in cash shop instead of a sub is for people who dont want to spend money? lol no sense at all..... But its ok, no need for apologies. You have your opinion. I have mine. Like you said before, as long as both options are there (and well managed i might add) then its fine.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  Aeonblades

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 1773

3/01/13 11:17:59 AM#22
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Aeonblades
 

As long as they have a sub option for those of us who have money and prefer quality, that is fine with me. It's the F2P's with no sub that are a bad idea.

that little part right there only shows ignorance. Indirectly (or rather directly i should say) saying people who prefer f2p automatically  dont have money is just ignorant. I do agree with the rest of your post. As long as the game has more options then its fine.

f2p is only a bad idea in the wrong hands, and that applies to p2p as well.
 

Would like to clarify, didn't mean this to come out that way but I see what you are saying. Not that people don't have the money in general, just those of us who do want to spend the money is what I should of said. Apologies.

so you think the option to pay in cash shop instead of a sub is for people who dont want to spend money? lol no sense at all..... But its ok, no need for apologies. You have your opinion. I have mine. Like you said before, as long as both options are there (and well managed i might add) then its fine.

Agreed the choice is what's important. As long as it's there and there is an option for most people. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they have a B2P option for most games (like gw2) soon where they charge you by optional content patches similar to how LotRO does theirs. That's the way consoles have been for a while now, and It's strange to me it hasn't spilled over completely into the PC market.

Currently Playing: ESO,FFXIV, various betas
Have played: You name it.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7120

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

3/01/13 12:06:08 PM#23
Originally posted by Torvaldr

I'm not renting temporary access to my games anymore.  That's the foundation of my move away from sub-locked games.  The money I spent on renting temporary access is basically flushed down the sewer until and unless I cough up more cash.  I don't find value in that payment model.

 

 

No, instead people are renting temporary inventory space, temporary mounts, and temporary buffs that make the game actually bearable to progress in.

 

And let's not even touch on the strong trend of making loot a paid for RNG gamble. Or the pay to achieve factor in buying progression (because in these games,developing your character, even visually, *is* a form of progression). Lets not talk about how they create super transient and non committed player bases that make it very hard to build half way decent communities (and give us ones that usually just end up as a toxic sludge of trolling).

 

Yeah, cash shops are awesome. The piecemeal breaking up of content to be sold to us for 10 times (or whatever) the price of an expack (which you could also actually, y'know, play) is a fantastic step forward for the consumer.

 

I find full on value in a sub that allows me to play as much as I like and access all the content in game according to my own achieving (and not the use of my CC).

 

'F2P' and cash shops have a horrible additional impact on core game design. They are a shady model that hides true cost and one that has an active interest in manipulating it's more gullible and vulnerable players to spend ever more. Folks need to think about the true price of it all before stopping at 'kewl, I saved £10 this month' (because, if they were truthfull, they probably didn't).

 
  Reizla

Elite Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 2982

MMORPGs are no longer about the mass multi-user anymore *sadly*

3/01/13 12:22:10 PM#24
Originally posted by rojo6934

when people say ¨you get what you pay for¨ jsut to bash F2P (and even B2P) mmos. I ask my self. As a cash shop supporter, if i pay more money than a subscriber in one month, why do i get less game than the subscriber? That ÿou get what yu pay for¨ phrase doesnt work very well there.... Its not about being able or unable to pay money for a game. Its about a commitment that not everyone agrees with. If i stop paying i cant play anymore with a subscription. And if i pay it i feel that i signed a contract and have to play every day until the contract ends.

I, and many others i know happily support games with cash shop as long as i can lift every limitation permanently through the cash shop. If im going to spend  a good chunk of money just to keep my character locked from content and cant even be competitive... no money to them. SWTOR is the worst case because of what i said. Do not force me to either subscribe or quit. I like the game, i like the cash shop, i do not like the sub,. At least sell me every limitation unlock in cash shop or my money goes somewhere else.

let the F2P hate begin in 3,2,1.....

 

Very well spoken. Both on the 'contract' called subscription and the F2P part.

Right now I'm playing World of Warcraft (60 day timecard) and I feel kinda forced to play because I have paid up front for the game. That while at times I totally do not feel like playing it at all and want to remove it from my harddrive. Okay, I'll level one toon to 90 (yeah, still none there) and then I might as well quit...

On the F2P part... I agree with the SWTOR remark on being forced to subscribe or be a 'lesser player'. Though I haven't touched SWTOR after it went F2P (nor did I really play it before that - 30 days from box only), I did get that same 'force to subscribe' feeling from EverQuest II. Once you have had a subscription there, droppeds lots of bah in your inventory and bank, you need to keep subscribing to keep access to them. The moment you quit subscribing all but a few bags (4 total iirc and that of over 30 you had when subscribed) are available. As long as $O€ is not allowing me to unlock bagslots for my character, I'm not touching it again, nor am I paying them an other dime. Much like you, my money goes elsewhere...

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  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4348

3/01/13 12:30:34 PM#25
Originally posted by Reizla


On the F2P part... I agree with the SWTOR remark on being forced to subscribe or be a 'lesser player'. Though I haven't touched SWTOR after it went F2P (nor did I really play it before that - 30 days from box only), I did get that same 'force to subscribe' feeling from EverQuest II. Once you have had a subscription there, droppeds lots of bah in your inventory and bank, you need to keep subscribing to keep access to them. The moment you quit subscribing all but a few bags (4 total iirc and that of over 30 you had when subscribed) are available. As long as $O€ is not allowing me to unlock bagslots for my character, I'm not touching it again, nor am I paying them an other dime. Much like you, my money goes elsewhere...

That type of game model most ppl call freemium and it's ( imo ) a weak attempt at cashing in on the f2p popularity while remaining a p2p game. I have no real issue with games that are desinged from the ground up to work with this model but in SWTORs case it's more a matter of EA not wanting to admit their game can't survive as a p2p sub game and still make them a profit.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Battlerock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/12/11
Posts: 731

3/01/13 12:41:13 PM#26
What works? Whats attractive? Thats all. Just when you think you got the right model for maximum money. For both sides consumer and producer, the GW2 model is the right model for all games.
  Squeak69

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 959

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

3/01/13 12:43:26 PM#27

oh boy here we go agian.

ok iv done this argument a dozen times so im gonna do the short version.

i dislike F2P

thats it,anything else i say will just be turned around to make me sounds stupid, no matter how i say it. its kinda like a mgaic trick.

now let the bashing and hypocricy continue

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  Ryowulf

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 667

3/01/13 1:01:15 PM#28
When's the last time a game was worth a sub?  Well you can get somebody to sub a game no matter how big a pile of crap it is.

The problem is when you spend tons of money on an mmo (most going for non-game play things like Ads & VO), a hand-full of loyal customers is not enough.

Unfortunately since the game spent more on dazzle than substance there is no player retention.

Also not all ftp is equal, SWtor is nothing but a money grab.  They do everything to try to get you to sub.  Tera, Aion on the other hand are amazingly cash free.

Finally there is choice, something that wasn't around much at the start of MMO's.  If you want to make money whether ptp, btp, or ftp you have to make a good game and be smart about your budget.
 
  Kitsunechii

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/12
Posts: 14

3/01/13 1:20:38 PM#29

People seem to confuse F2P and Pay2win... true, that has been the case with many F2P before, but more and more free mmos only put Vanity items in their cash shops. Well apart from the regular EXP boosts, but those doesn't really influence the other players.

And if im not mistaken there was an article here about the incredible numbers that the "F2P Comapnies" make.

 

I may be wrong about this but it seems that P2P games are ALMOST only played by hardcore elitist jerks... Reason being (from personal deduction) is that you won't get to experience the whole game as a casual player. And let's be honest, hardcore gamers are a minority.

The best model for all would be B2P... or perhaps a more customized subscription option like Dofus have with all from 1 week to 1 year. that way you can plan ahead and not lose as much money as you would with a strict monthly sub

  Theocritus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3605

3/01/13 2:51:52 PM#30
I agree with an earlier psot that said with p2p I cant play anymore once the payment stops....Also you feel more obligated to play when you are paying for it...With f2p we come and go as we please, take breaks whenever we feel like it, pay for the features we want, can sometimes purchase items we never could have obtained in game, etc......Years ago when we really had no other option, p2p was fine...I didn't like paying 15 bucks a month for EQ, WoW, or EQ2 but the free options back then were not very good......TOday though that is in the past...There are tons of free MMOs and we literally have a good selection of whatever kind of game you want.
  CrazKanuk

Elite Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 819

3/01/13 3:01:55 PM#31

I'm probably going to get laughed at, but I'd much rather see a model like SWTOR than WoW. 

 

I love WoW and played for years until just recently, and here's the reason why. There is ALWAYS, inevitably, a period between when an expansion is released and getting your final end-game content that you hate yourself for paying monthly. I just paid $60 for your content, got through it in, say, a month and now I've got to wait 6 more months ($90 more) before I get your end-game content? Awww hell no! 

 

That being said, I re-allocated my money over to SWTOR. I was playing F2P on there before that and I don't know what people are talking about here, whether it's ignorance or what, but I probably invested $10 in my main character in SWTOR before I subbed and it was well worth it. Now if I got to end game content, then I'd need to invest another..... meh, $20? But I mean that's a month away, right? So for 30 bux I get a toon that's decked out and all good, plus preferred so it's not AS hampered as the purely free play (which my kids play on and is fine). 

 

Only reason I subbed at all is that there is a 25% XP boost for subscribers, and why shouldn't there be? Contrary to people saying that they feel less valued, I feel more valued as a subscriber. Plus, I get comped some of this "market" currency each month which also increases the value of my subscription. So I just bank all that currency and once I've leveled all my toons to the level I want then I go back to F2P and I still have a ton of currency I can use to trick them out. So for a net cost of around $10 a month I get myself a 25% boost to leveling, plus rest experience, which makes it worth my time. If you're casual with it then don't spend a dime, you really don't have to just to enjoy the story, which is great. 

 

So I really don't know what all the griping is about SWTOR. I could point you at a dozen sites where I'm sure you could find a few dozen very free cookie-cutter MMOs that will offer you very little in the way of satisfaction or originality. 

 

I think that the moral here is really, subscription or F2P, doesn't matter, if you like a game and play it on a regular basis, then support it! 

 

Crazkanuk

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  Mishakai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/12
Posts: 106

3/01/13 3:08:22 PM#32

With me an F2P game is all about how you feel when you play it.

Does it feel like the developers want you to play their game, or does it feel like the developers want you to open your wallet.

I have noting against F2P games, it's really all in how they implement the not-free portion of it.

I tried the SWTOR F2P, and even though I pre-ordered and held a sub for close to a good year, all that garnered me in the long run was nothing more than someone who just downloaded the game could get for a $5 purchase in the cash shop.  It seemed like every other button I pressed the game was asking for my credit card number.  Even worse was how it seemed that the F2P UI features felt slapped on top of the game rather than integrated into it.

Compare that to the TERA F2P, another game I pre-ordered and held a sub for about 6 months.  I can do anything I want in that F2P version, and if I choose to sub again, the bonuses essentually amount to lower taxes for market transactions etc.

Guess which F2P game I wil be playing after work tonight?  I'll give you a hint.... BAM!

  nbtscan

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 418

3/01/13 3:34:11 PM#33
Originally posted by Kitsunechii

The best model for all would be B2P... or perhaps a more customized subscription option like Dofus have with all from 1 week to 1 year. that way you can plan ahead and not lose as much money as you would with a strict monthly sub

The problem I have with B2P games is that you're going to be limited in how often you get updates to the game since all the money put into the game was frontloaded.  I'd be curious to know just how much money a game such as GW2 makes monthly on microtransactions because that's the only thing that supports the game until they sell an expansion.

I like P2P games because I know that if the game is good enough to have a healthy subscription base, people will keep playing and money will keep getting funneled back into the game, allowing development to continue unhindered since the game company is able to continue paying their development team.  

I personally think F2P is something that appeals more to the younger generation - college students with limited income or kids still living with their parents.  This may be an overgeneralization since I'm sure there are older people who just aren't in a financial position, for whatever reason, to be able to play a P2P game.  I just get irked more than anything when people demand that a P2P game should have a F2P option.  If the game is able to sustain a healthy population with a P2P structure, why does it need F2P?  The game doesn't need an option for freeloaders if it's financially stable.  Give people a downloadable trial and if they like it they can subscribe.  If not, oh well.

I guess my dislike for F2P also stems from the practice of DLC in games.  I feel that if I buy a game and the content is on the disc, I shouldn't have to pay extra to unlock it.  If you develop brand new content for a game later down the road, then sure, I'm on board with that.  But it's ridiculous when you get these preorder bonuses from Gamestop or whatever for '0day DLC content' and the shit is already on the disc.

  Heretique

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/02/07
Posts: 955

Most of my posts get deleted.

3/01/13 7:43:20 PM#34

People will buy anything, that's why we're seeing F2P Cash Grabs, P2P Item Malls, and 20 DLC's 3 months into a new game.

FUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

Originally posted by salsa41
are you have problem ?

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

3/01/13 7:55:44 PM#35

I like either pricing model depending on how they are implemented. Mostly though, my decision for what games I play is based on how much I actually like the game itself and not it's pricing model. Is the game interesting to me? Does the game play well? Does it have what I'm looking for?

 

The one thing I really hate is a sub with a shop. Funcom was toying with the idea in TSW and later had to chage the model to B2P. Good move in my opinion, but I can't help but wonder what they were thinking when they released a Box + Sub + Shop game into the current MMORPG environment.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5511

3/01/13 10:43:43 PM#36
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Torvaldr

I'm not renting temporary access to my games anymore.  That's the foundation of my move away from sub-locked games.  The money I spent on renting temporary access is basically flushed down the sewer until and unless I cough up more cash.  I don't find value in that payment model.

No, instead people are renting temporary inventory space, temporary mounts, and temporary buffs that make the game actually bearable to progress in.

And let's not even touch on the strong trend of making loot a paid for RNG gamble. Or the pay to achieve factor in buying progression (because in these games,developing your character, even visually, *is* a form of progression). Lets not talk about how they create super transient and non committed player bases that make it very hard to build half way decent communities (and give us ones that usually just end up as a toxic sludge of trolling).

Yeah, cash shops are awesome. The piecemeal breaking up of content to be sold to us for 10 times (or whatever) the price of an expack (which you could also actually, y'know, play) is a fantastic step forward for the consumer.

I find full on value in a sub that allows me to play as much as I like and access all the content in game according to my own achieving (and not the use of my CC).

'F2P' and cash shops have a horrible additional impact on core game design. They are a shady model that hides true cost and one that has an active interest in manipulating it's more gullible and vulnerable players to spend ever more. Folks need to think about the true price of it all before stopping at 'kewl, I saved £10 this month' (because, if they were truthfull, they probably didn't).

Yeah, people can rent stuff in sub-free games too, but I don't support those features financially.  I don't rent stuff from the cash shop in sub-free games either.  I buy things that enhance my account like storage, characters slots, or mounts/items.  I also subscribe and buy premium status.  Like I said I'm subscribed to Tera at the moment.

The difference being sub-locked games only offer rental. Sub-free games offer choice.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  akkedis86

Novice Member

Joined: 12/13/12
Posts: 89

3/02/13 12:41:06 AM#37

Free to play to me makes a game seem very cheap, and not worth  it. 

F2P also destroys an mmo dynamic and community, as it breaks the loyalty one had to the game, and you get a huge amount of people hopping games constantly.

 

I would rather go B2P, but it is my experience that B2P titles do not do allot of content, and provide less flexibility for the vendor. 

Ultimately, this will provide us with more choice.

Even lowering subs to $6 per month for some games might bring in more people, as that's not really money, might also have diffirent levels of subs catering to diffirent playstyles.

And Students , drink one night less and you'll have your entire monthly sub and more .

 
  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7120

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

3/02/13 8:49:28 AM#38
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Torvaldr

I'm not renting temporary access to my games anymore.  That's the foundation of my move away from sub-locked games.  The money I spent on renting temporary access is basically flushed down the sewer until and unless I cough up more cash.  I don't find value in that payment model.

No, instead people are renting temporary inventory space, temporary mounts, and temporary buffs that make the game actually bearable to progress in.

And let's not even touch on the strong trend of making loot a paid for RNG gamble. Or the pay to achieve factor in buying progression (because in these games,developing your character, even visually, *is* a form of progression). Lets not talk about how they create super transient and non committed player bases that make it very hard to build half way decent communities (and give us ones that usually just end up as a toxic sludge of trolling).

Yeah, cash shops are awesome. The piecemeal breaking up of content to be sold to us for 10 times (or whatever) the price of an expack (which you could also actually, y'know, play) is a fantastic step forward for the consumer.

I find full on value in a sub that allows me to play as much as I like and access all the content in game according to my own achieving (and not the use of my CC).

'F2P' and cash shops have a horrible additional impact on core game design. They are a shady model that hides true cost and one that has an active interest in manipulating it's more gullible and vulnerable players to spend ever more. Folks need to think about the true price of it all before stopping at 'kewl, I saved £10 this month' (because, if they were truthfull, they probably didn't).

Yeah, people can rent stuff in sub-free games too, but I don't support those features financially.  I don't rent stuff from the cash shop in sub-free games either.  I buy things that enhance my account like storage, characters slots, or mounts/items.  I also subscribe and buy premium status.  Like I said I'm subscribed to Tera at the moment.

The difference being sub-locked games only offer rental. Sub-free games offer choice.

 

I get where you are coming from Tor, but obviously others do feel the need to buy this stuff... Could you drop your sub right now and still feel competitive, or even on par with your subbing guildies, at end game? Would dropping it cause you to eventually just stop playing maybe?  Do many top level payers not sub? How much 'choice' is there in reality?

 

I haven't logged into TERA recently... how much would, say, a tab of storage, an extra char slot, a mount, and a single outfit cost when added up? Just out of interest. 

 

One of the problems that grew with me also as I played TERA was that it sells keys to lock boxes as well as rentable stuff in it's pretty overpriced (IMO) shop... keys that unlock chests with vendorable gems that sell for gold, in some cases (diamonds?) a lot of gold. I like a lot about TERA, but this kind of RNG gambling to get loot (a randomised method of gold selling that actually has no set value for your purchase) is a nasty trend in monetisation that I can't support even by playing the game (even though I enjoy it in a lot of ways).

 

  Omnifish

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/11
Posts: 603

I'll kick your a**e so hard, you could build a swimming pool in the footprint!

3/02/13 9:31:26 AM#39
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Torvaldr

I'm not renting temporary access to my games anymore.  That's the foundation of my move away from sub-locked games.  The money I spent on renting temporary access is basically flushed down the sewer until and unless I cough up more cash.  I don't find value in that payment model.

 

 

No, instead people are renting temporary inventory space, temporary mounts, and temporary buffs that make the game actually bearable to progress in.

 

And let's not even touch on the strong trend of making loot a paid for RNG gamble. Or the pay to achieve factor in buying progression (because in these games,developing your character, even visually, *is* a form of progression). Lets not talk about how they create super transient and non committed player bases that make it very hard to build half way decent communities (and give us ones that usually just end up as a toxic sludge of trolling).

 

Yeah, cash shops are awesome. The piecemeal breaking up of content to be sold to us for 10 times (or whatever) the price of an expack (which you could also actually, y'know, play) is a fantastic step forward for the consumer.

 

I find full on value in a sub that allows me to play as much as I like and access all the content in game according to my own achieving (and not the use of my CC).

 

'F2P' and cash shops have a horrible additional impact on core game design. They are a shady model that hides true cost and one that has an active interest in manipulating it's more gullible and vulnerable players to spend ever more. Folks need to think about the true price of it all before stopping at 'kewl, I saved £10 this month' (because, if they were truthfull, they probably didn't).

 

I agree with this completely.

The only real advantage to F2P conversions is that the diehards game doesn't get shut down.  Games built around this just try to squeeze as much cash from the consumer as possible with barriers everywhere.

Some things are unlocked with cash but what about questionite, or lockboxes? It's a continued revenue model that demands cash from you to progress.

I much prefer the sub model because it's a simple service contract. I pay the fee, so I can play as much or as little as I like and have the games whole content avaliable to me.  If I don't want to pay it, I don't get access, simple.

The OP said it best and it's kinda of counter intiuiative to the industry. There are too many MMOs that came out and were simply subpar and the audience just wasn't big enough to support so many.  Instead of just dying out, (like business in a capitalist models), they instead turned into bastardised Free2try models that charge you for every little thing, hoping that the crevite of being, 'free', gets someone to try it and plonk some money on a lockbox or hotbar access. 

Hell I'd blame it for day one dlc and preorder bonuses as well, the success of these sorts of models has driven us to this sort of nickel and dimeing of the gamer.

This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!

  Omnifish

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/11
Posts: 603

I'll kick your a**e so hard, you could build a swimming pool in the footprint!

3/02/13 9:34:08 AM#40
Double post screw up sorry. Please delete second

This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!

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