Originally posted by Zaskar70

If there is one thing that I’m certain of in the MMORPG genre it’s that true sandbox games don’t work

 

Name one true sandbox that has been released since WOW came out. Minus EVE which works fine.

Thats why they dont work, because you dont have any. Some companies are changing that slowly but surely. More sandbox stlye games will be coming out of the next few years than all they years of mmorpgs combined. We shall see then.

Its like going to a chevy dealership with a full lot of chevy cars and trucks and the salesperson tells you fords dont work. Fact is after 90% of themepark, linear, fluff 2 week long stories, eye candy instead of features, and so much more have failed, you cant really say thats the best route either.

In the past 4 years you have seen more companies sell out, go bankrupt, or close down these games...... all of which have been themepark style games. Its a poor analogy.

There are good themepark and good sandbox, but the truth is the gameplay and features are lacking like crazy. Doesnt matter which kind of game it is, the game companies need to make them better and get off the WOW coat tails and the single player console rpg mentality.

Originally posted by Zaskar70

Originally posted by Reklaw

I want a true sandbox, but full loot FFA PVP only if it's optional else it's not a sandbox game but yet a game where the developers force you to play a certain way. Which is not what a true sandbox should be like in my opinion.

 

A sandbox game is about freedom to do what you want, how you want it and when you want it. Not how developers want you too play, but just developers given players the tools to shape or make a name in that world.

 

    

 

These two statements are contradictory, what if some player's want to kill and loot other player's?

Sandboxes have nothing to do with full loot open world pvp. Its a misconception. Matter of fact more sandbox games have little or no pvp whatsoever than with it.

Sandbox is about choice and freedom, crafting, exploring, social aspects, and more. Not about going out and being able to player kill everyone you see.

And the full loot pvp stuff came from themeparks btw ;)

Originally posted by Zorgo
so just to summarize the OP: TESO won't be a true sandbox because people used to kill him in UO.

So just to summarize the summary: I'm not a carebear. The harsher the environment the better! (or at least, that's what I say with absolutely zero risk in discussion forums)

Originally posted by Onomas

Originally posted by Zaskar70

Originally posted by Reklaw

I want a true sandbox, but full loot FFA PVP only if it's optional else it's not a sandbox game but yet a game where the developers force you to play a certain way. Which is not what a true sandbox should be like in my opinion.

 

A sandbox game is about freedom to do what you want, how you want it and when you want it. Not how developers want you too play, but just developers given players the tools to shape or make a name in that world.

 

    

 

These two statements are contradictory, what if some player's want to kill and loot other player's?

Sandboxes have nothing to do with full loot open world pvp. Its a misconception. Matter of fact more sandbox games have little or no pvp whatsoever than with it.

Sandbox is about choice and freedom, crafting, exploring, social aspects, and more. Not about going out and being able to player kill everyone you see.

And the full loot pvp stuff came from themeparks btw ;)

 

Actually he's right and you're wrong. The type of sandbox you're talking about is a later day revisionist idealized fantasy. He is talking about the original real sandbox as it actually was. Full loot PVP was the way it was. For obvious reasons, new sandbox aficionados want to distance themselves form that core feature. 

Originally posted by Zaskar70

If there is one thing that I’m certain of in the MMORPG genre it’s that true sandbox games don’t work

For the vast majority of the players that are out there.

I began my MMORPG journey in 1998 in what I still consider the ultimate sandbox game, Ultima Online.

Back in 1998 only 2 mainstream MMO’s existed, Ultima Online and Lineage and as far as anyone in the West was concerned Lineage didn’t exist because we didn’t hear about it, so for most western gamers it was Ultima Online or nothing.

Ultima Online was the great experiment, a free roaming, do anything, skill based world to explore. There were no quests to do, no guides, no tutorials, nothing to nudge you in any one direction. You chose your starting city and you were thrown into the world.

Ultima Online was a dangerous place to be, far more dangerous than any other MMORPG I have ever played since. Seeing another player while out exploring the world was a very tense moment, you could almost feel the tension between the two of you, it was this way because Ultima Online was a true sandbox in that anything could happen, you could lose everything you had on you, you could make a new friend, or you could choose to avoid one another.

There were no true safe areas in Ultima Online. The city’s were a lot safer than the wilds though you could still be robbed by a thief without ever knowing it or even killed outright before the guards could respond. A common macro in that game when going to a bank in town was “Bank, Guards!, Thief!” since the thieves would hang out at the banks to relieve you of your adventuring loot before you could deposit it.

Playing the game could be incredibly frustrating, for example on several occasions after jumping in my boat and sailing to a resource rich mining area on one of the coasts I would mine for hours only to have a couple guys sail into view, block me in with their boat before I could react and subsequently murder me. I would have to stand there on my boat which was now their boat as a ghost and watch as they looted my lifeless body, transferred all the ore it took me hours to mine to their boat, use my boat key which was now their boat key to deconstruct my boat to sell later. If they were nice they would rez me and gate me to some town, or more often than not just ignore my poor ghost until they sailed to a port and I could get off their boat and go to a healer to get rez’d.

People couldn’t really handle a true sandbox game back then, the crying and loss of subscriptions became so great that Ultima Online had to change to survive so they split the game in two and created Trammel, an exact mirror of the old world Felucca but with one twist, it was no longer a true sandbox for there was no player vs. player allowed, you could live in absolute security and thus the great experiment ended and the first true sandbox game had failed.

In my opinion if any AAA dev studio put out a true open world sandbox game today the tears would be endless and the screams of rage deafening.

Anyone who posts that they want a true sandbox game but wasn’t around to play Ultima Online before Trammel doesn’t really understand what they are asking for in my opinion.

I love when people trot out the ole' "if it's not FFA PvP full loot, then its not a sandbox" meme. Just like in real life, as civilization started to take hold, people got tired of the lawlessness and did something about it. Nobody wants to live in a lawless society where everyone is out to slit your throat. Well, nobody who lives outside Somalia anyways. The MAJORITY of people do NOT want to lose everything they work hard at everytime they get killed in an MMO. That viewpoint is very niche and only a small percentage of the player population wants those types of games as PROVEN time and time again by less-than-stellar performances for those types of games. Griefing, full loot and no safe spots anywhere are NOT required to make a sandbox.

Originally posted by keitholi

Originally posted by Zaskar70

If there is one thing that I’m certain of in the MMORPG genre it’s that true sandbox games don’t work

For the vast majority of the players that are out there.

I began my MMORPG journey in 1998 in what I still consider the ultimate sandbox game, Ultima Online.

Back in 1998 only 2 mainstream MMO’s existed, Ultima Online and Lineage and as far as anyone in the West was concerned Lineage didn’t exist because we didn’t hear about it, so for most western gamers it was Ultima Online or nothing.

Ultima Online was the great experiment, a free roaming, do anything, skill based world to explore. There were no quests to do, no guides, no tutorials, nothing to nudge you in any one direction. You chose your starting city and you were thrown into the world.

Ultima Online was a dangerous place to be, far more dangerous than any other MMORPG I have ever played since. Seeing another player while out exploring the world was a very tense moment, you could almost feel the tension between the two of you, it was this way because Ultima Online was a true sandbox in that anything could happen, you could lose everything you had on you, you could make a new friend, or you could choose to avoid one another.

There were no true safe areas in Ultima Online. The city’s were a lot safer than the wilds though you could still be robbed by a thief without ever knowing it or even killed outright before the guards could respond. A common macro in that game when going to a bank in town was “Bank, Guards!, Thief!” since the thieves would hang out at the banks to relieve you of your adventuring loot before you could deposit it.

Playing the game could be incredibly frustrating, for example on several occasions after jumping in my boat and sailing to a resource rich mining area on one of the coasts I would mine for hours only to have a couple guys sail into view, block me in with their boat before I could react and subsequently murder me. I would have to stand there on my boat which was now their boat as a ghost and watch as they looted my lifeless body, transferred all the ore it took me hours to mine to their boat, use my boat key which was now their boat key to deconstruct my boat to sell later. If they were nice they would rez me and gate me to some town, or more often than not just ignore my poor ghost until they sailed to a port and I could get off their boat and go to a healer to get rez’d.

People couldn’t really handle a true sandbox game back then, the crying and loss of subscriptions became so great that Ultima Online had to change to survive so they split the game in two and created Trammel, an exact mirror of the old world Felucca but with one twist, it was no longer a true sandbox for there was no player vs. player allowed, you could live in absolute security and thus the great experiment ended and the first true sandbox game had failed.

In my opinion if any AAA dev studio put out a true open world sandbox game today the tears would be endless and the screams of rage deafening.

Anyone who posts that they want a true sandbox game but wasn’t around to play Ultima Online before Trammel doesn’t really understand what they are asking for in my opinion.

I love when people trot out the ole' "if it's not FFA PvP full loot, then its not a sandbox" meme. Just like in real life, as civilization started to take hold, people got tired of the lawlessness and did something about it. Nobody wants to live in a lawless society where everyone is out to slit your throat. Well, nobody who lives outside Somalia anyways. The MAJORITY of people do NOT want to lose everything they work hard at everytime they get killed in an MMO. That viewpoint is very niche and only a small percentage of the player population wants those types of games as PROVEN time and time again by less-than-stellar performances for those types of games. Griefing, full loot and no safe spots anywhere are NOT required to make a sandbox.

You're almost correct. Except I would change your last statement to: "Griefing, full loot and no safe spots anywhere are NOT required, or desirable to make a MMORPG."

The problem is that sandbox proponents are always trotting out the parts of UO they don't feel embarassed about when praising the greatness of sandboxes in the "golden age of MMOs" while conveniently forgetting the most noticeable and obnoxious aspects of it.

A lot of people here love to pigeonhole all MMOS into sandbox or themepark. I rather think of MMORPGS in their entirety as either a POS or not a POS. I haven't seen anything about TESO that makes me think POS... but I seem to be in the minority in this cesspool of a forum.

OP - could you please encode your post into a DNA sequence, put it in a airbourne retrovirus and then release it into the community.

People who bang on and on about OWPvP with full loot need to be reprogrammed and brought back to reality.

Such games don't work.

You either have an outstanding and unabusable consequences system, or you utterly fail...

... and to date - not one company has created said system.

Fact.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by keitholi

Originally posted by Zaskar70

If there is one thing that I’m certain of in the MMORPG genre it’s that true sandbox games don’t work

For the vast majority of the players that are out there.

I began my MMORPG journey in 1998 in what I still consider the ultimate sandbox game, Ultima Online.

Back in 1998 only 2 mainstream MMO’s existed, Ultima Online and Lineage and as far as anyone in the West was concerned Lineage didn’t exist because we didn’t hear about it, so for most western gamers it was Ultima Online or nothing.

Ultima Online was the great experiment, a free roaming, do anything, skill based world to explore. There were no quests to do, no guides, no tutorials, nothing to nudge you in any one direction. You chose your starting city and you were thrown into the world.

Ultima Online was a dangerous place to be, far more dangerous than any other MMORPG I have ever played since. Seeing another player while out exploring the world was a very tense moment, you could almost feel the tension between the two of you, it was this way because Ultima Online was a true sandbox in that anything could happen, you could lose everything you had on you, you could make a new friend, or you could choose to avoid one another.

There were no true safe areas in Ultima Online. The city’s were a lot safer than the wilds though you could still be robbed by a thief without ever knowing it or even killed outright before the guards could respond. A common macro in that game when going to a bank in town was “Bank, Guards!, Thief!” since the thieves would hang out at the banks to relieve you of your adventuring loot before you could deposit it.

Playing the game could be incredibly frustrating, for example on several occasions after jumping in my boat and sailing to a resource rich mining area on one of the coasts I would mine for hours only to have a couple guys sail into view, block me in with their boat before I could react and subsequently murder me. I would have to stand there on my boat which was now their boat as a ghost and watch as they looted my lifeless body, transferred all the ore it took me hours to mine to their boat, use my boat key which was now their boat key to deconstruct my boat to sell later. If they were nice they would rez me and gate me to some town, or more often than not just ignore my poor ghost until they sailed to a port and I could get off their boat and go to a healer to get rez’d.

People couldn’t really handle a true sandbox game back then, the crying and loss of subscriptions became so great that Ultima Online had to change to survive so they split the game in two and created Trammel, an exact mirror of the old world Felucca but with one twist, it was no longer a true sandbox for there was no player vs. player allowed, you could live in absolute security and thus the great experiment ended and the first true sandbox game had failed.

In my opinion if any AAA dev studio put out a true open world sandbox game today the tears would be endless and the screams of rage deafening.

Anyone who posts that they want a true sandbox game but wasn’t around to play Ultima Online before Trammel doesn’t really understand what they are asking for in my opinion.

I love when people trot out the ole' "if it's not FFA PvP full loot, then its not a sandbox" meme. Just like in real life, as civilization started to take hold, people got tired of the lawlessness and did something about it. Nobody wants to live in a lawless society where everyone is out to slit your throat. Well, nobody who lives outside Somalia anyways. The MAJORITY of people do NOT want to lose everything they work hard at everytime they get killed in an MMO. That viewpoint is very niche and only a small percentage of the player population wants those types of games as PROVEN time and time again by less-than-stellar performances for those types of games. Griefing, full loot and no safe spots anywhere are NOT required to make a sandbox.

You're almost correct. Except I would change your last statement to: "Griefing, full loot and no safe spots anywhere are NOT required, or desirable to make a MMORPG."

The problem is that sandbox proponents are always trotting out the parts of UO they don't feel embarassed about when praising the greatness of sandboxes in the "golden age of MMOs" while conveniently forgetting the most noticeable and obnoxious aspects of it.

A lot of people here love to pigeonhole all MMOS into sandbox or themepark. I rather think of MMORPGS in their entirety as either a POS or not a POS. I haven't seen anything about TESO that makes me think POS... but I seem to be in the minority in this cesspool of a forum.

 

As an elite member with over 950 posts - it would seem that you cry crocodile tears in complaining that you are in a minority in this 'cesspool'.

Obviously OP is entitled to his (or her, I didn't check) opinion on the matter, but I do not agree with his (or her) 'rules' on what makes a sand box.

There are many true sand box games out there and more coming, and just because you can't lose everything in the blink of an eye, does not mean they are not 'true' sand box games.  Anyway, the write up was not all that impressive, if UO was so amazing they would have a lot more numbers and still be a powerhouse in the gaming world.  It is not the only true sand dox MMO.

Originally posted by Caliburn101

OP - could you please encode your post into a DNA sequence, put it in a airbourne retrovirus and then release it into the community.

People who bang on and on about OWPvP with full loot need to be reprogrammed and brought back to reality.

Such games don't work.

You either have an outstanding and unabusable consequences system, or you utterly fail...

... and to date - not one company has created said system.

Fact.

EVE.

Open World Full Loot PvP.

Works.

Fact.

Why TESO was not designed as sandbox is a simple amswer

1) Sandbox  requires vast creativity. Themeparks are just like any other simple RPG out there you follow a simple little script from A to Z. Much easier to make.

2) Cost associatied with trying to be creative is going to be high. These themeparks can be made cheaply because they are factory made now. They just keep on rollin out.

3) Elder scrolls name is huge so they already know they are going to sell many copies alone just on the name. Couple that with a cheaply made game and they are going to make a massive profit.

Originally posted by potapithikos

Originally posted by Caliburn101

OP - could you please encode your post into a DNA sequence, put it in a airbourne retrovirus and then release it into the community.

People who bang on and on about OWPvP with full loot need to be reprogrammed and brought back to reality.

Such games don't work.

You either have an outstanding and unabusable consequences system, or you utterly fail...

... and to date - not one company has created said system.

Fact.

EVE.

Open World Full Loot PvP.

Works.

Fact.

Eve is the exception that proves the rule.

It is right on the edge of the envelope of what constitutes an MMO - it is unique.

It is a low population niche game with player policed consequences in most of the game area - but then I don't need to discuss the differences between lowsec/highsec, canning or any other issue with you as you know.

It is the exception that proves the rule because the consequences system is only operated in a small area because if rolled out everywhere it would completely ruin the game.

Ergo - it is not really 'outstanding', and there can be arguments made for it not being 'unnabusable' as well.

In any case, allow me to unmuddy the water here.

In any MMO without spacecraft as the 'main characters', and where PC/NPC interractions are thus minimised and vastly simplified to an easily manageable extent, my contention holds.

Originally posted by Caliburn101

It [EvE] is a low population niche game with player policed consequences in most of the game area - but then I don't need to discuss the differences between lowsec/highsec, canning or any other issue with you as you know.

Low population? EvE now have over 500 000 subs and it will keep on climbing. They re-opened their Chinese server you see.

Originally posted by Caliburn101

Originally posted by potapithikos

Originally posted by Caliburn101

OP - could you please encode your post into a DNA sequence, put it in a airbourne retrovirus and then release it into the community.

People who bang on and on about OWPvP with full loot need to be reprogrammed and brought back to reality.

Such games don't work.

You either have an outstanding and unabusable consequences system, or you utterly fail...

... and to date - not one company has created said system.

Fact.

EVE.

Open World Full Loot PvP.

Works.

Fact.

Eve is the exception that proves the rule. EVE is the exception in that it was delivered by competent and better funded people than any of the post UO era MMOs like DF, MO and Earthrise. 

It would be as stupid for me to say that Themepark with instanced, limited and completely structured PvP don't work and that WoW is the exception that proves the rule.

It is a low population niche game with player policed consequences in most of the game area - but then I don't need to discuss the differences between lowsec/highsec, canning or any other issue with you as you know. (500k subscribers, 50k+ simultaneously online... that sure has low pop and niche written all over it)

It is the exception that proves the rule because the consequences system is only operated in a small area because if rolled out everywhere it would completely ruin the game.

Do you even know what you are refering to by consequence system? The area btw that has no game enforced consequences for engaging in open pvp is far bigger than the area which still allows it but with tangible consequences.

In any MMO without spacecraft as the 'main characters', and where PC/NPC interractions are thus minimised and vastly simplified to an easily manageable extent, my contention holds.

So because you do not visually control a bipedal being but a spaceship PC interactions are minimised and vastly simplified? MINIMISED and VASTLY simplified??! If there is an MMO that allows players to affect one another in the most ways possible it's EVE... you clearly have no clue about what a Sandbox game is and what EVE is.

Sandboxes with Open PvP work. They have worked for ages... since the time of MUDs. 

The catch is that just like Themeparks they have to be well made to actually prosper... DF is a sanbox junk... just like SWTOR is a themepark junk.

Originally posted by toddze

3) Elder scrolls name is huge so they already know they are going to sell many copies alone just on the name. Couple that with a cheaply made game and they are going to make a massive profit.

I bet there is an EA exec reading this right now going "Thank god.... for a moment i thought we were the only retards on this planet"

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Jetrpg

Originally posted by Rthuth434

...OR...

 

because for the millionth time a shot caller who use to be at Mythic did what Mythic does best, rehash their old work.

 

CAlling BS. I just wish a former mythic dood would just remake the darn game, yet they never have. They have made like daoc + wow + other shit thats awful = poopsticks . And thats what we get, poopsticks, which aren;t much fun. Please can i haz daocburger 2.0.

Have you not seen Camelot Unchained?

I have and its less similar to daoc than war or gw2 was....

Originally posted by Caliburn101

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by keitholi

Originally posted by Zaskar70

If there is one thing that I’m certain of in the MMORPG genre it’s that true sandbox games don’t work

For the vast majority of the players that are out there.

I began my MMORPG journey in 1998 in what I still consider the ultimate sandbox game, Ultima Online.

Back in 1998 only 2 mainstream MMO’s existed, Ultima Online and Lineage and as far as anyone in the West was concerned Lineage didn’t exist because we didn’t hear about it, so for most western gamers it was Ultima Online or nothing.

Ultima Online was the great experiment, a free roaming, do anything, skill based world to explore. There were no quests to do, no guides, no tutorials, nothing to nudge you in any one direction. You chose your starting city and you were thrown into the world.

Ultima Online was a dangerous place to be, far more dangerous than any other MMORPG I have ever played since. Seeing another player while out exploring the world was a very tense moment, you could almost feel the tension between the two of you, it was this way because Ultima Online was a true sandbox in that anything could happen, you could lose everything you had on you, you could make a new friend, or you could choose to avoid one another.

There were no true safe areas in Ultima Online. The city’s were a lot safer than the wilds though you could still be robbed by a thief without ever knowing it or even killed outright before the guards could respond. A common macro in that game when going to a bank in town was “Bank, Guards!, Thief!” since the thieves would hang out at the banks to relieve you of your adventuring loot before you could deposit it.

Playing the game could be incredibly frustrating, for example on several occasions after jumping in my boat and sailing to a resource rich mining area on one of the coasts I would mine for hours only to have a couple guys sail into view, block me in with their boat before I could react and subsequently murder me. I would have to stand there on my boat which was now their boat as a ghost and watch as they looted my lifeless body, transferred all the ore it took me hours to mine to their boat, use my boat key which was now their boat key to deconstruct my boat to sell later. If they were nice they would rez me and gate me to some town, or more often than not just ignore my poor ghost until they sailed to a port and I could get off their boat and go to a healer to get rez’d.

People couldn’t really handle a true sandbox game back then, the crying and loss of subscriptions became so great that Ultima Online had to change to survive so they split the game in two and created Trammel, an exact mirror of the old world Felucca but with one twist, it was no longer a true sandbox for there was no player vs. player allowed, you could live in absolute security and thus the great experiment ended and the first true sandbox game had failed.

In my opinion if any AAA dev studio put out a true open world sandbox game today the tears would be endless and the screams of rage deafening.

Anyone who posts that they want a true sandbox game but wasn’t around to play Ultima Online before Trammel doesn’t really understand what they are asking for in my opinion.

I love when people trot out the ole' "if it's not FFA PvP full loot, then its not a sandbox" meme. Just like in real life, as civilization started to take hold, people got tired of the lawlessness and did something about it. Nobody wants to live in a lawless society where everyone is out to slit your throat. Well, nobody who lives outside Somalia anyways. The MAJORITY of people do NOT want to lose everything they work hard at everytime they get killed in an MMO. That viewpoint is very niche and only a small percentage of the player population wants those types of games as PROVEN time and time again by less-than-stellar performances for those types of games. Griefing, full loot and no safe spots anywhere are NOT required to make a sandbox.

You're almost correct. Except I would change your last statement to: "Griefing, full loot and no safe spots anywhere are NOT required, or desirable to make a MMORPG."

The problem is that sandbox proponents are always trotting out the parts of UO they don't feel embarassed about when praising the greatness of sandboxes in the "golden age of MMOs" while conveniently forgetting the most noticeable and obnoxious aspects of it.

A lot of people here love to pigeonhole all MMOS into sandbox or themepark. I rather think of MMORPGS in their entirety as either a POS or not a POS. I haven't seen anything about TESO that makes me think POS... but I seem to be in the minority in this cesspool of a forum.

 

As an elite member with over 950 posts - it would seem that you cry crocodile tears in complaining that you are in a minority in this 'cesspool'.

Gee...I hadn't noticed any tears coming from the people in this TESO forum who are feeling good about how this game is developing. Perhaps you don't know that in order for hypocritical tears to be characterized as "crocodile tears" there have to be tears in the first place.

I do see a lot of tears from those of you who are protectors of the true TES legacy... but they seem to be genuine tears... pathetic as that may be.

See I'm not the one jumping into every non-negative thread--in addition to thebiased polls you seem to enjoy creating--and attempting to derail them as you did with this post in a thread where someone had the nerve to attempt to start a discussion about TESO with others who are veterans of DAoC RvR:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/view/forums/thread/375861/page/2

Originally posted by Caliburn101
 

Indeed - the 'DAoC or bust' hypetrain is overloaded with this one-track-minded bull.

No reason to not have both - but the DAoC crowd can't see past their rose-tinted nostalgia to the concerns of others.

Imagine the outcry from them if a DAoC 2 had been developed and had elements of TES forced into it in a way which seriously impacted on the way 3-faction PvP had worked in DAoC 1.

The boards would be flooded with tears and vitriol...

Anyway...

I thinks it's likely the PvP will be good. I can't see why not.

It's a shame they had to frack one of the best things about the incredibly successful IP they are using to do it.

The obvious implication of this thread's title is of course this;

"DAoC Veterans Welcome - Elder Scrolls Veterans irrelevant..."

You and a couple of cronies are attempting to dominate this forum with your negativity. I don't intend to make it easy for you. Even though this particular forum is being made a cesspool by you and yours, it really could be a better place where good dicussaions about the game could be had without your incesant whining about the same coupkle of problems you have with Zenimax's approach.

What I have been seeing is that a lot of you seem to want a sandbox game that caters to your own personal playstyle. For example if you love to explore you want a seemless open world with no instancing or if your a crafter you want the complete player run economy and deep meaningful crafting system or if your into PvP you want full open world ffa PvP.

The thing is that in order for a true sandbox game to work all of these different playstyles need to accept one another in the game world and that has proven very hard for most people to do.

In my opinion the term sandbox when applied to a game means you are free as a player to express yourself within the gaming world in whatever way you wish. 

Gamers have begun to feel entitled to their personal playstyle with no interuption's or incoveniences, AAA developers have noticed this, and that sort of thought process will not work in a true sandbox game.

What you end up with are games being designed that attempt to isolate the different playstyles so player A doesnt get thier exploration in player B's PvP while player C's dungeon raid is instanced so his party has the whole dungeon to themselves with zero chance of interuption from either A, B, or other C's. This is very hard to do from a design standpoint while also making all playstyle's happy.

This is why in my opinion TESO was not designed as a huge open virtual "world" like a lot of you seem to have wanted.

Most MMORPG games will continue to be designed this way until people can accept the possibility that their gaming session could be interupted or inconvenienced in some way by other people within the gaming world. 

Originally posted by Iselin

 Indeed - the 'DAoC or bust' hypetrain is overloaded with this one-track-minded bull.

This thread originally began with "UO or bust", so, it's only fair.

Aren't we all getting all pretty tired of one-true-game idealists, in general?

ESO just made the mistake of pitting them against each other, within the same title.\

"I thought this would be just like Skyrim" "No, it's going to be just  like DAoC" "Why can't it be more like SWG" "Death Penalty Rawr!!" "That's now how the only True sandbox (UO) did it" "WoW clone!" (everyone's got a horse in this race, somewhere)

Maybe it'd be best to stop trying to force it into some other game's mold, entirely. That require Zeni to just ignore the ebb and flow of rabble rabble, and make ESO. Then everyone can pick up their soapboxes, and head home.