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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is Modern PvP too ordered to be fun?

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23 posts found
  Bent

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/04
Posts: 577

 
OP  2/26/13 10:01:02 PM#1

 

There are many PvP games out and some have been out for a long time.  But for some reason I can't find myself getting into modern PvP.  I actually worry that modern PvP is too ordered.  I don't think it is the games fault so much as the players evolving.  The fact that voice chat is almost required in groups now to have an even chance of victory is a sign to me that players have almost too much control, and that the control is perhaps too valuable.   MJ chaos post got me thinking a bit that chaos is good and this post is the result of that brain stew. 

To me PvP has seemed to evolved into small group vs group CC/focus burst target PvP.  And to me the result feels almost predetermined, and thus not very engaging.  I find myself PvPing for points or ranking instead of for the fun of it.  That is, I want to get my points as efficiently as possible.  AKA I am finding myself wanting to play as little as possible.  But why?

After thinking about I think it may be because:

Pretty much the entire goal of modern PvP has become "kill your opponent BEFORE they can react/play."  Which to me sort of defeats the purpose of playing against other people, and isn't much fun when you are on the losing side.   

I think two main things have changed in the last 10 years.  First is the acceptance/availability of voice chat, it has made preforming optimal reactions as a team  much more possible; From having a couple snipers fire on a target at the same time in planetside, to quickly identifying CC/interrupt targets/ in MMOs.  This could always be done in the past via messaging, /assisting, pings, or being on the phone with your buddy, but it is easier and more efficient/common today.  That is to say players are acting in a more ordered manner.

The Second issue I think is information on games being so much more available  now.  Certain builds/skills/guns/equipment are just better, and that knowledge is easily shared now and other players can often easily see what you are using and often let you know if you have a crap build/layout.  Once again, less randomness and more order, and the cause once again being the players.    

When I go back to think of my best PvP experience not a single one involved me having my headphones on, or damage meters running.  Headphones/optimal setup = higher rank (which makes you feel good), but my most enjoyable battles have been some of the most unorganized matches I have played.

Some examples of My favorite PvP:

DAOC  after Zerg vs Zerg when it ended up with just the wounded leftovers of each side. Something like 3 random hibs vs 5 random mids, everyone nearly out of mana/endurance, fighting by the skin or their teeth - victory could go to either side.  If you made it to that point, it was a rush whether you won or lost.

Some of the best PvP I ever played has been open beta weekends (Guild Wars, Warhammer, etc) in which it is pretty much PST for invite.  Pretty much no one knows what they were doing, and it makes the PvP deviously chaotic PvP.     

Besides the above examples in general I enjoy 1v1 duels in FPS, RPG, or even a card game like Magic: The gathering. 

The end point being I think chaos may be what is missing from modern PvP and why it may seem “less fun” to some folk.  If variety is the spice of life, Chaos/RNG may be the spice of PvP.  All that said  I do agree chaos and RNG doesn't mix well with competitive PvP.  I personally wouldn’t consider a RvRvR game as something likely to become an esport though… 

As such, I for one an interested in the idea of critical successful and failures in a PvP game.  I think it would be interesting if they could be tied to something the player control, such as health or an energy pool.  Basic stuff like lower HP and crit success increases for some classes, low endurence or high fatigue and there is a good change you may trip up.  Risk vs Reward.  I would totally look foward to hearing folk screem in voice about why they didn't get help and then hear "sorry I tripped ."  I never thought of it before, but now I believe there is a severe lack of occasionally falling on your arse in video games.    

 

 

 

 

  Smorak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/07
Posts: 62

What man is a man that does not make the world better?

2/26/13 10:42:25 PM#2

I think your head is in the right place.  But, perhaps, you've lost the reason for order.

The reason voice is a staple these days in PVP across genres is because people recognize the need for organization.  The first game that started it off was Socom.  Being able to direct traffic via voice instead of typed words has changed the world.  Telephones will always be more direct for action than emails.

Would the random PuGs be on a more equal playing field with organized groups if they were banned from using VOIP during play?  To some extent, yes.  But it still comes down to execution.  And if you want to world to be less organized, then you really have to dissolve guilds and alliances.

 

What if instead of critical fails, you had big shots that were 50/50 on hit or miss.  A hit would be huge and miss would seriously drain your endurance.  It's like a haymaker in boxing.  It could knock your opponent out.  But if you miss, you expose yourself to a devastating counter.

  Bent

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/04
Posts: 577

 
OP  2/27/13 1:05:43 AM#3

I guess what I miss most is the contested part of the fights lasting longer.

My hope is that there will be no prefect execution in CU.  I guess more like Guild Wars1.  Bursting wasn't a huge issue, there were anti-burst skills, but there was no hard CC.  I hope CU has some skills like that.  Increase dodge to 75% for 3seconds kinda deal, or all foes within 5' are knocked down, can be used while CCed.

Any type of hard CC should have a chance to break every few seconds.  In fact, if the enemy /dances at you it should break all CC ;)      

 

  Demerzel

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/04
Posts: 22

2/27/13 5:58:22 AM#4

Yes i agree on mostly everything. 

Ideas on mecanics to counter this:

 

 

-disguise spell/skill

-randomness required for cc (eg tornado that knocks people down but moves uncontrollably.. or ground aoe fire that moves in the wind)

-no assist function

-aoe confuse spell makes peoples targets look different

-knockbacks, knockup with completely random directions

-fireballs that bounces of shields and continues in a different direction..

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

2/27/13 7:08:41 AM#5
I always wanted a "silence" spell in the pre-Vent days. Now it would just be useless.

In a way, the online innovations we enjoy today actually hinder the game design of the games we play. Without Vent, imagine all the possible mechanics that could be implemented. Moreover, remember how much more immersive it was when you didn't have seven people screaming acronyms into your ears?

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

2/27/13 7:17:13 AM#6
Also, and in regards to your question: Yes. It IS too ordered to be fun. Hopefully CU will fix this. MJ seems to understand what has gone wrong in the mmo world, on paper. If he can translate the vision he is proposing (and I think he/CSE can) then we can all breathe a sigh of relief and resume beating the sh!t out of each other.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Kvalandur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/13
Posts: 31

2/27/13 7:40:06 AM#7

Coming from a background of the early games, Drakkar, UO, DAOC, I agree that chaos and randomness are definitely missing in today's PvP. I also think its a perfect storm of additions to games ie. voice chat, UI addons and game design (especially instancing). These have all come together to eliminate the chaos and randomness that made up PvP/RvR. Players who never experienced DAOC when it was the hottest game out just can't imagine how different things were. Back when you could only shout and hope a team mate saw it while you fought for our life, those times were so memorable considering how today you just tell the group across the battlefield whatever you want them to know.

 

  The focus on gear, being the only thing some games have to try and keep players after they hit max level, has really hurt games, both PvE and PvE. Addons that display gear scores just compound the problem.

 

 The way many games have mirrored classes, Rift comes to mind having identical classes. The lack of diversity between characters and the locking everyone into a set role, to me is just boring.

 

 That's why games like Pathfinder Online and Camelot Unchained interest me. They harken back to a time when games allowed players to fail if the player did something stupid. Both of these titles plan for death to not be a 1 minute run back to the battle, bringing meaning back to staying alive. I'm not exactly sure how CU plans to handle gear, but PFO plans to break the gear grubbing mold so many games have taken up lately, which to me is excellent news!

 

 I realize that the majority of gamers will likely disagree with my views. How can the not when they haven't experienced how things were before Viop, addons and instanced PvP areas?

  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

2/27/13 7:44:25 AM#8
Same thing that has ruined MMOs completely at this point is what it wrong with (modern PvP) skill no longer matters in MMOs. Bring back skills and you bring back MMOs.
  Kvalandur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/13
Posts: 31

2/27/13 7:49:23 AM#9
Originally posted by Bent

I guess what I miss most is the contested part of the fights lasting longer.

My hope is that there will be no prefect execution in CU.  I guess more like Guild Wars1.  Bursting wasn't a huge issue, there were anti-burst skills, but there was no hard CC.  I hope CU has some skills like that.  Increase dodge to 75% for 3seconds kinda deal, or all foes within 5' are knocked down, can be used while CCed.

Any type of hard CC should have a chance to break every few seconds.  In fact, if the enemy /dances at you it should break all CC ;)      

 

    One really cool thing that PFO plans to do is narrow the level gap between characters. A player 5 levels above another wont be able to flatten the lower level player in 2 hits like happens now. Battles won't be won in under a minute. I think this is really going to change how most battles are fought. It will hopefully bring some planning and strategy back to the battlefield.

 Has anyone heard if CU is going to have the usual level gap?

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19094

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/27/13 7:54:00 AM#10

Two different styles of PVP really.

The first that the OP is looking for, with a random and chaotic nature to it is more like combat in the real world, toss in some punishment for losing/dying and you've got yourself a proper little war scenario set up.

The alternate which many titles today employ is that of making PVP a "sport", ie, the sides are evenly matched, everyone has the same powers/skills/opportunities, much like a game of football where individual player "skill' is really the deciding factor (of course teamwork is a big factor too)

Neither one is better than another, but I think the latter is favored by more players these days hence their popularity (and of titles such as MOBAs)

 

Arrogant, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Kvalandur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/13
Posts: 31

2/27/13 8:51:45 AM#11
Originally posted by Kyleran

Two different styles of PVP really.

The first that the OP is looking for, with a random and chaotic nature to it is more like combat in the real world, toss in some punishment for losing/dying and you've got yourself a proper little war scenario set up.

The alternate which many titles today employ is that of making PVP a "sport", ie, the sides are evenly matched, everyone has the same powers/skills/opportunities, much like a game of football where individual player "skill' is really the deciding factor (of course teamwork is a big factor too)

Neither one is better than another, but I think the latter is favored by more players these days hence their popularity (and of titles such as MOBAs)

 

 That's a good way to describe what they have today, "sport".  Makes sense.  I believe the OP, and I are mainly talking about larger more "open world" type PvP. I definitely favor PvP where anyone can join or leave the area where the fighting is taking place.  The Frontiers in DAOC, and Warhammer are perfect examples. In PFO they intend for frontier areas to separate settled areas, or to better describe it, they intend on having lawless, frontier areas surrounding settled areas until players clear an area and construct a settlement in that area.

  Wighty

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 586

2/27/13 9:18:57 AM#12

PvP in modern MMO's is so sterile and homoginized due to everything having give this false sense of balance and fairness that most players delicate sensibilities would be shattered if they had to survive a game like UO, DAOC, AC back in the day.

 

How dare you kill a guy who rolls a character on a PVP server who is out questing or gathering! All of a sudden it's Grief, Nerf, HAXX, Steath QQ. I mean what is the point of having dedicated PvP servers when people are afraid and will complain like hell when they are in fact killed.

 

Games like Darkfall and MO solve this but in a very harsh and extreme way... Currently to my knowledge there is no middle ground except MAYBE Age of Conan which is a ghost town.

 

People also don't want to admit they suck balls at PvP... I used to be one of those "clickers" and was always on the wrong side of someones blade and used to say why am I always getting owned? While I am no expert now after a few years of conditioning myself to better use the keyboard for hotkeys I at least have a chance... Granted there are those players that are just "wired in" and they just completely dominate because they are in fact a better player than I am, and I acceot that.. Especially now that I am 40 playiung against people half my age with better reaction time and/or are just better conditioned for a certain game style.

 

I also wish TTK was longer in most games... this FPS style "Boom head shot" game play is shit... I mean what good is being fully geared ou with the best gear with say 10k HP's when players are speced to take out "boss mobs" with 100M hp's most skills/spells will do 20k damage and hardly scale between PvP and PvE.

This leaves PvP combat over in 5 seconds... This is not Call of Duty! If you would like that game play style PvP there are many GOOD choices geared towards that...  I would like to see PvP fights last 1-2 minutes... Time to properly recover and fight back, escape if needed or call a freind who may be local to you. This creates the sense of suvivability and players pick targets better and also eliminated a lot of "the gank"

Lastly, the whole World PvP vs BG PvP just sucks... Eliminate the BG's and encourage World! If I want to play in a BG or arena like setting there are plenty of MOBA's out there to accomplish it. Ironic how we all play these supposed MASSIVEMORPGS for PVE and resort to the in game COOPMORPG BG's for PVP, as stated there are plenty of 4,8,10, 16 player games out there for BG style play.

 

What are your other Hobbies?

Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

2/27/13 9:38:05 AM#13

What irritates me mostly about pvp is how fast paced it has become (and I don't mean fast paced in terms of need for skill, but in terms of how easy it is to kill ppl in most games). IMO it should be a lot harder to kill people than it is in most games. Like trying to kill an inq with a smuggler (after the initial smuggler nerf, obviously). I realize swtor is probably not even worth talking about .. but it's a good example of length in that one instance, imo.

I guess the vast majority would find it boring if they aren't constantly creating corpses ... so .. what to do? idk ...

Think back to musketeers. They'd line up and fire, and a bunch of ppl would fall over dead. So being able to kill someone fast makes sense ... but these games are meant to instill a certain amount of that good old "hero" thing ... heros dont fall over dead in 2 seconds of fighting.

An interesting side effect to every battle being like a wow1.0 druid vs paladin is there would probably be a lot more draws. Draws rarely happen in MMOs these days which is a shame.

I guess I think of it this way, if the victor can have 1 HP left, get healed to full and run off to kill someone else, why does the guy with -1 HP have to run back? It's just mechanics and not being a game designer yet <,< ... i've no idea what to do about that. Obviously it doesn't make sense for the dead guy to just stand up and start attacking again ...

Mana/Energy maybe is a big part of the issue along with overall damage numbers.
What if you couldn't eat/drink at all while flagged or otherwise in a pvp area? At one point my Sage was practically invincible (with a little help from my friends of course) mostly because I could spam out ludicrous heals with amazing maneuverability and then drink while my team slowed the next wave.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

2/27/13 9:48:53 AM#14
I think the issue is much more with instances rather then any skills, voice or TTK. Actually In DAOC TTK when you were nuking someone was way under most modern "sport" mmos it was the real boom headshot there.

I did not mind most of the WAR dynamics(except for pull and kb) but scenario farming killed the game for me.
  Kvalandur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/13
Posts: 31

2/27/13 10:43:34 AM#15

Instancing, to me, has really jacked games up. PvP, dungeons hell some games lock you down in large battles into instances. I remember in DAOC when Darkness Falls came out, creeping around with a good sized group, mobs spawn and in the midst of dukeing it out with them your slammed by a group of Mids. Now your fighting on two fronts, it was wicked fun! :D

 

  User Deleted
2/27/13 11:07:28 AM#16

I think the trend of fair,balanced,"skill" based pvp and the lack of any risk of any type whatsoever...makes most themepark pvp lacking in entertainment, other than short term i guess.

"skill" based pvp is a newer complaint that i think is silly...realistically its reflex based pvp over strategy and knowledge based, which is what older games offerd in mmorpgs.  The thought here is that characters should be a look, and everything should be equal and counterable.  The fun lies here in who can mash the right buttons the best, or so im told...hence it being skill based and not game based on the outcome of the fight.

This set up leads to really no variety in gameplay, no unexpected encounters, no real strategy since its based on a 1vs1 view.  Everyone runs in, does their dps, and thats basically it...

 

I rather enjoyed class based pvp, where there was a lot of room for unexpected outcomes...granted most self proclaimed pvpers would all roll "the best" class and it would get boring again.

 

Really though...you take away the current zero risk pvp and put peoples gear on the line and pvp changes 100%.  Its really unfortunate that all these "hardcore" pvpers who have the ability to spend 100% of their time in game queued for battleground wont touch a game with full loot with a 10 foot pole.

 

In all honesty..so many other game types do the pvp thing better, and it just seems like mmorpgs are trending towards adding that style of pvp...over doing something that would be more unique to the RPG scene.

Lack of diverse classes, lack of teamwork where everyone wants to be the guy with the alpha strike killing people directly or last shotting them, lack of a diverse class system and too much focus on 1vs1 balance makes most mmorpg themeparks pvp unbearably boring.

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

2/27/13 11:11:26 AM#17
Unordered pvp presents a different problem. It creates a pvp pyramid where a few at the top are having fun and the vast majority are miserable. I do agree that modern pvp can be so structured as to sap the fun out of it also. The answer is in the genious who finds a system that creates a balance between the two.
  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2344

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

2/27/13 12:05:45 PM#18
Originally posted by Zorgo
Unordered pvp presents a different problem. It creates a pvp pyramid where a few at the top are having fun and the vast majority are miserable. I do agree that modern pvp can be so structured as to sap the fun out of it also. The answer is in the genious who finds a system that creates a balance between the two.

 

I played Eve for a long time, starting out in fac war and ending in piracy. I never belonged to a corp larger than about 70 people. We could never in a million years compete against the alliances with 1000+ people. But we didn't try to. We were far from miserable. As a matter of fact I had a blast.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Kvalandur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/13
Posts: 31

2/27/13 12:09:34 PM#19
A couple of things PFO is planning are full loot PvP, the possibility of PvP anywhere and a classless system that uses skill trees where you can mix and match aspects of different classes. Although its full loot they will have threads where you can bind certain items to you making them unable to be looted. But you won't have enough threads to tie all your gear to you, so you'll have to watch what you carry and choose what you want to keep past death. Because they will use encumbrance, players won't be able to just slurp up all your gear, Unlooted items will remain on your corpse and can be reclaimed if the player makes it back to their corpse. They are setting up their areas similar to how Eve does their sectors, so while PvP is possible everywhere, in areas with laws against murder, guards will spawn who will wax the murderer like Concord does in Eve. Finally, gear for the most part will be player crafted and easily obtained so the possibility of losing items isn't as bad as it would be if you spent 6 hours raiding just to get 1 piece of a set.
  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3140

2/27/13 12:15:23 PM#20
The problem I have with Modern PvP in just about every game is that it ends.  I can't think of a single modern game where there is a constant, sustained PvP.  I'm not a big fan of PvP, in fact I have never done much with PvP in any game except CoD, Battlfield, and DAoC.  DAoC is the only game I ever felt was fun to PvP in for long periods of time.  When it comes to shooters, I've always wanted one that lasted forever, fights never ended.  None of this 30 minute match set up crud.  I would play more PvP if I could log in, find out where the battle is, and jump in.  However many hours I got to play later, I log out and we may have made progress, but the battle is far from over.  This is what I got from DAoC, and I liked it for over 8 years.
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