Originally posted by Butch808
permadeath in any shape or form seperates the boys from the men. xD

100% agree with this statement lol.

Like I said earlier, the game looks very promising until you get to the permadeath decision.

Let's look at permadeath with their so called 99 lives.  The fun of a MMO is developing your character.  Eventually you will lose that character if you like the game it will be just a matter of time.  So what happens then?  You start over?  No one knows you, of course that could be good if you were a bit of a nasty player.  When you get down to it, 100 deaths is nothing when you play a game you like.  Makes playing the game as risk adverse and that does not sound like much fun to me.

The basic fact of the matter, the internet is not all that stable.  Disconnect and there goes one of your lives...run into a cheater, there goes another one.  The problem with small companies like this one, cheaters take great advantage of them because they know that they do not have the resources to control them.  Just take as an example WARZ, the game is a cheatfest and the developers seem clueless to fix the problem, granted that is an extreme situation, but still, it is pertinent.

It is a shame that cheating is so rampant.  Perhaps this developer has solutions to control them, but experience says that it really takes a large support staff to handle them, which this game won't have.

So while the idea of permadeath might not sound that bad, in reality it is.

A game like this just separates the cheaters from the rest of the population, little to do with how skilled you are.

Originally posted by danwest58

Perma-death is definitely something people need to grow into. I think the immediate thought about perma-death is a "1 death and you're done' kind of thing. Sorry but this is 99 deaths and 1 more before you're done for good so when you die, don't freak out too bad. People are also SO sucked into the 'no consequences' mindset that they sometimes find it hard to see the benefits of perma-death and I am not going to lie, I had a little tough time grasping it too. What helped me was not just trying to understand its benefits but learning about ALL of the other features of the game too.

I don't think this game is going to be 100% for everyone but my piece of advice is, take a moment and read about the various features. I really think if you give it a chance, you'll fall in love with the game.

I played UO, SWG FFXI and about a dozen other MMOs.  Having harsh consequences upon death back in those days were kewl and something I had no problem with.  In todays world at almost 33 years old and having a family I will tell the developer to shove it.  I dont live in my parents basement anymore to the point I can play a game from 5pm Friday night until 9pm Sunday night non stop.  I am lucky to get 5 to 10 hours a week to play and if I am going to get a perma death and loose hundreds of hours worth of work I am not going to play that game.  [mod edit]  Just like Salem Online it's going to be for a very small niche type of player and the game will only become marginally profitable. 

Agreed and in the same boat. This game will be harsh for the working man/woman.

Perma-death is not a good idea, imagine playing a year or more and losing all of your hard work and progression. Quite frankly, this game will be a griefers wet dream. To believe somehow that this game won't be a griefer's paradise is to not understand the history of these types of games.

Think Darkfall was bad? Heh.

I love every feature mentioned except perma-death. I won't pony up my cash and a year's play just to lose everything to an a**-hat griefer group.

Originally posted by OmendiZ

Originally posted by Butch808
permadeath in any shape or form seperates the boys from the men. xD

100% agree with this statement lol.

+1

Originally posted by GimiZigi

Originally posted by Ozmodan

More challenged developers who think that they need perma death in a MMO to create a challenge.  Earth to developers, it does not work that way!

Game sounded great until they had to throw in the PD.  Won't fund it, nor touch it.  Waste of my and everyone else's time.

Great concept though, would fund it if they dropped the perma death feature.

Perma-death is definitely something people need to grow into. I think the immediate thought about perma-death is a "1 death and you're done' kind of thing. Sorry but this is 99 deaths and 1 more before you're done for good so when you die, don't freak out too bad. People are also SO sucked into the 'no consequences' mindset that they sometimes find it hard to see the benefits of perma-death and I am not going to lie, I had a little tough time grasping it too. What helped me was not just trying to understand its benefits but learning about ALL of the other features of the game too.

I don't think this game is going to be 100% for everyone but my piece of advice is, take a moment and read about the various features. I really think if you give it a chance, you'll fall in love with the game.

Open world, free for for all, non-consentual PvP = many, many deaths.  100 seems like a small number when you can be killed not only by monsters, but by other players at any time, for any reason at any location.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Like I said earlier, the game looks very promising until you get to the permadeath decision.

Let's look at permadeath with their so called 99 lives.  The fun of a MMO is developing your character.  Eventually you will lose that character if you like the game it will be just a matter of time.  So what happens then?  You start over?  No one knows you, of course that could be good if you were a bit of a nasty player.  When you get down to it, 100 deaths is nothing when you play a game you like.  Makes playing the game as risk adverse and that does not sound like much fun to me.

The basic fact of the matter, the internet is not all that stable.  Disconnect and there goes one of your lives...run into a cheater, there goes another one.  The problem with small companies like this one, cheaters take great advantage of them because they know that they do not have the resources to control them.  Just take as an example WARZ, the game is a cheatfest and the developers seem clueless to fix the problem, granted that is an extreme situation, but still, it is pertinent.

It is a shame that cheating is so rampant.  Perhaps this developer has solutions to control them, but experience says that it really takes a large support staff to handle them, which this game won't have.

So while the idea of permadeath might not sound that bad, in reality it is.

A game like this just separates the cheaters from the rest of the population, little to do with how skilled you are.

 

Take a step back, and don't be so attached to pixels.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by danwest58

Perma-death is definitely something people need to grow into. I think the immediate thought about perma-death is a "1 death and you're done' kind of thing. Sorry but this is 99 deaths and 1 more before you're done for good so when you die, don't freak out too bad. People are also SO sucked into the 'no consequences' mindset that they sometimes find it hard to see the benefits of perma-death and I am not going to lie, I had a little tough time grasping it too. What helped me was not just trying to understand its benefits but learning about ALL of the other features of the game too.

I don't think this game is going to be 100% for everyone but my piece of advice is, take a moment and read about the various features. I really think if you give it a chance, you'll fall in love with the game.

I played UO, SWG FFXI and about a dozen other MMOs.  Having harsh consequences upon death back in those days were kewl and something I had no problem with.  In todays world at almost 33 years old and having a family I will tell the developer to shove it.  I dont live in my parents basement anymore to the point I can play a game from 5pm Friday night until 9pm Sunday night non stop.  I am lucky to get 5 to 10 hours a week to play and if I am going to get a perma death and loose hundreds of hours worth of work I am not going to play that game.  [mod edit]  Just like Salem Online it's going to be for a very small niche type of player and the game will only become marginally profitable. 

Agreed and in the same boat. This game will be harsh for the working man/woman.

Perma-death is not a good idea, imagine playing a year or more and losing all of your hard work and progression. Quite frankly, this game will be a griefers wet dream. To believe somehow that this game won't be a griefer's paradise is to not understand the history of these types of games.

Think Darkfall was bad? Heh.

I love every feature mentioned except perma-death. I won't pony up my cash and a year's play just to lose everything to an a**-hat griefer group.

 

Considering their rose tinted view of the early days of Ultima Online, methinks the developers are part and parcel of the griefing mindset.  Everyone knows that murder mechanics never work, including the developers who implement them.  They merely state they exist to reduce the outrage of the sheeples in the hopes of conning them into the game for the requisite fodder that is so needed for a game like this.

Originally posted by Butch808

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Like I said earlier, the game looks very promising until you get to the permadeath decision.

Let's look at permadeath with their so called 99 lives.  The fun of a MMO is developing your character.  Eventually you will lose that character if you like the game it will be just a matter of time.  So what happens then?  You start over?  No one knows you, of course that could be good if you were a bit of a nasty player.  When you get down to it, 100 deaths is nothing when you play a game you like.  Makes playing the game as risk adverse and that does not sound like much fun to me.

The basic fact of the matter, the internet is not all that stable.  Disconnect and there goes one of your lives...run into a cheater, there goes another one.  The problem with small companies like this one, cheaters take great advantage of them because they know that they do not have the resources to control them.  Just take as an example WARZ, the game is a cheatfest and the developers seem clueless to fix the problem, granted that is an extreme situation, but still, it is pertinent.

It is a shame that cheating is so rampant.  Perhaps this developer has solutions to control them, but experience says that it really takes a large support staff to handle them, which this game won't have.

So while the idea of permadeath might not sound that bad, in reality it is.

A game like this just separates the cheaters from the rest of the population, little to do with how skilled you are.

 

Take a step back, and don't be so attached to pixels.

 

You know darn well the attachment isn't to pixels, but rather to the representative amount of effort and time spent and the potential loss of enjoyment in the game.

Originally posted by PsiKahn

Originally posted by Ozmodan

More challenged developers who think that they need perma death in a MMO to create a challenge.  Earth to developers, it does not work that way!

Game sounded great until they had to throw in the PD.  Won't fund it, nor touch it.  Waste of my and everyone else's time.

Great concept though, would fund it if they dropped the perma death feature.

I don't think the developers are employing Perma-Death to make the game more challenging.  It's main purpose is to change the mental calculus players employ in decision making and to prevent character bloat.  If you like the other features, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.  It's worth seeing how this one plays out.

I completely agree with PsiKahn .  "Mental calculus," is one of the best descriptions I've heard for the main purpose of PD.   

Originally posted by danwest58

Originally posted by GimiZigi

Originally posted by Ozmodan

More challenged developers who think that they need perma death in a MMO to create a challenge.  Earth to developers, it does not work that way!

Game sounded great until they had to throw in the PD.  Won't fund it, nor touch it.  Waste of my and everyone else's time.

Great concept though, would fund it if they dropped the perma death feature.

Perma-death is definitely something people need to grow into. I think the immediate thought about perma-death is a "1 death and you're done' kind of thing. Sorry but this is 99 deaths and 1 more before you're done for good so when you die, don't freak out too bad. People are also SO sucked into the 'no consequences' mindset that they sometimes find it hard to see the benefits of perma-death and I am not going to lie, I had a little tough time grasping it too. What helped me was not just trying to understand its benefits but learning about ALL of the other features of the game too.

I don't think this game is going to be 100% for everyone but my piece of advice is, take a moment and read about the various features. I really think if you give it a chance, you'll fall in love with the game.

I played UO, SWG FFXI and about a dozen other MMOs.  Having harsh consequences upon death back in those days were kewl and something I had no problem with.  In todays world at almost 33 years old and having a family I will tell the developer to shove it.  I dont live in my parents basement anymore to the point I can play a game from 5pm Friday night until 9pm Sunday night non stop.  I am lucky to get 5 to 10 hours a week to play and if I am going to get a perma death and loose hundreds of hours worth of work I am not going to play that game.  [mod edit]  Just like Salem Online it's going to be for a very small niche type of player and the game will only become marginally profitable. 

I am 26 and I got married, bought a house and have a family too and I probably get the same amount of time to play a week and I understand why perma-death isn't appealing to you. I used to feel the same way - your character is really your investment. I remember trying out the 'hardcore' mode in diablo and when I died after spending hours on my character, I just quit the game. Will this game offer the same feeling? Maybe, I personally would have to try the game first and see how it is but I'm pretty confident that all of the game features and what it has to provide grossly outweighs the problem of perma-death.

I just want to reiterate - this game isn't for everyone but all I say is to give it a chance.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by danwest58

Perma-death is definitely something people need to grow into. I think the immediate thought about perma-death is a "1 death and you're done' kind of thing. Sorry but this is 99 deaths and 1 more before you're done for good so when you die, don't freak out too bad. People are also SO sucked into the 'no consequences' mindset that they sometimes find it hard to see the benefits of perma-death and I am not going to lie, I had a little tough time grasping it too. What helped me was not just trying to understand its benefits but learning about ALL of the other features of the game too.

I don't think this game is going to be 100% for everyone but my piece of advice is, take a moment and read about the various features. I really think if you give it a chance, you'll fall in love with the game.

I played UO, SWG FFXI and about a dozen other MMOs.  Having harsh consequences upon death back in those days were kewl and something I had no problem with.  In todays world at almost 33 years old and having a family I will tell the developer to shove it.  I dont live in my parents basement anymore to the point I can play a game from 5pm Friday night until 9pm Sunday night non stop.  I am lucky to get 5 to 10 hours a week to play and if I am going to get a perma death and loose hundreds of hours worth of work I am not going to play that game.  [mod edit]  Just like Salem Online it's going to be for a very small niche type of player and the game will only become marginally profitable. 

Agreed and in the same boat. This game will be harsh for the working man/woman.

Perma-death is not a good idea, imagine playing a year or more and losing all of your hard work and progression. Quite frankly, this game will be a griefers wet dream. To believe somehow that this game won't be a griefer's paradise is to not understand the history of these types of games.

Think Darkfall was bad? Heh.

I love every feature mentioned except perma-death. I won't pony up my cash and a year's play just to lose everything to an a**-hat griefer group.

I never played Darkfall, though I'm aware of its reputation.  But that game didn't have PD to my knowledge, and that does change things quite a bit.  With no conning, a dedicated PKer is probably going to run through their own characters pretty quick (PD goes both ways of course).  Also reequipping won't be as quick or easy, especially if you start pissing off settlements - and you do lose standing with them for killing their citizens (I know this from their website - not sure if it came up in the interview).  

I don't have a lot of time for gaming myself, though not because of family obligations, so I don't know if I could be a high-flying warrior in a game like this.  But I think there is enough to do in the game, what with crafting, hunting, settlement politics, dungeons, etc that you can have a fulfilling experience without being that hard-core front-lines player.  And what you don't lose upon death is a knowledge of the game and friends in contacts in your settlements.

Originally posted by coleman11b
So, gathering from their screenshots. They managed to create a working prototype of a lightly forested grassland...

The working prototype they're referring to was the old build back in 2006 or whatever.  These screenshots are from the new build which they just started late last year or theresabouts.

Originally posted by Wraithone
While I wish you guys all the best of lucky, I've no interest what so ever in a free for all gankfest, especially not one that uses perma death. I've played lots of these types of games over the years, and no matter how creative the Dev's are with the system, it always ends up in an arms race with the Goonie types.

Check out this link

http://www.thewhisperingmoon.com/library#

And click on the "Griefing & PvP" book (top right corner). I think this will help aliviate your notion of this gaming being a 'free-for-all gankfest'.

In response to Wraithone...

Show me a game where this doesn't happen. Have you bothered to go to their web site and read about the features? Most games out on the market have nothing to offer the players to keep them from experiencing high end level stagnancy so the players resort to ganking and griefing to relieve their boredom while they wait for the next expansion so they can throw yet another $60 for 5 more levels they will master in a week. ToA will offer a live GM team to run real time events for players to keep them occupied and offer some real fun and challenge. If you haven't read their web site I would highly recommend it before you condemn the game. Then if you decide it isn't for you then that is ok because this game wont be for everyone.

I took a look at this so called "greifing" book on their site and sadly it just made me shake my head. Not only are the devs wearing rose colored glasses, but it seems like they have not played a single mmo in the past 10 years that allows for free pvp. I dont think they have a clue at what lenghts people go to these days to grief others. (minecraft comes to mind)

Also in many games that have pvp, guilds get powerful and orginize gankfests on players which just can not be stoped. Even in the old school games like EQ1 which I played at release we didnt have perma death. The concept of this game seems great, Im all for a harsh death penlty but the perma death, and total. seemingly ignorant view on griefing sadly turns me off from what could be a truely great game. Now if they had a pve server like all the oldschool games this game seems to try to get back to had, that would be a differnt story.

Originally posted by GimiZigi

Originally posted by Wraithone
While I wish you guys all the best of lucky, I've no interest what so ever in a free for all gankfest, especially not one that uses perma death. I've played lots of these types of games over the years, and no matter how creative the Dev's are with the system, it always ends up in an arms race with the Goonie types.

Check out this link

http://www.thewhisperingmoon.com/library#

And click on the "Griefing & PvP" book (top right corner). I think this will help aliviate your notion of this gaming being a 'free-for-all gankfest'.

Thanks. I took the time to read that book.  I'm not seeing anything in there, that I've not seen before.   In some cases, many times before.   In no case, did the systems involved keep the Goonie types from their usual pass time of ruining other peoples play experience.  As I said, I wish you all the best, but this game is obviously not for me.