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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Tab-Targetting PLEASE...

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218 posts found
  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

2/25/13 3:13:30 PM#181
Originally posted by PerfArt
Not to be overly-anecdotal, but I have never played any mmorpg other than DAoC where one similarly-equipped, equal level pc can defeat multiple enemies by simply outplaying them, or where a good 8man can defeat a zerg by outplaying them. I am not saying this is not possible in some other games. My point is that anyone claiming that DAoC's model somehow requires less "skill" (as is any of these games are fcking rocket science) has never seen a well-played toon or well-run group completely and totally annihilate, humiliate, and then /bow out to a considerably larger, equally-equipped force.

If that isn't "skill" then I don't know what is. Just statistically nigh-impossible luck, I guess.

 

+1  

The best part of this thread, including other threads, is the fact Mark Jacobs blatantly describes the combat system that will be used in Camelot Unchained in an interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxHkAJm_-0A&t=2m10s

Instead of arguing that XYZ style is better than ABC, why don't you guys that want action / aiming combat create threads that are actually constructive and post suggestions and whys to implement it?  I'm guilty of feeding this thread, just like a few other people, because I can't wrap my head around how some people have a complete misunderstanding of game design/programming, and infrastructures.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Stiler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

2/25/13 3:58:37 PM#182
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
Originally posted by PerfArt
Not to be overly-anecdotal, but I have never played any mmorpg other than DAoC where one similarly-equipped, equal level pc can defeat multiple enemies by simply outplaying them, or where a good 8man can defeat a zerg by outplaying them. I am not saying this is not possible in some other games. My point is that anyone claiming that DAoC's model somehow requires less "skill" (as is any of these games are fcking rocket science) has never seen a well-played toon or well-run group completely and totally annihilate, humiliate, and then /bow out to a considerably larger, equally-equipped force.

If that isn't "skill" then I don't know what is. Just statistically nigh-impossible luck, I guess.

 

+1  

The best part of this thread, including other threads, is the fact Mark Jacobs blatantly describes the combat system that will be used in Camelot Unchained in an interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxHkAJm_-0A&t=2m10s

Instead of arguing that XYZ style is better than ABC, why don't you guys that want action / aiming combat create threads that are actually constructive and post suggestions and whys to implement it?  I'm guilty of feeding this thread, just like a few other people, because I can't wrap my head around how some people have a complete misunderstanding of game design/programming, and infrastructures.

The way I took that, was to mean skill based in terms of A skill system, a la "use a sword, get better at sword fighting, etc.

I remember distinictly, either in that hour long interview, or in the recent podcast on massively, Mark mentions combat and talks about how it can be either more traditional or actiony, he's open to either and it depends on what the players want.

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

2/25/13 4:06:30 PM#183
@Plastic-Metal: Good point. MJ has already stated that CU won't be for everyone, and those who don't like the niche model he is aiming for have plenty of options. This is a bit of a silly debate. Still, we all like a good forum scrap, don't we? :)

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Vindicar

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 137

Dun Mock meh engliesh !

2/26/13 2:10:34 AM#184

Impressive to read so much dishonesty from every sides....

 

The "true-targeting-recquires-more-skill-than-tab-target" debate is dull and has nothing to do here. Depending on the game mechanics it could be true or absolutely wrong... some tab-target are impressively fast-paced and hard to masterize...

 

The same applys for poeples thinking that tab-targetting is better on the strategic side... what a bullshet... In the end you have total control over your avatar in the same kind of situations... I don't see how the aiming mechanics has any influence here... I could even start arguing that most tab-target game have complete broken mechanics : fireballs through hills, players and even trees in a lot of game... The use of the LOS is allways crappy and approximativ in tab target games. The most frustrating exemple of all times ? WoW arenas and running droods...You still see 2/3 of the mofo but he is considered out of LOS...

 

The only matter here is ENJOYEMENT.

So unless you find a little something to make tab-targettin' more appealin' (And I have no doubt it is completely possible) I will still and ALLWAYS prefer more actionnish-real-aimingish stuff.

 

And as for the healer point... rofl guys... because we speak of true aiming and action gameplay doesn't mean you will loose the ability to "click to target" and if indeed heals requires real aiming... GOOD THING. Most carebears over 30 years will hate me for saying so but : HEALING IS EASY AND BORING AND ALLWAYS BEEN, IT DOESN'T REQUIRE GREAT SKILLS TO BE A GOOD HEALER, IT ONLY REQUIRES DEDICATION AND DECENT GAME OVERVIEW AND UNDERSTANDING ! I allways been tank or healer in my main MMOs, not saying throwing this just like that.

Old school french hardcore whiner. Online since T4C.

I was "Namless" and "Daroot" in AO (Rk2)
Recently known as "Vindicar" (Aion (EU), SWTOR (EU), WoW (EU).
Actually Known as "Wundicar" in Age of Wushu (US)

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1854

2/26/13 3:26:18 AM#185
Originally posted by Qallidexz

My fellow DAoC warriors! So many games nowadays are moving towards the "free-form" targetting system (not to be confused with real-time combat, which is a different thing, and you can have both tab-target and real time), but I remember the glory days, where tab-targetting was all there is. Some of the newer MMO'ers tend to get it into their heads that no tab-targetting is somehow "better", because it takes more "skill". Well, running through people, jumping around them, strafing side to side, all that is just an annoyance, as the true MMO fans know, those who played DAoC, real skill comes from knowing what to do, and when to do it (spell-wise, and ability-wise) not from trying to run through your opponent (hense the /face, and /stick commands had to be implemented).

Free-form targetting does not make for fun combat, tab-targetting makes for fun combat, but without tab-targetting, it's just little kids who are used to playing Call of Duty, jumping around their opponents, and over their heads, to gain an advantage, because they're not smart enough to figure out which spells they need to cast and when, or capable of figuring out what abilities to use at the right times, so they just jump around a lot. Let's avoid this in CU, and get back to the good ole' days, you with me?

After long years of gaming and particularly MMO's ... if game does not have tab targeting I'm NOT playing it. Simple as that. I do not wish doom to other games, just saying company will not get my money. So is up to them to decide what will do.

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

2/26/13 10:24:33 AM#186
Originally posted by Vindicar

Impressive to read so much dishonesty from every sides....

 

The "true-targeting-recquires-more-skill-than-tab-target" debate is dull and has nothing to do here. Depending on the game mechanics it could be true or absolutely wrong... some tab-target are impressively fast-paced and hard to masterize...

 

The same applys for poeples thinking that tab-targetting is better on the strategic side... what a bullshet... In the end you have total control over your avatar in the same kind of situations... I don't see how the aiming mechanics has any influence here... I could even start arguing that most tab-target game have complete broken mechanics : fireballs through hills, players and even trees in a lot of game... The use of the LOS is allways crappy and approximativ in tab target games. The most frustrating exemple of all times ? WoW arenas and running droods...You still see 2/3 of the mofo but he is considered out of LOS...

 

The only matter here is ENJOYEMENT.

So unless you find a little something to make tab-targettin' more appealin' (And I have no doubt it is completely possible) I will still and ALLWAYS prefer more actionnish-real-aimingish stuff.

 

And as for the healer point... rofl guys... because we speak of true aiming and action gameplay doesn't mean you will loose the ability to "click to target" and if indeed heals requires real aiming... GOOD THING. Most carebears over 30 years will hate me for saying so but : HEALING IS EASY AND BORING AND ALLWAYS BEEN, IT DOESN'T REQUIRE GREAT SKILLS TO BE A GOOD HEALER, IT ONLY REQUIRES DEDICATION AND DECENT GAME OVERVIEW AND UNDERSTANDING ! I allways been tank or healer in my main MMOs, not saying throwing this just like that.

 

1 Player Game:  http://www.elderscrolls.com/skyrim/ 

MMO:  http://www.darkfallonline.com/

Your problem has been solved.   /end thread

Dead horse is dead.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3880

2/26/13 10:33:28 AM#187
Whatever system they implement, jumpers should have to take more damage if they're caught mid-jump with a firm thrust to their nether regions...stamp-out jumpers I say.
  Stiler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

2/26/13 2:59:17 PM#188
Originally posted by Iselin
Whatever system they implement, jumpers should have to take more damage if they're caught mid-jump with a firm thrust to their nether regions...stamp-out jumpers I say.

This is something balanced easily with a good stamina and animation system. Whereby trying to jump both drains you stamina (so if you try it in quick succession you become exhausted) and where the animation should make you slower once you jump and land it (so you're easier to hit), thus making the entire reason behind bunny hopping a moot point and thus people won't do it, unless they want to die more easily.

  Sintrix

Novice Member

Joined: 7/06/05
Posts: 53

2/26/13 6:03:03 PM#189
I used to love playing Contra on my NES, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play a side scroller game over a 3D environment.  Tab-targeting is a thing of the past, it's time to move on.  There's no need to crutch into a "feature" that was put in place because the existing technology couldn't handle free targeting on a massive scale.
  Canan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/21/10
Posts: 94

2/26/13 9:19:57 PM#190
Originally posted by Sintrix
I used to love playing Contra on my NES, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play a side scroller game over a 3D environment.  Tab-targeting is a thing of the past, it's time to move on.  There's no need to crutch into a "feature" that was put in place because the existing technology couldn't handle free targeting on a massive scale.

No.

  Smorak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/07
Posts: 62

What man is a man that does not make the world better?

2/26/13 10:07:08 PM#191
Originally posted by Sintrix
I used to love playing Contra on my NES, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play a side scroller game over a 3D environment.  Tab-targeting is a thing of the past, it's time to move on.  There's no need to crutch into a "feature" that was put in place because the existing technology couldn't handle free targeting on a massive scale.

Hell, no.

 

There's a reason way back in history they used 100s of archers to fire volleys and now each squad has 1 designated marksman:  accuracy.

Why do you want to go to iron sights when there's clearly a scope?

  CyborWolfTK

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 80

2/26/13 10:22:32 PM#192
Originally posted by Iselin
Whatever system they implement, jumpers should have to take more damage if they're caught mid-jump with a firm thrust to their nether regions...stamp-out jumpers I say.

+1,

 

   Nothing worse then jumping beans. annoying as hell.

  Stiler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

2/27/13 1:12:16 AM#193
Originally posted by Smorak
Originally posted by Sintrix
I used to love playing Contra on my NES, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play a side scroller game over a 3D environment.  Tab-targeting is a thing of the past, it's time to move on.  There's no need to crutch into a "feature" that was put in place because the existing technology couldn't handle free targeting on a massive scale.

Hell, no.

 

There's a reason way back in history they used 100s of archers to fire volleys and now each squad has 1 designated marksman:  accuracy.

Why do you want to go to iron sights when there's clearly a scope?

 

You do realize Archers actually did aim? While yes the Volley firing was an effective tactic, it didn't mean that bowmen were inept or didn't require knowledge to "aim" their bows? Good archers praticed a lot with their bows, and aiming is a big part of that.

Where do you think the term "Marksman" came from? Hint: Archers.

 

  Bent

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/04
Posts: 577

2/27/13 1:13:03 AM#194

I am fine with Tab-target.

What I miss most is /face and /follow /stick.  Fricking archers hiding inside of trees.  How they would turn and run away as I started running right at them.  I way an angry shaman.  

  rodingo

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1790

2/27/13 1:18:12 AM#195
Meh.  Whichever method they use for targeting is fine by me.  I'll just adapt like I do for every other mmo.  Not sure what the big deal is either way.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

2/27/13 7:01:34 PM#196
Originally posted by Sintrix
I used to love playing Contra on my NES, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play a side scroller game over a 3D environment.  Tab-targeting is a thing of the past, it's time to move on.  There's no need to crutch into a "feature" that was put in place because the existing technology couldn't handle free targeting on a massive scale.

Its funny how some people are so full of themselves and think that action combat is some superior thing and tab targeting is only done because of the technology.  So false.

Its *not* better.  Its different.  To some its preferable, and to others it isnt.  Neither system is inherently better, and neither system inherently gives a 'skilled' player a greater advantage.

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

2/27/13 7:19:53 PM#197
I think this has become an overly-heated topic. No matter what system CSE decides to use, I am sure that it will be both to provide a fun RvR experience and be built from the ground up to facilitate said experience. I prefer tab targetting, but that's only because DAoC is my holy grail. If CU uses FreeAim™, Hybrid1000™, TABernacle™, or any other system I will still give it a chance because I truly believe in what MJ is trying to do and that his team is probably better than us at weighing the variables that determine what will and won't work within the framework of what could potentially be the best PvP mmo since UO.

Basically, let's let them have a vision. Input is awesome. Insults are extremely un-awesome and contribute nothing. Let's build a community, not a calamity.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  User Deleted
2/27/13 7:24:41 PM#198
Originally posted by colddog04
People jump around alot in tab-targeted games.

It's no different in other games, usually because the attacks tend to be very AoE heavy.

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

2/27/13 10:13:55 PM#199
Originally posted by Canan
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by Canan
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by Canan
I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.

 

because basket weaving is just as skill based as juggling chainsaws on a tightrope.

EVERYTHING IS EQUAL!

Yes, tab targeting based games are to twitch based games as basket weaving is to juggling chainsaws on a tightrope. I'll give you points for originality but the facts are still the same - the skills (again you are making me use the term skill) which both games require are unique and should not be compared. So, stop, collaborate and listen: both genres are fun and require relatively low to average thinking and motor skills to excel. Please stop being condescending just because you prefer a particular average-level thinking process over someone else's.

 

completely wrong, from top to bottom.  

hint: everything is not equal 

 

here's an example that you might possibly be able to understand, since the other one confused you.

 

 

"brain surgery is no more complicated than finger painting"

 

 

now, lets try to avoid getting hopelessly confused here.  

i'm NOT saying tab target is finger painting.

i'm NOT saying that action combat is brain surgery

 

 

Belittling my intelligence isn't going to make your point anymore right or mine anymore wrong. I understood that your analogy didn't directly represent the two genres, I did indeed. But the point I was trying to make (which maybe I did not make clear, and I apologize) is that the requirement levels of thinking and motor skills involved in "twitch" games are just as average as the requirements in "tab-targeting" games. So, you can scream until the cows come home about the huge skill threshold dividing the two genres, but frankly neither genre requires much brain power to begin with.

It is definitely odd (in my opinion) that you can say action based games require more skill (again I am confused on what this mysterious skill is) than tab targeting games. So you are telling me that your team of 8 random FPS players would be able to take on a team of 8 experienced Dark Age of Camelot players in RvR right now and even have a chance of winning? You sir, are mistaken, there is quite the learning curve to tab targeting games and a huge amount of strategic and tactical decision making (especially in Dark Age of Camelot). In fact, I daresay that experienced Dark Age of Camelot players would have a much easier time defeating an experienced FPS team than vice versa.

Anyhow, we can go at this particular issue all day but I rather just break it down for you: these are different types of games that involve different skills (simple skills) and comparing them (as you continue to do) is going nowhere. But, please continue believing that your game genre of choice has some kind of amazing skill-curve compared to other genres. Maybe you can even make it to the Olympics.

 

no.  as you demonstrate in the next highlighted section, you did not understand the 2nd time around either.  and you probably won't understand for the 3rd and last time either, as pretty much everything you've said in this thread is pretty much wrong.

yeah, its pretty obvious you are confused.

oh really?  you're arguing with me about how they are no different.

 

last chance at trying to comprehend my point.  

according to you, Club Penguin and Starcraft require the same amount of skill.

 

The End
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i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

2/27/13 10:20:07 PM#200
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
Originally posted by PerfArt
Not to be overly-anecdotal, but I have never played any mmorpg other than DAoC where one similarly-equipped, equal level pc can defeat multiple enemies by simply outplaying them, or where a good 8man can defeat a zerg by outplaying them. I am not saying this is not possible in some other games. My point is that anyone claiming that DAoC's model somehow requires less "skill" (as is any of these games are fcking rocket science) has never seen a well-played toon or well-run group completely and totally annihilate, humiliate, and then /bow out to a considerably larger, equally-equipped force.

If that isn't "skill" then I don't know what is. Just statistically nigh-impossible luck, I guess.

 

+1  

The best part of this thread, including other threads, is the fact Mark Jacobs blatantly describes the combat system that will be used in Camelot Unchained in an interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxHkAJm_-0A&t=2m10s

Instead of arguing that XYZ style is better than ABC, why don't you guys that want action / aiming combat create threads that are actually constructive and post suggestions and whys to implement it?  I'm guilty of feeding this thread, just like a few other people, because I can't wrap my head around how some people have a complete misunderstanding of game design/programming, and infrastructures.

The way I took that, was to mean skill based in terms of A skill system, a la "use a sword, get better at sword fighting, etc.

I remember distinictly, either in that hour long interview, or in the recent podcast on massively, Mark mentions combat and talks about how it can be either more traditional or actiony, he's open to either and it depends on what the players want.

 

exactly.  in that interview he's talking about "skills" as in character stats, char progression mechanics.  such as in UO.  

not real-life/player skills.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

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