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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How quickly should your character be able to max level in a MMO game?

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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20659

2/25/13 5:51:41 PM#81
Originally posted by darkhalf357x
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Adamantine

I hate the concept of a "maxlevel".

There is no limit to what you can do in reallife, either, and a MMO is a game you can potentially play from youth to old age.

So I think levels should just get harder and harder to archieve, and mean less and less, over time.

 

Of course there is.

Can you build 1000 buildings in your life time? Probably not.

Can you win a nobel priez? Probably not .. and even if you can .. it becomes the limit.

In fact, you are limited by time. Everyone dies and you have limited amount of time to accomplish whatever you want.

Your mention of the word 'probable' in and of itself promotes the chance of success.  If you win the Nobel Peace Prize how does that become the limit?  The only limit is one's own imagination.  Taking advantage of that creativity is another question all together.

Actually be real. There is no chance of success for you to build 1000 buildsing.

If you win the nobel peace prize, there is no bigger, more prestige prize to be won. That is the limit (i.e. "top" prize to be won).

BTW, also you can win only ONCE per year. Even if you can win every year, as long as you are mortal, the total number of prize is limited.

 

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1128

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

2/25/13 8:17:03 PM#82
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by darkhalf357x
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Adamantine

I hate the concept of a "maxlevel".

There is no limit to what you can do in reallife, either, and a MMO is a game you can potentially play from youth to old age.

So I think levels should just get harder and harder to archieve, and mean less and less, over time.

 

Of course there is.

Can you build 1000 buildings in your life time? Probably not.

Can you win a nobel priez? Probably not .. and even if you can .. it becomes the limit.

In fact, you are limited by time. Everyone dies and you have limited amount of time to accomplish whatever you want.

Your mention of the word 'probable' in and of itself promotes the chance of success.  If you win the Nobel Peace Prize how does that become the limit?  The only limit is one's own imagination.  Taking advantage of that creativity is another question all together.

Actually be real. There is no chance of success for you to build 1000 buildsing.

If you win the nobel peace prize, there is no bigger, more prestige prize to be won. That is the limit (i.e. "top" prize to be won).

BTW, also you can win only ONCE per year. Even if you can win every year, as long as you are mortal, the total number of prize is limited.

 

Are you saying build buildings by myself or having a construction team build buildings?  The former is actually unrealistic, while the latter is not.  

Talking of the former would be similiar to saying that a person can't fly himself.  Those are more constraints (things you cant change) versus a limit (something that is set).

In terms of the nobel peace prize you are assuming that something bigger has to be defined by other people.  Its like trying to define success.  Its different for different people.  Someone who won the nobel peace prize may not win some 'trophy' but perhaps that have done something more where he doesnt want/need recognition.  I never limit myself to what 'other' people set.  Where would that leave innovation?

I do see your point, but mine is to think outside the box, otherwise you just limit yourself.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

2/25/13 8:33:13 PM#83

The time to reach max level is completely irrelevant.  All that matters is whether you're doing something fun.  A game could be fun where you level forever but the act of leveling is fun, and a game could be fun when you hit max level in 5 minutes.

I mean, progression is progression and getting gear out of some endgame raid is essentially just a different form of leveling up anyway.  Fixating on one tiny aspect of your character that stops progressing seems a bit short-sighted to me.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/25/13 8:46:56 PM#84
Originally posted by Axehilt

I mean, progression is progression and getting gear out of some endgame raid is essentially just a different form of leveling up anyway.  Fixating on one tiny aspect of your character that stops progressing seems a bit short-sighted to me.

Not quite. There's a rowboat, proceeding across the lake. And there's the 600HP twin outboards.

Both progress, and get there, and (presumably) it is possible to have fun doing either.

The difference lies in the duration of the journey. And in a pursuit whose sole design purpose is to consume available excess leisure time, crossing the lake in under a minute seems both non-sensical and counter-productive.

But yes, it is true that the drivers of the boat have no one to blame but themselves.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

2/25/13 9:40:43 PM#85
Originally posted by Icewhite

Not quite. There's a rowboat, proceeding across the lake. And there's the 600HP twin outboards.

Both progress, and get there, and (presumably) it is possible to have fun doing either.

The difference lies in the duration of the journey. And in a pursuit whose sole design purpose is to consume available excess leisure time, crossing the lake in under a minute seems both non-sensical and counter-productive.

But yes, it is true that the drivers of the boat have no one to blame but themselves.

What I'm describing is fun trumps both distance and duration.

If you're looking to fly to a tropic island where you'll spend 4 hours on a bike trail, you probably don't care that you won't travel very far when you get there because biking is far more enjoyable than flying.  In fact you'd probably want to minimize flight time if at all possible -- and you'd certainly want to avoid a series of connecting flights which take 8 hours to reach your destination if a single 4-hour flight will do the trick.

Distance in this case is irrelevant -- in fact it'd be better if the tropical bike trail was right next door to your house and you could only experience the short, enjoyable travel and completely avoid the dull travel.  You're not in it for the distance, but the fun.

Duration is relevant only to the degree that you're able to continue doing something fun.  It seems rare enough that a player achieves best-in-slot everything and absolutely maxes their character that we don't even have to bother discussing this possibility.

The end of leveling isn't the end of the journey: It's the start of the tropical bike trail!  You may travel a thousandth of the distance you traveled in the plane, but you're going to have 10 times as much fun.

  troublmaker

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/11
Posts: 340

2/25/13 9:46:28 PM#86

It appears to me the problem with MMOs is that they're always dangling a carrot in front of your face to keep you playing.  Instead of being fun and enjoyable games you play with your friends they're one you play because you are physically addicted.

If at all possible I'd show preference to an MMO that has absolutely no leveling at all.  A game in which you do dungeons and PvP for gear in which all of the gear of purely aesthetic.  This means no one has any advantages and balancing the game, the dungeon encounters and the PvP is quite easy.

The downside is that it would be hard to allow newer players to learn this game.  Obviously the tutorial to the game would have to illustrate what the abilities are for rapidly and then emmerse you into a giant world.  Doing single player quests, PvP, raiding, and dungeons should all be things you do with friends because you enjoy doing these things... not because there is a carrot dangling on a stick for you to chase.

The game might be better than your favourite game, however without the carrot dangling addiction factor less people would play it.

 

Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/users/thetroublmaker

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3481

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

2/26/13 1:14:21 AM#87


Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by Wolfenpride
The longer the better, assuming the game is enjoyable to begin with and has the content to keep it interesting.

Endgame is well...the end of the game as far as i'm usually concerned.



My thoughts exactly. I chose Over 6 months if the game is a good alternate realty.

Yeah... over six months of enjoyable content. A tall order, don't ya think?

You are all approaching the the subject from the wrong direction. Leveling is admittedly very addictive, but certainly not required. I can reach "the cap" within 2 days and remain entertained for months if not years.

It seems, people who debate about how long reaching the cap should last are more fixated with levels than the people who race to it.



It seems to be a very tall order, indeed :)

It is just simply 2 different desires. One is focused on the journey from start to finish. The other is focused on the destination.

I suppose if I enjoyed end-game raiding (how many raids do most games have?), PvP, daily chores... er quests, and endless gear grinds I could be entertained for longer. When I do find a good guild to join and like the people within, I do tend to stick with a game longer, but I still eventually quit. The destination just does not interest me.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Luckshmi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/05/12
Posts: 73

2/26/13 1:43:44 AM#88

tl;dr

I never max out my character unless it will be used for farming / PVP :))

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4919

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/26/13 2:50:36 AM#89
I've never maxed a character in any video game I've ever played, mmo or spg, come close but never all the way.  Even in Wow 5 years played off/on and highest was 67.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5421

2/26/13 3:17:46 AM#90
3 monther here, but you split the choices up in an odd way. I take that time as I like to enjoy the game not devour it.
  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2840

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/26/13 3:18:52 AM#91
Originally posted by bcbully
No need for  a magical number that makes all skills stronger. Skill based leveling that takes years to cap is the way to go.

About the only time I have ever agreed with you bc.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1944

2/26/13 4:11:09 AM#92
Originally posted by Rhinotones
You've just picked up a newly released MMO on its launch day. How quickly would you like to reach max level so your character is kick ass?

All this reminds me somebody going on cruise vacation with beautiful ship, great islands, ... and at same time wondering when the hell travel will be over. MMO are (should be) about TRAVEL, not getting to destination and then doing over and over instances, raids, ... Such peopel then will complain about everything and they are cause for so many failures in past years for otherwise enjoyable games.

I never touched in past single instance before leveling all alts to max and enjoying travel.

  Dzone

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/17/12
Posts: 319

2/26/13 9:04:01 AM#93

I picked 6+ months, cause i like to just play one job, i dont wanna be everything. Plus gives the developers plenty of time to add new content to the game. Keeps ppl from finishing an MMO. Plus you have time to learn your job, and ppl will come to appreciate you for filling a certain role in parties. 

  azarhal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 589

2/26/13 9:17:49 AM#94

I selected +6 months as well (as long as character progression and content is fun). Although, I think the best would be no endgame level cap concept (see EvE for example and yes it's probably more a sandbox thing).

Although, some people still take over 6 months to level a single character in a game like Guild Wars 2 (not in-game time). So they might ge frustrated with slower progression. The other issues is that themeparks games have fast levelling because they have "no content". Quests giving more XP mean less quests to create and farming mobs to gain XP is so "last decade".

  StonesDK

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1845

2/26/13 9:19:52 AM#95
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by Wolfenpride
The longer the better, assuming the game is enjoyable to begin with and has the content to keep it interesting.

 

Endgame is well...the end of the game as far as i'm usually concerned.



My thoughts exactly. I chose Over 6 months if the game is a good alternate realty.

Yeah... over six months of enjoyable content. A tall order, don't ya think?

 

You are all approaching the the subject from the wrong direction. Leveling is admittedly very addictive, but certainly not required. I can reach "the cap" within 2 days and remain entertained for months if not years.

It seems, people who debate about how long reaching the cap should last are more fixated with levels than the people who race to it.



It seems to be a very tall order, indeed :)

 

It is just simply 2 different desires. One is focused on the journey from start to finish. The other is focused on the destination.

I suppose if I enjoyed end-game raiding (how many raids do most games have?), PvP, daily chores... er quests, and endless gear grinds I could be entertained for longer. When I do find a good guild to join and like the people within, I do tend to stick with a game longer, but I still eventually quit. The destination just does not interest me.

I'm surprised this even have to be explained

  TommiJyurro

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 51

It's mostly s#!% in a can, unless it's s#!% on a wire.Why are you still playing with s#!%?

2/26/13 9:40:24 AM#96

Levels are fine, though I do not like them- why? My GF won't play WoW or anything else with levels after she hits the ceiling.  With today's technology, level caps should no longer exist.  Do you expect me to believe that a method does not exist to keep levels and bonuses rolling in a game, ad infinitum?  Really?  

But therein lies the double edged blade: stacking bonuses would enable some hard-core gamers to reach unforeseen heights, likely bot-fueled and progressed for a while, but meh, levels are lame anyway.

Anything new here? Hmmm... Nope. o/

  Adamantine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3394

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

2/26/13 10:48:35 AM#97
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Adamantine

I hate the concept of a "maxlevel".

There is no limit to what you can do in reallife, either, and a MMO is a game you can potentially play from youth to old age.

If the players would slow down to a rate where the developers could stay ahead, the cap could go.

Ha. Sorry, still laughiing.

It would just be enough that level gets more and more meaningless. But there shouldnt be a specific endgame. There should be raid bosses for early levels already. And I'm against tiered itemization, too. You should be able to use ingredients for lowlevel items in highlevel items as well, just extremely much more of them.

  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

2/26/13 10:59:24 AM#98
I still think 3-6 months is appropriate. 3 months is a quarter of a year, 6 months is a half of a year. Any more than that would drive off more impatient players and players who can't devote much time to their character. The player's time input must be lead to some kind of accomplishment or character progression.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  adam_nox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2088

2/26/13 11:06:28 AM#99

the real question is, when should someone be able to participate in the 90% of the post release content the devs devote themselves to labeled 'the endgame'.  And by 'be able', I don't mean technically, I mean practically.  Every mmo so far has failed at delivering the ability to participate in endgame at day 1, which is when I believe people should be able to participate, even if they have no friends and no guild, they should find it easy and accessible to get their money's worth.

 

As for character power progression, mmos should stop focusing on that.  It shouldn't take long to reach the end of vertical power progression, and then if people want to respec, they can regrind it rather than just being handed it.  These games that take weeks and months to stop the very first part of power progression (because after that, the endgame usually focuses on a new kind of power progression) are ridiculous in my mind. 

 

MMOs should be about living in a world, not participating in a race.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

2/26/13 12:12:00 PM#100
Originally posted by adam_nox

the real question is, when should someone be able to participate in the 90% of the post release content the devs devote themselves to labeled 'the endgame'.  And by 'be able', I don't mean technically, I mean practically.  Every mmo so far has failed at delivering the ability to participate in endgame at day 1, which is when I believe people should be able to participate, even if they have no friends and no guild, they should find it easy and accessible to get their money's worth. 

As for character power progression, mmos should stop focusing on that.  It shouldn't take long to reach the end of vertical power progression, and then if people want to respec, they can regrind it rather than just being handed it.  These games that take weeks and months to stop the very first part of power progression (because after that, the endgame usually focuses on a new kind of power progression) are ridiculous in my mind. 

 MMOs should be about living in a world, not participating in a race.

Let's not toss around the term "MMO" if what you meant is MMORPG.

Planetside (and to a lesser degree Planetside 2) enabled players to be completely competitive (practically, not just technically) on day 1.  It was a MMOFPS.

But again: the answer is still that it doesn't matter when you can participate in endgame content.  All that matters is whether the content you're able to do at any given point is fun.

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