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General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "US free-to-play audience outnumbers pay-to-play 6 to 1"

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350 posts found
  BeansnBread

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5542

2/24/13 5:26:06 AM#141
Originally posted by taus01
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by taus01

 

This so called satistic tries to suggest that the F2P market is bigger and more successful. Well, thats actually complete rubbish. Of cause there are more players on F2P games but that has nothing to do with success or failure. Both models are equally successful in terms of money made.

What you have to look at is the REAL numbers in terms of MONEY made from games in both revenue models.

In 2012 the US had roughly 50 Million players of which 23 million payed in some form, be it monthly fees or item shops. The top countries had a total revenue of $3.1 billion for P2P and $3.4 billion for F2P. This is 50% of the global market.

 

Check your facts people.

The F2P market IS bigger. And it appears to be slightly more successful from a revenue standpoint based on the information you provided. And it's rate of growth has been much faster than P2P games which are actually in decline.

 

I mean, I'm not sure why you would call it complete rubbish when the stuff you linked only helps support that F2P makes slightly more than P2P.  

The difference is minimal. The OP and the statistic he linked suggests a 6 to 1 difference. That is simply NOT TRUE. Why you would even argue this is baffling.

The statistic he linked said the F2P audience was bigger. And it is. Why you would even argue that point is baffling.

 

Actually, you attempted to twist what the article was saying. They were talking about the size of the popualtion that plays and you decided to change the subject to revenue. But the audience is much larger for F2P than it is for P2P. According to the article, it is 6 to 1 right now.

 

Why do you have issue with that fact? They make a similar amount of money currently (F2P slightly leading), but the audience for one is way, way bigger. P2P is in decline and F2P is still growing. Even in the article it states that the size of the audience isn't necessarily what determines success. However, I am beginning to doubt you even read the article.

 

 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1801

"I shall take your position into consideration"

2/24/13 5:26:46 AM#142

If you do not mind to sacrifice some quality in order to save some cash, you probably go with F2P game (or B2P as some people refer to F2P with box price).

I will always gladly pay the subscription for a quality game.

The F2P numbers will be prevailing as there are tons of rather weak games and only a few which are good enough to justify subs.

I wonder why should something that keeps generating costs in order to be functional be free. I despise people who demand it.

 

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  allendale5

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 125

2/24/13 5:45:23 AM#143

So many people are responding to this thread with their opinion of f2p vs p2p, yet that is not even the point the OP was making; he/she was just stating that the f2p beat the p2p in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.

I, for one, am surprised that the f2p games beat the p2p games in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.  I am also wondering how that was calculated and what this means for the state of the MMO as we know it. 

  BeansnBread

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5542

2/24/13 5:49:32 AM#144
Originally posted by allendale5

So many people are responding to this thread with their opinion of f2p vs p2p, yet that is not even the point the OP was making; he/she was just stating that the f2p beat the p2p in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.

I, for one, am surprised that the f2p games beat the p2p games in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.  I am also wondering how that was calculated and what this means for the state of the MMO as we know it. 

No, the article was not talking about revenue. It briefly mentioned that F2P revenue was higher than P2P revenue in 2012. The article was talking about "active users." F2P active users, according to the article, have a 6 to 1 lead on P2P active users.

 

Read it again here:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  greenreen

Elite Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1428

2/24/13 9:40:20 AM#145
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by allendale5

So many people are responding to this thread with their opinion of f2p vs p2p, yet that is not even the point the OP was making; he/she was just stating that the f2p beat the p2p in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.

I, for one, am surprised that the f2p games beat the p2p games in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.  I am also wondering how that was calculated and what this means for the state of the MMO as we know it. 

No, the article was not talking about revenue. It briefly mentioned that F2P revenue was higher than P2P revenue in 2012. The article was talking about "active users." F2P active users, according to the article, have a 6 to 1 lead on P2P active users.

 

Read it again here:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

How many people bought the study - not me. I doubt anyone here has but here we have grand opinions.

Here's mine.

On one of the pages they said they studies just over 1m users, that is the leftovers in the candy bowl in this market. One million players is nothing.

Let's pretend everything is true for those of us that didn't buy the study - all of us.

If they don't have higher revenue with 6 times the amount of people playing they are doing something wrong.

I counted up the free games versus the paid games on the site once, less than 10% of them were even offering subscription only.

I don't doubt the games make money. I doubt it will last.

That's the key is how long will one person support 5 other people. When do they reach their satiation point and say, I have bought enough pixels and now I'm done. I think the number is shrinking because I see posts all the time labeling games pay to win. The monthly ARPU has always been stated as somewhere from .05-3.00 per person. That's what free players want to pay monthly. Without their subsidizing players - they can't be sustained. Those people have a finite lifetime and attention span. They are not going to pay thousands yearly to play a game, at some point something is going to interfere with that, real life expenses or interest level. Especially when each new year brings 20 more titles to move on to with enhanced things.

I see people say all the time that forum people are the minority in the group. I quote forum users at less than 5% of the overall population. What do people always say about forum users - don't listen to them, they are the fringe. Not in the case of free games though. When you base the entire stability of a payment model on what the fringe do - it doesn't make sense. If people want to pay 3.00 at most for a game monthly that fit into the non-sub gaming market then they just don't fit the demographic. There has been a payment model created to TRY to fit them into the scene. The only reason they fit is because grampy warbucks pays for their gaming. What happens when grampy decides to change games. When less than  10% of your population pays for 90% of your revenue, it's a big, big deal when grampy warbucks leaves - even 20 of them leaving for greener pastures could kill a game. The freeloaders don't pay attention to that and continue trotting along thinking things really are free and that they fit this gamer demographic. If you don't pay the devs enough to eat, I know that is not a sustainable product, no product in history has ever only sold to less than 10% of the audience but been given to 100% with success. Once your grampy warbucks leave, your game is through. 

I think one thing they did right with free games was play the bandwagon game. They saw people mentioning population and how it can hurt games. They know from trends that more people doing something makes people curious to try it or see what is greener grass beyond the fence. They used us against us. Our own perceptions that more people somewhere makes something valuable - hello, social media. I won't get on a rant about that one but wow, could I. Anyway, they created a market for anyone to join in just so that the sheep follow each other on each new title, throwing them away like one night stands. That's why you don't see innovation, that's why every game is like the one before it. These are products made to garner the highest population asap. Like begets like and that's what they plan for. So many say - I'm the content when I'm playing for nothing. Talk about big heads but they are right in one way. The more they artificially boost the population, the more they bring the possible money closer. See, it's no fun to spend a bunch of money in a game and show off without little sheeple around to praise you and be jealous of what you have. Your grampy warbucks has no interest in buying everything in a game when there are only 2 people to show it off to so they follow you while you only exist when they stay. By these numbers grampy warbucks is pretty vain, they need 5 people to see what they do for it to have any value. Free players are vain too, they think that their mere presence should escape the price of admission. It's a lovely little co-dependence, for now.

All this tells me is that 5 freeloaders aren't in my sub game (if i even trust their number of a whopping million people reviewed). I won't complain that they aren't riding my tails, who needs someone not pulling their weight in their life to be closer to my stable of "can make 15 bucks a month". Enjoy your free ride, just don't expect it to last when grampy warbucks has a heart attack. According to the numbers offered here, for every 1 of the grampy warbucks that die off or change games, 5 of you nobodys have to go too. There are people in this world that live off others and people that don't. Why should we be surprised it made it into gaming. She exists as the 5 kids with different baby daddies as a baby making machine on Maury and as the boy living in dad's basement because he can't find a job. Let's reword that, no job is GOOD enough for him, they don't kiss his butt for showing up to work though he refused to gain any marketable skills or go to school. Those people are out there, they live their lives in YOLO mode and expect someone to care for them. They also frequently say they are "living life to the fullest" - the clearest words I've ever heard for being a loser in life. I am not the one they seek for that pleasure. I'm sticking with my kind that think 15 a month is nothingsauce to their budget. The games I play will always have an entry fee because it serves an excellent purpose. Someone is going to pay my devs to make content and it is each player there. That way each player has equal say in debate topics and each player can expect the same game.

 

 

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

2/24/13 11:52:27 AM#146

Only half related, but something for pro freeloaders to think about:

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11920

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

2/24/13 1:11:00 PM#147
Originally posted by greenreen


On one of the pages they said they studies just over 1m users, that is the leftovers in the candy bowl in this market. One million players is nothing.

1,000,000 is a more than reasonable sample size.

That's the key is how long will one person support 5 other people. When do they reach their satiation point and say, I have bought enough pixels and now I'm done. I think the number is shrinking because I see posts all the time labeling games pay to win.

The forums are in no way any indication of the average gamer. If anything they are a subset of a subset.

The monthly ARPU has always been stated as somewhere from .05-3.00 per person. That's what free players want to pay monthly.

No, free players want to pay nothing monthly. That's why we call them 'free players'.

Without their subsidizing players - they can't be sustained. Those people have a finite lifetime and attention span. They are not going to pay thousands yearly to play a game, at some point something is going to interfere with that, real life expenses or interest level. Especially when each new year brings 20 more titles to move on to with enhanced things.

You are basing that on two false premises:

  • that revenue comes solely from whales
  • that paying players only churn out with no acquisition of new ones

 

I see people say all the time that forum people are the minority in the group. I quote forum users at less than 5% of the overall population.

Sounds about right.

What do people always say about forum users - don't listen to them, they are the fringe. Not in the case of free games though. When you base the entire stability of a payment model on what the fringe do - it doesn't make sense.

Again, you are basing your conclusion on a false premise, in this case that the business model is being based on any kind of fringe group.

If people want to pay 3.00 at most for a game monthly that fit into the non-sub gaming market then they just don't fit the demographic. There has been a payment model created to TRY to fit them into the scene. The only reason they fit is because grampy warbucks pays for their gaming. What happens when grampy decides to change games. When less than  10% of your population pays for 90% of your revenue, it's a big, big deal when grampy warbucks leaves - even 20 of them leaving for greener pastures could kill a game. The freeloaders don't pay attention to that and continue trotting along thinking things really are free and that they fit this gamer demographic. If you don't pay the devs enough to eat, I know that is not a sustainable product, no product in history has ever only sold to less than 10% of the audience but been given to 100% with success. Once your grampy warbucks leave, your game is through. 

This is based on the same false premises that you based the previous statements on (no acquisition, whale-only revenue). Also, ARPU is not a number that anyone is paying. There's no 3-dollar gamer demographic. ARPU is just the revenue divided by the entire playerbase.

What you might want to do is read up on the business model more because I don't think you quite understand it as well as you think you do. Here are some links.
  • http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-08-25-how-to-monetize-of-free-to-play-games
  • http://firm-guide.com/2012/the-rise-of-the-free-to-play-business-model-what-does-it-mean-for-consumers/
  • http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/03/16/arpu-vs-arppu/
  • http://www.iesherpa.com/?p=618

 

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

2/24/13 1:12:33 PM#148
Originally posted by allendale5

So many people are responding to this thread with their opinion of f2p vs p2p, yet that is not even the point the OP was making; he/she was just stating that the f2p beat the p2p in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.

I, for one, am surprised that the f2p games beat the p2p games in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.  I am also wondering how that was calculated and what this means for the state of the MMO as we know it. 

  Its not that hard to see, really.  They don't need tons of buyers, but they do need tons of players to net enough buyers to push them over what P2P makes.  By being free and accessible, they get a large player volume...if not outright then over time for sure.  A game like WoW may have 9 million subs, but a game like Perfect world has probably seen WAYYYY more unique users than that.  Even if the concurrent is only a few hundred thousand, of which many constantly bleed out and get replaced, its feeding itself off each new user and their potential sales.  Some of those sales are astronomical. 

  I covered what that means for the market earlier.  It means that P2P needs to pull its head out of its bum and become more accessible.  Stop making boxes.  Digital sales only, free trial month or till level 20, and xp boosts for inviting friends.  In fact, make the core game free...as well as its expansions.  Survive off your retained subs and vanity cash shop items.  No one here hates vanity shops.  We hate the REST of that crap in those shops, something a P2P would want to avoid anyway.  There is no reason that a game cannot be successful this way.  It requires a change in how things are budgeted.  You can't drive into this with massive investor overhead, and that is a good thing.  These studios need to find other ways to get involved.  Kickstarter is one way, the "alpha/beta cheap sub" is another.  Both of those could cut the investor overhead, which would give them more time to make money back to pay them off.

  Neither are even needed for the larger studios, each of which has enough bank to get that plan rolling.  The point is, they need to get cheaper fast because they are losing market share at an alarming rate, and for obvious reasons.

  BeansnBread

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5542

2/24/13 1:18:07 PM#149
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by allendale5

So many people are responding to this thread with their opinion of f2p vs p2p, yet that is not even the point the OP was making; he/she was just stating that the f2p beat the p2p in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.

I, for one, am surprised that the f2p games beat the p2p games in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.  I am also wondering how that was calculated and what this means for the state of the MMO as we know it. 

No, the article was not talking about revenue. It briefly mentioned that F2P revenue was higher than P2P revenue in 2012. The article was talking about "active users." F2P active users, according to the article, have a 6 to 1 lead on P2P active users.

 

Read it again here:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

How many people bought the study - not me. I doubt anyone here has but here we have grand opinions.

Here's mine.

On one of the pages they said they studies just over 1m users, that is the leftovers in the candy bowl in this market. One million players is nothing.

Let's pretend everything is true for those of us that didn't buy the study - all of us.

If they don't have higher revenue with 6 times the amount of people playing they are doing something wrong.

I counted up the free games versus the paid games on the site once, less than 10% of them were even offering subscription only.

I don't doubt the games make money. I doubt it will last.

That's the key is how long will one person support 5 other people. When do they reach their satiation point and say, I have bought enough pixels and now I'm done. I think the number is shrinking because I see posts all the time labeling games pay to win. The monthly ARPU has always been stated as somewhere from .05-3.00 per person. That's what free players want to pay monthly. Without their subsidizing players - they can't be sustained. Those people have a finite lifetime and attention span. They are not going to pay thousands yearly to play a game, at some point something is going to interfere with that, real life expenses or interest level. Especially when each new year brings 20 more titles to move on to with enhanced things.

I see people say all the time that forum people are the minority in the group. I quote forum users at less than 5% of the overall population. What do people always say about forum users - don't listen to them, they are the fringe. Not in the case of free games though. When you base the entire stability of a payment model on what the fringe do - it doesn't make sense. If people want to pay 3.00 at most for a game monthly that fit into the non-sub gaming market then they just don't fit the demographic. There has been a payment model created to TRY to fit them into the scene. The only reason they fit is because grampy warbucks pays for their gaming. What happens when grampy decides to change games. When less than  10% of your population pays for 90% of your revenue, it's a big, big deal when grampy warbucks leaves - even 20 of them leaving for greener pastures could kill a game. The freeloaders don't pay attention to that and continue trotting along thinking things really are free and that they fit this gamer demographic. If you don't pay the devs enough to eat, I know that is not a sustainable product, no product in history has ever only sold to less than 10% of the audience but been given to 100% with success. Once your grampy warbucks leave, your game is through. 

I think one thing they did right with free games was play the bandwagon game. They saw people mentioning population and how it can hurt games. They know from trends that more people doing something makes people curious to try it or see what is greener grass beyond the fence. They used us against us. Our own perceptions that more people somewhere makes something valuable - hello, social media. I won't get on a rant about that one but wow, could I. Anyway, they created a market for anyone to join in just so that the sheep follow each other on each new title, throwing them away like one night stands. That's why you don't see innovation, that's why every game is like the one before it. These are products made to garner the highest population asap. Like begets like and that's what they plan for. So many say - I'm the content when I'm playing for nothing. Talk about big heads but they are right in one way. The more they artificially boost the population, the more they bring the possible money closer. See, it's no fun to spend a bunch of money in a game and show off without little sheeple around to praise you and be jealous of what you have. Your grampy warbucks has no interest in buying everything in a game when there are only 2 people to show it off to so they follow you while you only exist when they stay. By these numbers grampy warbucks is pretty vain, they need 5 people to see what they do for it to have any value. Free players are vain too, they think that their mere presence should escape the price of admission. It's a lovely little co-dependence, for now.

All this tells me is that 5 freeloaders aren't in my sub game (if i even trust their number of a whopping million people reviewed). I won't complain that they aren't riding my tails, who needs someone not pulling their weight in their life to be closer to my stable of "can make 15 bucks a month". Enjoy your free ride, just don't expect it to last when grampy warbucks has a heart attack. According to the numbers offered here, for every 1 of the grampy warbucks that die off or change games, 5 of you nobodys have to go too. There are people in this world that live off others and people that don't. Why should we be surprised it made it into gaming. She exists as the 5 kids with different baby daddies as a baby making machine on Maury and as the boy living in dad's basement because he can't find a job. Let's reword that, no job is GOOD enough for him, they don't kiss his butt for showing up to work though he refused to gain any marketable skills or go to school. Those people are out there, they live their lives in YOLO mode and expect someone to care for them. They also frequently say they are "living life to the fullest" - the clearest words I've ever heard for being a loser in life. I am not the one they seek for that pleasure. I'm sticking with my kind that think 15 a month is nothingsauce to their budget. The games I play will always have an entry fee because it serves an excellent purpose. Someone is going to pay my devs to make content and it is each player there. That way each player has equal say in debate topics and each player can expect the same game.

Jesus. The article was about how F2P games have a larger audience than P2P games. It was just attempting to state facts.

 

One million users isn't big enough for you? Because you see posts about pay to win, you think F2P is shrinking? You can't get more anecdotal than that. You want to compare F2P gaming with welfare or some kind of blight on society in general? Crazysauce.

 

Some of the stuff you say makes sense, but other stuff is just way out there and based on nothing at all. You just sound bitter. You act like the F2P world is fighting against you and you will do everything in your power to pay your share! I mean, Jesus, those sub games really have a grip on you. They have really managed to convince you that you are "doing the right thing." Does it make you feel good to pay them money every month?

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  greenreen

Elite Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1428

2/24/13 1:33:25 PM#150
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by allendale5

So many people are responding to this thread with their opinion of f2p vs p2p, yet that is not even the point the OP was making; he/she was just stating that the f2p beat the p2p in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.

I, for one, am surprised that the f2p games beat the p2p games in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.  I am also wondering how that was calculated and what this means for the state of the MMO as we know it. 

No, the article was not talking about revenue. It briefly mentioned that F2P revenue was higher than P2P revenue in 2012. The article was talking about "active users." F2P active users, according to the article, have a 6 to 1 lead on P2P active users.

 

Read it again here:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

...snip

Jesus. The article was about how F2P games have a larger audience than P2P games. It was just attempting to state facts.

 

One million users isn't big enough for you? Because you see posts about pay to win, you think F2P is shrinking? You can't get more anecdotal than that. You want to compare F2P gaming with welfare or some kind of blight on society in general? Crazysauce.

 

Some of the stuff you say makes sense, but other stuff is just way out there and based on nothing at all. You just sound bitter. You act like the F2P world is fighting against you and you will do everything in your power to pay your share! I mean, Jesus, those sub games really have a grip on you. They have really managed to convince you that you are "doing the right thing." Does it make you feel good to pay them money every month?

This is bigger than you think. It's akin to political debate in the opinions held. This isn't the first discussion on it. There are people around here that act like free games are the greatest thing since sliced bread and drop studies like this to "prove" it. They make these debates exist because they walk around flaunting not paying anything as if it's a model that can last forever while saying from the other side of their mouths that they pay nothing. Has any product in history ever sold because someone gave 90% of it away.

Maybe if you were a programmer you would have the same mentality as me. I eat everyday because I get paid to program. I get people asking me for freebies all the time. Is my time not valuable? Are my student loan payments "free"?  I put the same value on other programmers' time and effort. There are people that always ask for free web work from me, free information about their website and free things. I know that what I do deserves payment. I believe the same of other programmers. When I pay someone to make my game it's no different than people that pay me to make their website.

Since you don't understand my personality - this might help you understand why I speak up on what I find repulsive and any pitfalls involved with it. I won't apologize for who I am. http://typelogic.com/intj.html You can disagree but come with some reasons is all I ask, not sentimental claptrap like - some people can't afford it - it's free like everything on the internet. Boohoo, I can't play 15 games and afford to pay them all - then pick the best one and get the 300 of them off the market that aren't making people happy. Quit throwing users at things that don't need to be there just because you want to keep searching for a better one. Free players are the forever singles, as I've stated before - monogamy is a foreign word to them. They don't want to work at anything, they want 100% graphics and 100% perfection or they move on, they make the genre vapid. They need something to look real to replace their horrible life. Take it elsewhere, I don't need to be reminded of your inadequacies all the time in my games. I don't want to wonder if the dingleberry next to me is paying the game or not to be there. I don't want to imagine that there are people in the game that think they should get regular content updates for nothing in return but a warm seat. These games are not charity and neither is the internet, you knew that when it cost something to come online.  The internet isn't all free and never was supposed to be. You pay to connect and that isn't the end of it. It's not a hobby for the destitute nor the services stemming from it.

For all I care, people that want to play free games can go pick up sticks and rocks and play cowboys and indians in the woods. That's a free game. Tainting MMOs with the need to be free to satisfy slackers that want to be involved in grown folks bidness but can't afford it can head on down the road to cheapo town.

  Etherignis

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 242

2/24/13 1:33:26 PM#151
Yeah f2p suxs, everything get broken  for all the f2p leeches. Thank God SE hasnt adopted f2p for ffxiv.
  BeansnBread

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5542

2/24/13 2:02:16 PM#152
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by allendale5

So many people are responding to this thread with their opinion of f2p vs p2p, yet that is not even the point the OP was making; he/she was just stating that the f2p beat the p2p in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.

I, for one, am surprised that the f2p games beat the p2p games in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.  I am also wondering how that was calculated and what this means for the state of the MMO as we know it. 

No, the article was not talking about revenue. It briefly mentioned that F2P revenue was higher than P2P revenue in 2012. The article was talking about "active users." F2P active users, according to the article, have a 6 to 1 lead on P2P active users.

 

Read it again here:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

...snip

Jesus. The article was about how F2P games have a larger audience than P2P games. It was just attempting to state facts.

 

One million users isn't big enough for you? Because you see posts about pay to win, you think F2P is shrinking? You can't get more anecdotal than that. You want to compare F2P gaming with welfare or some kind of blight on society in general? Crazysauce.

 

Some of the stuff you say makes sense, but other stuff is just way out there and based on nothing at all. You just sound bitter. You act like the F2P world is fighting against you and you will do everything in your power to pay your share! I mean, Jesus, those sub games really have a grip on you. They have really managed to convince you that you are "doing the right thing." Does it make you feel good to pay them money every month?

This is bigger than you think. It's akin to political debate in the opinions held. This isn't the first discussion on it. There are people around here that act like free games are the greatest thing since sliced bread and drop studies like this to "prove" it. They make these debates exist because they walk around flaunting not paying anything as if it's a model that can last forever while saying from the other side of their mouths that they pay nothing. Has any product in history ever sold because someone gave 90% of it away.

Maybe if you were a programmer you would have the same mentality as me. I eat everyday because I get paid to program. I get people asking me for freebies all the time. Is my time not valuable? I put the same value on other programmers' time and effort. There are people that always ask for free web work from me, free information about their website and free things. I know that what I do deserves payment. I believe the same of other programmers. When I pay someone to make my game it's no different than people that pay me to make their website.

Since you don't understand my personality - this might help you understand why I speak up on what I find repulsive and any pitfalls involved with it. I won't apologize for who I am. http://typelogic.com/intj.html You can disagree but come with some reasons is all I ask, not sentimental claptrap like - some people can't afford it - it's free like everything on the internet. The internet isn't all free and never was supposed to be. You pay to connect and that isn't the end of it. It's not a hobby for the destitute nor the services stemming from it.

The problem is your reasoning isn't reasoning at all. It is an emotional response. What happens in your life - the people that ask you to work for free (a very strange phenomenon) - has no bearing on the discussion.

 

Do you think that the programmers of studios that develop F2P games are not getting paid? If anything, F2P has saved many PAID developer jobs after games have gone F2P.

 

You don't sound like an INTJ profile to me because you don't actually have any expertise in the payment model area. You can help me with programming, but you don't have the expertise required to make the kinds of claims you are making. You are using anecdotal evidence and opinion to support your "facts." The "does it work?" sniff test is clouded by opinion. That the F2P audience is larger than the P2P audience is a fact. And it makes logical sense since F2P is... free.

 

Perhaps F2P isn't always going to have the largest audience like you claim to know for a fact in your other post. But it is currently growing much faster than P2P in both revenue and audience. There are pros and cons to both models, but I see it as a personal preference in the end. I personally find myself paying for some games and not others.

 

PS2 - Bought 2000 station cash for a couple of weapons - no entry fee.

GW2 - paid only for box but also bought a lot of store items with in game gold - box fee.

EVE - pay monthly when I play and get pretty much everything  - sub, can also buy sub with in game cash.

WoW - pay monthly when I play and get pretty much everything - box + sub.

 

PS2 is not a blight on gaming. LotRO is not an evil entity that destroys the system. And WoW is certainly not the savior of payment models as we know it.

 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  MMOGamer71

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 1516

2/24/13 2:08:37 PM#153
Originally posted by nariusseldon

http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

"If you were to look at the growth of the audience alone, the market for F2P games is substantially larger than that for pay-to-play. Six times larger, in fact."

"Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012."

"So, yes, it would appear that F2P may be a viable revenue model, partly because of the large number of gamers it attracts. But traffic alone is not a definitive measure of success. Overall spending may follow a very different trend depending on a game’s life cycle, player base and genre.

The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

 

 

Probably because those released as subscription were not worthy of being a subscription based game.

  greenreen

Elite Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1428

2/24/13 2:38:41 PM#154
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by allendale5

So many people are responding to this thread with their opinion of f2p vs p2p, yet that is not even the point the OP was making; he/she was just stating that the f2p beat the p2p in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.

I, for one, am surprised that the f2p games beat the p2p games in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.  I am also wondering how that was calculated and what this means for the state of the MMO as we know it. 

No, the article was not talking about revenue. It briefly mentioned that F2P revenue was higher than P2P revenue in 2012. The article was talking about "active users." F2P active users, according to the article, have a 6 to 1 lead on P2P active users.

 

Read it again here:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

...snip

Jesus. The article was about how F2P games have a larger audience than P2P games. It was just attempting to state facts.

 

One million users isn't big enough for you? Because you see posts about pay to win, you think F2P is shrinking? You can't get more anecdotal than that. You want to compare F2P gaming with welfare or some kind of blight on society in general? Crazysauce.

 

Some of the stuff you say makes sense, but other stuff is just way out there and based on nothing at all. You just sound bitter. You act like the F2P world is fighting against you and you will do everything in your power to pay your share! I mean, Jesus, those sub games really have a grip on you. They have really managed to convince you that you are "doing the right thing." Does it make you feel good to pay them money every month?

This is bigger than you think. It's akin to political debate in the opinions held. This isn't the first discussion on it. There are people around here that act like free games are the greatest thing since sliced bread and drop studies like this to "prove" it. They make these debates exist because they walk around flaunting not paying anything as if it's a model that can last forever while saying from the other side of their mouths that they pay nothing. Has any product in history ever sold because someone gave 90% of it away.

Maybe if you were a programmer you would have the same mentality as me. I eat everyday because I get paid to program. I get people asking me for freebies all the time. Is my time not valuable? I put the same value on other programmers' time and effort. There are people that always ask for free web work from me, free information about their website and free things. I know that what I do deserves payment. I believe the same of other programmers. When I pay someone to make my game it's no different than people that pay me to make their website.

Since you don't understand my personality - this might help you understand why I speak up on what I find repulsive and any pitfalls involved with it. I won't apologize for who I am. http://typelogic.com/intj.html You can disagree but come with some reasons is all I ask, not sentimental claptrap like - some people can't afford it - it's free like everything on the internet. The internet isn't all free and never was supposed to be. You pay to connect and that isn't the end of it. It's not a hobby for the destitute nor the services stemming from it.

The problem is your reasoning isn't reasoning at all. It is an emotional response. What happens in your life - the people that ask you to work for free (a very strange phenomenon) - has no bearing on the discussion.

 

Do you think that the programmers of studios that develop F2P games are not getting paid? If anything, F2P has saved many PAID developer jobs after games have gone F2P.

 

You don't sound like an INTJ profile to me because you don't actually have any expertise in the payment model area. You can help me with programming, but you don't have the expertise required to make the kinds of claims you are making. You are using anecdotal evidence and opinion to support your "facts." The "does it work?" sniff test is clouded by opinion. That the F2P audience is larger than the P2P audience is a fact. And it makes logical sense since F2P is... free.

 

Perhaps F2P isn't always going to have the largest audience like you claim to know for a fact in your other post. But it is currently growing much faster than P2P in both revenue and audience. There are pros and cons to both models, but I see it as a personal preference in the end. I personally find myself paying for some games and not others.

 

PS2 - Bought 2000 station cash for a couple of weapons - no entry fee.

GW2 - paid only for box but also bought a lot of store items with in game gold - box fee.

EVE - pay monthly when I play and get pretty much everything  - sub, can also buy sub with in game cash.

WoW - pay monthly when I play and get pretty much everything - box + sub.

 

PS2 is not a blight on gaming. LotRO is not an evil entity that destroys the system. And WoW is certainly not the savior of payment models as we know it.

 

Incorrect.

Logic is as stated.

I expect to be paid for programming - I expect to pay others for programming. Nothing emotional about that. This is a skill just like a plumber earns. I don't work on my own pipes, I pay others to bring in their expertise. I would never have the nerve to call them up and say - it's broken - can you fix it for free.

There is no logic breach.

F2P is not free, someone is paying for it. Someone is not paying the same for it, that is how I know the model has problems. For one group to pay more, they are doing it for approval. For one group to pay less or nothing, they are doing it to either justify dissatisfaction, they are broke as a joke, or they want someone to pay for them. If it's for dissatisfaction, the game needs to leave the playing field or the players need to leave. If they are broke, they need to take on a cheaper hobby and quit living outside their means or putting on airs that they have means. If they want someone to pay for them, they are the ones I especially consider road dirt - that's not emotion, it's basic judgement against someone being a bottom dweller. Society doesn't like people that don't try. Emotion is when I support them and say - oh just till they get back on their feet. We haven't even dipped into the marketing aspect of all this. Sub games are a limited cost yet micro-transaction game have no ceiling on what can be paid. Who wins on that side when you can program the game to need the things you put in the micro-transaction shop. How is this not obvious to other people. Surely I'm not the only one seeing the connection that you make something as a gateway to sell something else. I'm not, others have noted it.

I'm most def. INTJ, I've taken the test over and over in schools. Don't even think you know what I know about this, I hang out with some indie devs that have plenty of insight. I am, in fact, making my own game. I wouldn't discuss it if I thought I had bad views and it weren't thoroughly researched. When it all falls apart there's only one thing people will be saying. You didn't go unwarned that it couldn't stand up for itself. Maybe that link didn't help you understand anything. "Does it work" isn't the focus here. The pertinent INTJ feature is the "morale cause" aspect which led you to believe it was bitterness. We speak strongly on things that alert us and others read as something different. The best way I can explain it is a need to warn others when you know the house is on fire instead of running out the door and saving yourself alone.

I feel like I'm repeating myself and you aren't adding anything that means you aren't listening - now you are bringing up specific games when the discussion was about the whole of the pie. Getting into specific games is just going to make this tread longer.

 

 

  Dogblaster

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

2/24/13 2:49:34 PM#155
For all I care, people that want to play free games can go pick up sticks and rocks and play cowboys and indians in the woods. That's a free game. Tainting MMOs with the need to be free to satisfy slackers that want to be involved in grown folks bidness but can't afford it can head on down the road to cheapo town.

This xD Exactly this ...

 

By the way.. Are those rocks and sticks F2P? They might not want to pay subscription for it, 12 bucks too much.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11920

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

2/24/13 2:50:07 PM#156
Originally posted by greenreen

This is bigger than you think. It's akin to political debate in the opinions held. This isn't the first discussion on it. There are people around here that act like free games are the greatest thing since sliced bread and drop studies like this to "prove" it. They make these debates exist because they walk around flaunting not paying anything as if it's a model that can last forever while saying from the other side of their mouths that they pay nothing.

You don't see there's a lot of assumption and emotion there and not much fact?

Has any product in history ever sold because someone gave 90% of it away.

  • Razors
  • Printers
  • Mobile Phones
EDIT: removed the rest of my post because this is all getting far too weird.

 

  BeansnBread

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5542

2/24/13 2:54:52 PM#157
Originally posted by greenreen

Incorrect.

Logic is as stated.

I expect to be paid for programming - I expect to pay others for programming. Nothing emotional about that. This is a skill just like a plumber earns. I don't work on my own pipes, I pay others to bring in their expertise. I would never have the nerve to call them up and say - it's broken - can you fix it for free.

There is no logic breach.

F2P is not free, someone is paying for it. Someone is not paying the same for it, that is how I know the model has problems. For one group to pay more, they are doing it for approval. For one group to pay less or nothing, they are doing it to either justify dissatisfaction, they are broke as a joke, or they want someone to pay for them. If it's for dissatisfaction, the game needs to leave the playing field or the players need to leave. If the are broke, they need to take on a cheaper hobby and quit living outside their means. If they want someone to pay for them, they are the ones I especially consider road dirt.

I'm most def. INTJ, I've taken the test over and over in schools. Don't even think you know what I know about this, I hang out with some indie devs that have plenty of insight. I am, in fact, making my own game. I wouldn't discuss it if I thought I had bad views and it weren't thoroughly researched. When it all falls apart there's only one thing people will be saying. You didn't go unwarned that it couldn't stand up for itself. Maybe that link didn't help you understand anything. "Does it work" isn't the focus here. The pertinent INTJ feature is the "morale cause" aspect. We speak strongly on things that alert us and others read as something different. The best way I can explain it is a need to warn others when you know the house is on fire instead of running out the door and saving yourself alone.

I feel like I'm repeating myself and you aren't adding anything that means you aren't listening - now you are bringing up specific games when the discussion was about the whole of the pie. Getting into specific games is just going to make this tread longer.

You are repeating yourself.

 

As an INTJ, you have completely missed the thinking part and went straight to judging. I'm really happy for you that you think you are warning everyone of the eminent downfall of F2P gaming - it probably feels good to be so right about something. But at least back it up with something more than - I am an INTJ type personality and we are always right about things with or without any evidence.

 

This is a good example of your strong bias and lack of evidence. You say:

 

"For one group to pay less or nothing, they are doing it to either justify dissatisfaction, they are broke as a joke, or they want someone to pay for them."

 

Since none of those are true for me, you are obviously looking over at least one segment of the population and focusing on your own perception of what MUST be true about gamers that play for free or very little. You assume assume assume and then back up your claims by saying that you understand things better or differently. After all, you are "making a game." You must have a greater understanding. I'm not buying it and no one else should either.

 

Not liking the F2P model is one thing - that I can understand. But the doom and gloom speech about the downfall of F2P during it's enormous expansion is not only premature, but to me at least, ludicrous.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  User Deleted
2/24/13 3:02:26 PM#158

I'm not a terribly huge fan of the f2p model generally, but the way I see it is why would I spend money to play say, World of Warcraft, when I could play EQ2/Vanguard/Aion/any free to play themepark clone and get more or less the same experience in terms of gameplay?

 

I believe if something genuinely unique and polished came out that plenty of the current f2p playerbase would be willing to pay a subscription for it. I'm not entirely up to date with how strong Eve Online is running these days, but I think that's a good example of one of the few largely sub based games still running strong. Unless everyone is playing off plex now or something.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11920

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

2/24/13 3:10:46 PM#159
Originally posted by Wolfenpride

I'm not a terribly huge fan of the f2p model generally, but the way I see it is why would I spend money to play say, World of Warcraft, when I could play EQ2/Vanguard/Aion/any free to play themepark clone and get more or less the same experience in terms of gameplay?

I believe if something genuinely unique and polished came out that plenty of the current f2p playerbase would be willing to pay a subscription for it. I'm not entirely up to date with how strong Eve Online is running these days, but I think that's a good example of one of the few largely sub based games still running strong. Unless everyone is playing off plex now or something.

EVE is doing pretty damn amazing. Yeah, I'm biased, but seriously... lots of new players, expansions that seem to be making the veteran players happy, a universe that has expanded beyond platform boundaries, and a playerbase across both platforms that is just absolutely kickass.

 

Again, I'm biased, but it seems to be doing pretty damn amazing. :D

 

  greenreen

Elite Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1428

2/24/13 3:22:08 PM#160
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by greenreen

Incorrect.

Logic is as stated.

I expect to be paid for programming - I expect to pay others for programming. Nothing emotional about that. This is a skill just like a plumber earns. I don't work on my own pipes, I pay others to bring in their expertise. I would never have the nerve to call them up and say - it's broken - can you fix it for free.

There is no logic breach.

F2P is not free, someone is paying for it. Someone is not paying the same for it, that is how I know the model has problems. For one group to pay more, they are doing it for approval. For one group to pay less or nothing, they are doing it to either justify dissatisfaction, they are broke as a joke, or they want someone to pay for them. If it's for dissatisfaction, the game needs to leave the playing field or the players need to leave. If the are broke, they need to take on a cheaper hobby and quit living outside their means. If they want someone to pay for them, they are the ones I especially consider road dirt.

I'm most def. INTJ, I've taken the test over and over in schools. Don't even think you know what I know about this, I hang out with some indie devs that have plenty of insight. I am, in fact, making my own game. I wouldn't discuss it if I thought I had bad views and it weren't thoroughly researched. When it all falls apart there's only one thing people will be saying. You didn't go unwarned that it couldn't stand up for itself. Maybe that link didn't help you understand anything. "Does it work" isn't the focus here. The pertinent INTJ feature is the "morale cause" aspect. We speak strongly on things that alert us and others read as something different. The best way I can explain it is a need to warn others when you know the house is on fire instead of running out the door and saving yourself alone.

I feel like I'm repeating myself and you aren't adding anything that means you aren't listening - now you are bringing up specific games when the discussion was about the whole of the pie. Getting into specific games is just going to make this tread longer.

You are repeating yourself.

 

As an INTJ, you have completely missed the thinking part and went straight to judging. I'm really happy for you that you think you are warning everyone of the eminent downfall of F2P gaming - it probably feels good to be so right about something. But at least back it up with something more than - I am an INTJ type personality and we are always right about things with or without any evidence.

 

This is a good example of your strong bias and lack of evidence. You say:

 

"For one group to pay less or nothing, they are doing it to either justify dissatisfaction, they are broke as a joke, or they want someone to pay for them."

 

Since none of those are true for me, you are obviously looking over at least one segment of the population and focusing on your own perception of what MUST be true about gamers that play for free or very little. You assume assume assume and then back up your claims by saying that you understand things better or differently. After all, you are "making a game." You must have a greater understanding. I'm not buying it and no one else should either.

 

Not liking the F2P model is one thing - that I can understand. But the doom and gloom speech about the downfall of F2P during it's enormous expansion is not only premature, but to me at least, ludicrous.

LOL, I had to laugh at that always right.

So stop beating around the bush - what reason is it that you aren't paying them the same as a sub game? If you are the rare person that is not like the others, give me the reason that you aren't paying what you would for a sub game - be it more or less. Tell the world why you should pay less. What made you so aware that 15 bucks a month is too much, nay 5 a month is too much to pay a month (runescape). Clue me in because I don't read minds even though I am all powerful in other regards :P Careful - it can't be a complaint about something or that would be dissatisfaction.

I don't assume anything that hasn't come from human lips, on this forum and others, and from others in real life. You think the dev that I know who went platinum with a flash game never gave me any ideas on how people purchase games. You let me explain my different personality. I'd like to understand your different spending pattern. Stop playing footsies. I will report the info back to that dev.

 

 

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