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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Tab-Targetting PLEASE...

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218 posts found
  Canan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/10
Posts: 90

2/23/13 7:00:54 PM#61
Originally posted by dethlord
Originally posted by Canan
Please use tab targeting. Action based games, in my experience, just turn into mashing buttons over and over.

same with tab targetting games, it just has you hit tab before you begin mashing.

What tab targetting does is relieve you of tracking your target and lowers the skill required to maintain a focus on the same target.  

It makes the games easier for people who have a hard time keeping track of a target WHILE ALSO keeping track of all the other apects of gameplay. 

Tab targetting lowers the potential skill cap in a game and the only reason to do that is to make the game more accessible to the lowest common denominator.

 

No. As a person who has played and enjoyed both genres I can gladly inform you of your bias opinion. 

  Smorak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/07
Posts: 62

What man is a man that does not make the world better?

2/23/13 7:16:09 PM#62
Originally posted by dethlord
Originally posted by Canan
Please use tab targeting. Action based games, in my experience, just turn into mashing buttons over and over.

same with tab targetting games, it just has you hit tab before you begin mashing.

What tab targetting does is relieve you of tracking your target and lowers the skill required to maintain a focus on the same target.  

It makes the games easier for people who have a hard time keeping track of a target WHILE ALSO keeping track of all the other apects of gameplay. 

Tab targetting lowers the potential skill cap in a game and the only reason to do that is to make the game more accessible to the lowest common denominator.

 

If you notice, none of these non "tab targetting" games ever use more than a handful of skills.

P.S. "Tab targetting" is not a system of a game.  It is an option, a tool, for the player.

  Satarious

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/08
Posts: 1045

2/23/13 7:30:44 PM#63
I'm going to have to side with the anti-"tab targeting" crowd.  To me, "tab targeting" breeds laziness and encourages anti-strategic behavior.  So, instead of picking out that squishy or healer, you end up attacking a tank because he's the first guy your tab target lands on.  And it's probably not very productive to keep beating on a tank when he keeps getting healed up by that annoying Cleric.  When you get this type of behavior on a mass scale, it just ends up turning into a numbers game:  The side with the bigger disorganized zerg wins out over the smaller disorganized zerg.  That gets old pretty quick.  Strategy is what will make epic battles between zergs actually FUN, imho.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

2/23/13 7:39:06 PM#64

Perhaps the biggest myth in MMORPG gaming is that a game like TERA takes more 'skill' than a game like WoW.

Its true to a certain extent, for the beginner.  Someone not used to gaming at all will pick up WoW better than TERA.  However when we get to an intermediate player, things stat to even out.  And when it comes to the master players...well a game like WoW has about 20 valid PvP classes (Ret Paladin vs Holy Paladin might as well be two different classes for instance). To be a top PvPer you need to know those classes inside and out, all their situational abilities, all their cooldowns.  When you compare WoW and TERA, the class complexity just cant compare.  TERA's classes are more basic, and there are fewer of them.

Then you look at a game like DAoC, and its 40+ classes and different possible builds for each.  Thats a lot to know, and to be good you have to know it all.

And its not like a game like WoW is any less mobile.  And anyone who says something like 'pressing 1-2-3' is confirmed to be clueless about the subject, because unless you are facing a complete idiot there is no such thing as a rotation in PvP.  (There is rarely a rotation in PvE either, its a priority system and the fight often throws off any rhythm you might have with it anyway).

  Stiler

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

2/23/13 7:46:35 PM#65
Originally posted by fiftyplusgeek
Originally posted by Canan
I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

It means nothing. I've always been amazed that people manage to use the phrase 'skill-based' and MMO in the same sentence without laughing.

When people use the term "skill based" it refers mainly to the skill of player in terms of twitch abilities, aiming, quick thinking, etc.

Tab-target/hotkey systems do take some skill to use, and generally yes, they do have more "abilities"t to use.

However they lack any kind of twitch plaer focused abilitiy, need to aim, keep your target oriented, etc.

A skill based system generally means that you, as the player, are the one who has to aim and thus it's your "player skill" that comes into play, hence the "skill" part in skill based.

Also for people talking about latency, In this day and age most mmo's generally have good servers located in most major countries, from servers on the west/mid/east coast in the US, to Australia/NZ servers, servers in the UK/Russia, etc.

If you make the choice to play on another countries server having higher latency is one offs, it's your choice to do so but don't punish other people by wanting game mechanics to be heled back because you choose to do that.

If games were all still built for 56k modem connections still you'd probably be just as annoyed too by the lack of things moving forward.

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Perhaps the biggest myth in MMORPG gaming is that a game like TERA takes more 'skill' than a game like WoW.

Its true to a certain extent, for the beginner.  Someone not used to gaming at all will pick up WoW better than TERA.  However when we get to an intermediate player, things stat to even out.  And when it comes to the master players...well a game like WoW has about 20 valid PvP classes (Ret Paladin vs Holy Paladin might as well be two different classes for instance). To be a top PvPer you need to know those classes inside and out, all their situational abilities, all their cooldowns.  When you compare WoW and TERA, the class complexity just cant compare.  TERA's classes are more basic, and there are fewer of them.

Then you look at a game like DAoC, and its 40+ classes and different possible builds for each.  Thats a lot to know, and to be good you have to know it all.

And its not like a game like WoW is any less mobile.  And anyone who says something like 'pressing 1-2-3' is confirmed to be clueless about the subject, because unless you are facing a complete idiot there is no such thing as a rotation in PvP.  (There is rarely a rotation in PvE either, its a priority system and the fight often throws off any rhythm you might have with it anyway).

 

Why do you guys get hung up that  no tab targetting, or free aim, or the ability to freely dodge attacks(like in Tera)  means you have to have LESS class choices, abilities, and other things?

Having combat even close to Tera with it's dodging mechanics and the melee ability to "hit" things that aren't specificlaly targetted on, in no way means that you have to hav ethe same classes, an dabilities deisgn as tera, that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COMBAT.

 

Just like WoW, if they wanted, go move to a fre eaim system, have dodging and till have hte same exact classes they have no and all the abilties, etc.

They are not exclusive to each other, do some of you not get this?

  Smorak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/07
Posts: 62

What man is a man that does not make the world better?

2/23/13 7:47:38 PM#66
Originally posted by strangiato2112

Perhaps the biggest myth in MMORPG gaming is that a game like TERA takes more 'skill' than a game like WoW.

Its true to a certain extent, for the beginner.  Someone not used to gaming at all will pick up WoW better than TERA.  However when we get to an intermediate player, things stat to even out.  And when it comes to the master players...well a game like WoW has about 20 valid PvP classes (Ret Paladin vs Holy Paladin might as well be two different classes for instance). To be a top PvPer you need to know those classes inside and out, all their situational abilities, all their cooldowns.  When you compare WoW and TERA, the class complexity just cant compare.  TERA's classes are more basic, and there are fewer of them.

Then you look at a game like DAoC, and its 40+ classes and different possible builds for each.  Thats a lot to know, and to be good you have to know it all.

And its not like a game like WoW is any less mobile.  And anyone who says something like 'pressing 1-2-3' is confirmed to be clueless about the subject, because unless you are facing a complete idiot there is no such thing as a rotation in PvP.  (There is rarely a rotation in PvE either, its a priority system and the fight often throws off any rhythm you might have with it anyway).

/salute

  Canan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/10
Posts: 90

2/23/13 8:43:23 PM#67
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by fiftyplusgeek
Originally posted by Canan
I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

It means nothing. I've always been amazed that people manage to use the phrase 'skill-based' and MMO in the same sentence without laughing.

When people use the term "skill based" it refers mainly to the skill of player in terms of twitch abilities, aiming, quick thinking, etc.

Tab-target/hotkey systems do take some skill to use, and generally yes, they do have more "abilities"t to use.

However they lack any kind of twitch plaer focused abilitiy, need to aim, keep your target oriented, etc.

A skill based system generally means that you, as the player, are the one who has to aim and thus it's your "player skill" that comes into play, hence the "skill" part in skill based.

Also for people talking about latency, In this day and age most mmo's generally have good servers located in most major countries, from servers on the west/mid/east coast in the US, to Australia/NZ servers, servers in the UK/Russia, etc.

If you make the choice to play on another countries server having higher latency is one offs, it's your choice to do so but don't punish other people by wanting game mechanics to be heled back because you choose to do that.

If games were all still built for 56k modem connections still you'd probably be just as annoyed too by the lack of things moving forward.

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Perhaps the biggest myth in MMORPG gaming is that a game like TERA takes more 'skill' than a game like WoW.

Its true to a certain extent, for the beginner.  Someone not used to gaming at all will pick up WoW better than TERA.  However when we get to an intermediate player, things stat to even out.  And when it comes to the master players...well a game like WoW has about 20 valid PvP classes (Ret Paladin vs Holy Paladin might as well be two different classes for instance). To be a top PvPer you need to know those classes inside and out, all their situational abilities, all their cooldowns.  When you compare WoW and TERA, the class complexity just cant compare.  TERA's classes are more basic, and there are fewer of them.

Then you look at a game like DAoC, and its 40+ classes and different possible builds for each.  Thats a lot to know, and to be good you have to know it all.

And its not like a game like WoW is any less mobile.  And anyone who says something like 'pressing 1-2-3' is confirmed to be clueless about the subject, because unless you are facing a complete idiot there is no such thing as a rotation in PvP.  (There is rarely a rotation in PvE either, its a priority system and the fight often throws off any rhythm you might have with it anyway).

 

Why do you guys get hung up that  no tab targetting, or free aim, or the ability to freely dodge attacks(like in Tera)  means you have to have LESS class choices, abilities, and other things?

Having combat even close to Tera with it's dodging mechanics and the melee ability to "hit" things that aren't specificlaly targetted on, in no way means that you have to hav ethe same classes, an dabilities deisgn as tera, that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COMBAT.

 

Just like WoW, if they wanted, go move to a fre eaim system, have dodging and till have hte same exact classes they have no and all the abilties, etc.

They are not exclusive to each other, do some of you not get this?

My point was what "twitch" players consider skill - I do not. I play both styles of games (FPS and Tab) and neither of them require any more skill than the other. To believe otherwise is frankly bias. They are just different. It is disheartening to see so many adamant "twitch" players actually believe those type of games have an Olymipic level skill cap. 

  SiempreLaVerdad

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/13
Posts: 4

2/23/13 8:50:37 PM#68
Originally posted by Qallidexz
Originally posted by SiempreLaVerdad

The majority of arguments I've read in favor of tab-targeting being more skill intensive assume that twitch based systems (free-targeting) have less complex relationships between the skills. If you take a tab-target game like DAoC and introduce a free-targeting system, the game immediately becomes more skill based on a twitch level and therefore increases in overall skill required to be a "good player".

That's not true, because the focus always becomes more about just landing your spell, rather than what spell your going to cast, There's generally FAR less options in these games.

And NO ONE can do both twitch and strategy-based combat, at the same time, as well as they can do just pure strategy, so it becomes a combination of 10 year old CoD player skills, and intelligently strategizing, as oppoesd to just intelligent strategy...

Like I said, and as you stated, there is the assumption that, "generally" these game have less complex relationships between the abilities. That means the developers have made a choice to include more simple abilities. Not that the system inherently require less intellectual skill.  The same stale skill relationships can be programmed into a tab-target system; just as complex relationships can be used in a free-targeting system. Tab-targeting is not inherently more skill based in what it offers to the dynamics of combat, and I would argue, but not here, that it handicaps the potential of a combat system. A player who takes the complexities of a hybrid system at face value sees little more correlation than I must do A to get B, but a good player will be able to react to missing A by using C to setup B while jockeying for proper position.

You're right, as you introduce more cognitive stressors, you increase demand on the player and expand the talent needed beyond solely twitch or intellectual gameplay to a combination of both. Maybe we don't agree on this, but I think all one or the other is less successful than a combination of the two. Tab-targeting is little more than a rotation with small deviations to account for the opposition's skill activations. Add in a twitch mechanic to an existing complex skill system and you maintain the necessity for a thorough understanding of ability interaction, plus reward the player who can use and land the appropriate skills while maintaining position/planning movement.

I generally don't like to mention other games in discussions like these, but refer to something like GW2 that has the addition of rapid movement (twitch) to its tab-target combat system. The player now has to understand how his class/build will interact against the strengths and weaknesses of his opponent, control his character's movement in anticipation of the next events, and also understand his skills well enough to have a "plan B" in case one of his abilities fails to land or his target is able to gain a favorable position.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

2/23/13 9:01:07 PM#69
Originally posted by SiempreLaVerdad
Originally posted by Qallidexz
Originally posted by SiempreLaVerdad

The majority of arguments I've read in favor of tab-targeting being more skill intensive assume that twitch based systems (free-targeting) have less complex relationships between the skills. If you take a tab-target game like DAoC and introduce a free-targeting system, the game immediately becomes more skill based on a twitch level and therefore increases in overall skill required to be a "good player".

That's not true, because the focus always becomes more about just landing your spell, rather than what spell your going to cast, There's generally FAR less options in these games.

And NO ONE can do both twitch and strategy-based combat, at the same time, as well as they can do just pure strategy, so it becomes a combination of 10 year old CoD player skills, and intelligently strategizing, as oppoesd to just intelligent strategy...

Like I said, and as you stated, there is the assumption that, "generally" these game have less complex relationships between the abilities. That means the developers have made a choice to include more simple abilities. Not that the system inherently require less intellectual skill.  The same stale skill relationships can be programmed into a tab-target system; just as complex relationships can be used in a free-targeting system. Tab-targeting is not inherently more skill based in what it offers to the dynamics of combat, and I would argue, but not here, that it handicaps the potential of a combat system. A player who takes the complexities of a hybrid system at face value sees little more correlation than I must do A to get B, but a good player will be able to react to missing A by using C to setup B while jockeying for proper position.

You're right, as you introduce more cognitive stressors, you increase demand on the player and expand the talent needed beyond solely twitch or intellectual gameplay to a combination of both. Maybe we don't agree on this, but I think all one or the other is less successful than a combination of the two. Tab-targeting is little more than a rotation with small deviations to account for the opposition's skill activations. Add in a twitch mechanic to an existing complex skill system and you maintain the necessity for a thorough understanding of ability interaction, plus reward the player who can use and land the appropriate skills while maintaining position/planning movement.

I generally don't like to mention other games in discussions like these, but refer to something like GW2 that has the addition of movement to its tab-target combat system. The player now has to understand how his class/build will interact against the strengths and weaknesses of his opponent and also have a "plan B" in case one of his skills fails to land or his target is able to gain a favorable position.

There are two factors that make a lesser focus on twitch based combat a better option for MMOs:

1. Latency

2. MMOs are geared towards longer play times (fatigue)

  SiempreLaVerdad

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/13
Posts: 4

2/23/13 9:08:53 PM#70
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by SiempreLaVerdad
Originally posted by Qallidexz
Originally posted by SiempreLaVerdad

The majority of arguments I've read in favor of tab-targeting being more skill intensive assume that twitch based systems (free-targeting) have less complex relationships between the skills. If you take a tab-target game like DAoC and introduce a free-targeting system, the game immediately becomes more skill based on a twitch level and therefore increases in overall skill required to be a "good player".

That's not true, because the focus always becomes more about just landing your spell, rather than what spell your going to cast, There's generally FAR less options in these games.

And NO ONE can do both twitch and strategy-based combat, at the same time, as well as they can do just pure strategy, so it becomes a combination of 10 year old CoD player skills, and intelligently strategizing, as oppoesd to just intelligent strategy...

Like I said, and as you stated, there is the assumption that, "generally" these game have less complex relationships between the abilities. That means the developers have made a choice to include more simple abilities. Not that the system inherently require less intellectual skill.  The same stale skill relationships can be programmed into a tab-target system; just as complex relationships can be used in a free-targeting system. Tab-targeting is not inherently more skill based in what it offers to the dynamics of combat, and I would argue, but not here, that it handicaps the potential of a combat system. A player who takes the complexities of a hybrid system at face value sees little more correlation than I must do A to get B, but a good player will be able to react to missing A by using C to setup B while jockeying for proper position.

You're right, as you introduce more cognitive stressors, you increase demand on the player and expand the talent needed beyond solely twitch or intellectual gameplay to a combination of both. Maybe we don't agree on this, but I think all one or the other is less successful than a combination of the two. Tab-targeting is little more than a rotation with small deviations to account for the opposition's skill activations. Add in a twitch mechanic to an existing complex skill system and you maintain the necessity for a thorough understanding of ability interaction, plus reward the player who can use and land the appropriate skills while maintaining position/planning movement.

I generally don't like to mention other games in discussions like these, but refer to something like GW2 that has the addition of movement to its tab-target combat system. The player now has to understand how his class/build will interact against the strengths and weaknesses of his opponent and also have a "plan B" in case one of his skills fails to land or his target is able to gain a favorable position.

There are two factors that make a lesser focus on twitch based combat a better option for MMOs:

1. Latency

2. MMOs are geared towards longer play times (fatigue)

I don't disagree with that opinion. Truth be told, I am prepared to lose fights due to latency if that is the cost of a more intense and immersive combat system, and I've never experience fatigue outside of a FPS, but I totally understand what you are saying and can see how that could be an issue. Having said that, I have to put my opinion out there and debate some of the opposing views in the best interest of the game. I'm prepared to enjoy whatever system gets elected.

  Qallidexz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/12
Posts: 269

 
OP  2/23/13 9:54:58 PM#71
Originally posted by Tumblebutz

-The "this takes skill and that doesn't" comments add nothing to the discussion.  Nor do the comments accusing any players of being "kiddies."  Come on, this isn't a thread about Stealth!

-"Tab targetting" doesn't refer to the literal use of Tab to acquire a target, but rather to the selection of a target (by tab or click) and the automatic aim of a skill or ability at that target.  As opposed to aiming a skill or ability at an area or in a direction which the intended target may or may not inhabit.  At least that's the way I understand it... am I wrong?

-I don't believe either system requires more or less skill, nor do I believe one system is inheirantly better than the other.  I would prefer a tab-target component at the least because it allows for greater complexity and sophistication of skills and abilites including combinations and chains. 

-Free form targetting restricts the level of complexity in that it makes it much easier to miss landing a skill or ability, thus destroying the opportunity to land any type of combination or chain.  This will make necessary the more spammable nature of skills and, quite probably, a reduced repertoire of skills and abilities.

-Latency will ALWAYS be a huge issue in PvP.  Mitigating its effect is paramount to a successful game.  Tab-targetting has a greater ability to mitigate the effects of latency, afaik.

-I'm not opposed to a kind of hybrid system.  In actuality, DAoC had a hybrid system in that some skills were "ground target" spells and thus mimicked a "free form" targeting system, in a sense.  I hate to make this comparison, but think of LoL... it uses a kind of hybrid system, albeit in a different type of play where LoS issues are not as prevalent.

 

This is a great post. In regards to the GTAoE spells, those are a bit different, since it covers an area of effect, the player isn't required to aim as much, and doesn't necessarily have to center his AoE effect upon an enemy player.

  dwarflordking

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/05
Posts: 276

2/23/13 9:58:58 PM#72

people really like boring ass auto everything combait,

 

i rather aim and fire then have it home and a dice roll determining if ive hit or not... 

  Canan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/10
Posts: 90

2/23/13 10:20:54 PM#73
Originally posted by dwarflordking

people really like boring ass auto everything combait,

 

i rather aim and fire then have it home and a dice roll determining if ive hit or not... 

Auto everything combat? Just because you don't have to always aim and mash a button in tab targeting games doesn't mean it is only "boring ass auto everything." Seriously, what an uninformed assumption. Humanity can be quite frustrating. 

  Qallidexz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/12
Posts: 269

 
OP  2/23/13 11:17:33 PM#74
Originally posted by Canan
Originally posted by dwarflordking

people really like boring ass auto everything combait,

 

i rather aim and fire then have it home and a dice roll determining if ive hit or not... 

Auto everything combat? Just because you don't have to always aim and mash a button in tab targeting games doesn't mean it is only "boring ass auto everything." Seriously, what an uninformed assumption. Humanity can be quite frustrating. 

Yea, dwarf's post really has no basis in reality, anyways, I think free-form targeting sounds better on paper, but tab-targeting is actually better in practice (with MMO's), that's why all the new MMO'ers, First Persion Shooter players, and Single Player RPG's players, are demaning free-form targeting, in games where it makes sense, it's cool, not in MMORPG's...

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

2/23/13 11:51:28 PM#75

I don't think the people that are asking for true action combat mechanics understand the system at all in a game designed for very large scale PvP.  The system might work fluidly in a PvE game, but when there's 100 plus people are all moving, casting, attacking, and jumping..  do you guys HONESTLY think an action based system is going to work?  Answer truthfully.

Each action has to be translated from server to client and back to server.  Each individual player's computer has to draw the polygons, display the spell effects, and communicate to the server in relationship with other player clients.  It's a recipe for disaster, even if this is 2013. 

I'd be surprised if more than 50% of the people asking for true action "aiming" combat played Dark Age of Camelot back when the average user had an 800mhz with 512mb of ram and a video card that is on average as powerful as the most mediocre low end 'gaming ready' laptop that doesn't have an actual video card inside it.

It truly boggles my mind.  I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2.

It's also important to note that the primary MMO that people are referencing, TERA, was originally a South Korean MMO.  What specifically differs in South Korea compared to North American style games across practically all genres types?  APM.  If you've never heard of it, it's called Action Per Minute.  

Here's a video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbpCLqryN-Q

Sure, it's a video showing Starcraft APM .. but it's still rather relevant.  Korean ported MMOs typically play completely different verse North American alternatives.  Is it a 'wrong' format?  Absolutely not, but it heavily supports the 'run around like an idiot circle strafing' style of play.

This discussion truly boggles my mind.  I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2.  But, I really, really feel that the same people that are asking for aiming systems have no clue on how game development/programming or network infrastructures even work.  I really, really hope Mark Jacobs makes an announcement regarding specifics on the combat engine soon.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  kryllen

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/04
Posts: 26

2/24/13 2:17:39 AM#76
Call me crazy - but I want to play an MMO not an FPS - so please keep the FPS crap out of the game. FPS's are horrible skill-lite at best. Usually it boils down to map knowledge and ability to see the guy before he sees you....oh and whoever can spray and pray faster.

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  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

2/24/13 2:23:07 AM#77


Originally posted by kryllen
Call me crazy - but I want to play an MMO not an FPS - so please keep the FPS crap out of the game. FPS's are horrible skill-lite at best. Usually it boils down to map knowledge and ability to see the guy before he sees you....oh and whoever can spray and pray faster.

don't forget rocking the OP shit!

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  Vindicar

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 137

Dun Mock meh engliesh !

2/24/13 2:45:56 AM#78

Very nice topic,  one that could divide a whole game community.

Gratz .

 

Gameplays evolves and changes, mostly.

Gameplays are easely 50 to 80% responsible for enjoying or not a game. And enjoyement in a MMO is really subjectiv !

In my opinion , old school tab-targetting-attacking is getting very old. I can enjoy it only in very smooth and fast-paced MMOs.

Actionish gameplay are the future , get used to it.

I am personnaly glad of what gameplays game editors are trying to manufacture since let's say... AoC... even if AoC failed I liked what FC tryed there.

 

Imagine SWTOR with actionish-FPSish gameplay ? A la Jedi Knight ! Would no longer be the same crappy boring game we all know  and most of us get really tired of tab-=targetting since EQ and the others firsts complete MMOs.

And YES of course I understand how tab-targeting does better with lag... BUT THIS IS PROBABLY THE ONLY PROS FOR IT !

Old school french hardcore whiner. Online since T4C.

I was "Namless" and "Daroot" in AO (Rk2)
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  Asellia

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/21/04
Posts: 151

2/24/13 3:06:18 AM#79

First of all, I do prefer a more twitch-based/free aim system over one where you simply have to hit tab, and use some skills. While I am going to try not an argue "skill-level" itself, I do feel having to memorize a bunch of skill descriptinos is not exactly a difficult thing. Nor is aiming at people, really.

 

In my opinion, a hybrid system could be quite good. Targeting can be fun, but perhaps make it so rather then make attacks home in; targeting will make it so you simply fire/aim/swing in their general direction. On top of this, having cover (That you can use), actual blocking (With directions), and so on could be a lot of fun. I know Chivalry, Mount and Blade, ect, all have great melee combat, that isn't as simple as "lol spam attack" unless the target is very new. You need to block in certain directions if parrying, and the environment plays a humungous part.

 

Seeing a system where for example, you could set an area on fire, to make an enemy route around; or take cover for awhile, then they cast a ice storm over you, making you have to get out, and so on, could be a lot of fun. Having to think does NOT require 20000 skills to be memorized. That isn't exactly thinking either, just memorization. Strategy comes in MANY forms.

  Qallidexz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/12
Posts: 269

 
OP  2/24/13 3:13:08 AM#80
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

I don't think the people that are asking for true action combat mechanics understand the system at all in a game designed for very large scale PvP.  The system might work fluidly in a PvE game, but when there's 100 plus people are all moving, casting, attacking, and jumping..  do you guys HONESTLY think an action based system is going to work?  Answer truthfully.

Each action has to be translated from server to client and back to server.  Each individual player's computer has to draw the polygons, display the spell effects, and communicate to the server in relationship with other player clients.  It's a recipe for disaster, even if this is 2013. 

I'd be surprised if more than 50% of the people asking for true action "aiming" combat played Dark Age of Camelot back when the average user had an 800mhz with 512mb of ram and a video card that is on average as powerful as the most mediocre low end 'gaming ready' laptop that doesn't have an actual video card inside it.

It truly boggles my mind.  I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2.

It's also important to note that the primary MMO that people are referencing, TERA, was originally a South Korean MMO.  What specifically differs in South Korea compared to North American style games across practically all genres types?  APM.  If you've never heard of it, it's called Action Per Minute.  

Here's a video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbpCLqryN-Q

Sure, it's a video showing Starcraft APM .. but it's still rather relevant.  Korean ported MMOs typically play completely different verse North American alternatives.  Is it a 'wrong' format?  Absolutely not, but it heavily supports the 'run around like an idiot circle strafing' style of play.

This discussion truly boggles my mind.  I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2.  But, I really, really feel that the same people that are asking for aiming systems have no clue on how game development/programming or network infrastructures even work.  I really, really hope Mark Jacobs makes an announcement regarding specifics on the combat engine soon.

 

Yea, this guy nailed it. +1

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